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Featured The orgins of Yahweh

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by nillesson, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. nillesson

    nillesson New Member

  2. nomadictheist

    nomadictheist Alive in Christ

    My take is simple:

    We can either believe the Bible, or modern scholarship on this issue. The Bible says God created the heavens and the earth - that this same God set aside Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel, to become a great nation and to become His people. That this same God sent Moses to deliver His people from Egypt. That this same God sent His son to die on the cross as a ransom for many.

    If we believe modern scholarship that Yahweh is not the Creator of heaven and earth, but only a lesser God given authority by a greater God (this, by the way, was introduced in a slightly different form as early as the first century A.D. by gnostic heretics), then there is no point to being a Christian, as such a God has no power to do all that the scriptures promise.

    I choose to believe the Bible, and have seen no compelling reason not to do so yet.
  3. xpower

    xpower Newbie

    Do NOT get information about God from wikipedia ever! Anyone can write anything about any subject they want on wikipedia.You can literally go there right now, sign up and write/edit anything. A lot of the information on wikipedia is incorrect about a great many subjects and some people will tell outright lies on there.
  4. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

    The living God, El Elyon, God Most High, the God of Israel, the God of the Bible has no beginning or end. It is written all throughout His Word, repeatedly. He is Creator, not "created.
  5. ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

    ImAllLikeOkWaitWat Everything starts with the man in the mirror

    United States
    In Relationship
    A more powerful God than the one in the bible can't exist. Either the God of the bible doesn't exist or there are no other Gods.
  6. Wgw

    Wgw Pray For Brussels!

    Eastern Orthodox
    I suspect our God was inadvertantly and incorrectly worshipped as part of a pantheon during various periods in which the ancient hieratic religion became corrupt (requiring restoration by the likes of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Ezra and so on).
  7. cgaviria

    cgaviria Well-Known Member

    United States
    YHWH is an angel, a high ranking angel that brought forth the old covenant, before the new covenant of Iesou Christ.
  8. Wgw

    Wgw Pray For Brussels!

    Eastern Orthodox
    And who created this "high ranking angel"?
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

    United States
    In order to properly evaluate the claim could you substantiate with Holy Scriptures from TaNaKh (OT) and confirmed in the NT?
  10. cgaviria

    cgaviria Well-Known Member

    United States
    The son of God. And the son of God by the Father.
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

    United States
    The mountain of evidence from the OT and NT is that YHWH is the One True God and not a lesser divine being as you assert 'a high ranking angel.'

    For clarity to avoid confusion with those not familiar with the Hebrew or Hebrew lexicon, YHWH is offered as LORD in most English translation versions, which creates some confusion at times. In some Hebrew Bibles and Orthodox Jewish Bibles YHWH is rendered "HaShem" The Name. With that so we are all on the same sheet of music, here is the lexicon for LORD:

    LORD: H3068 - Yĕhovah

    יְהֹוָה Yᵉhôvâh, yeh-ho-vaw'; from H1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jeho-vah, Jewish national name of God:—Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.


    Isaiah 44:6: More than a 'high ranking angel.'

    6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. (ASV)

    There is no distinction between the Jehovah (YHWH) of Isaiah 44 and the Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:

    7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

    12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. (NKJV)

    Compare with:

    Daniel 7:

    13 “I was watching in the night visions,
    And behold, One like the Son of Man,
    Coming with the clouds of heaven!
    He came to the Ancient of Days,
    And they brought Him near before Him.

    14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
    That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    Which shall not pass away,
    And His kingdom the one
    Which shall not be destroyed

    We also see in Isaiah 40 YHWH is no angelic creature:

    Isaiah 40:

    9 O Zion,
    You who bring good tidings,
    Get up into the high mountain;
    O Jerusalem,
    You who bring good tidings,
    Lift up your voice with strength,
    Lift it up, be not afraid;
    Say to the cities of Judah, “Behold your God!”

    10 Behold, the Lord God shall come with a strong hand,
    And His arm shall rule for Him;
    Behold, His reward is with Him,
    And His work before Him.
    11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd;
    He will gather the lambs with His arm,
    And carry them in His bosom,
    And gently lead those who are with young.

    12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand,
    Measured heaven with a span
    And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure?
    Weighed the mountains in scales
    And the hills in a balance?
    13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
    Or as His counselor has taught Him?
    14 With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,
    And taught Him in the path of justice?
    Who taught Him knowledge,
    And showed Him the way of understanding?

    15 Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
    And are counted as the small dust on the scales;
    Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
    16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
    Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.
    17 All nations before Him are as nothing,
    And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.

    18 To whom then will you liken God?
    Or what likeness will you compare to Him?
    19 The workman molds an image,
    The goldsmith overspreads it with gold,
    And the silversmith casts silver chains.
    20 Whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution
    Chooses a tree that will not rot;
    He seeks for himself a skillful workman
    To prepare a carved image that will not totter.

    21 Have you not known?
    Have you not heard?
    Has it not been told you from the beginning?
    Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
    22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
    And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
    Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
    And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
    23 He brings the princes to nothing;
    He makes the judges of the earth useless.

    24 Scarcely shall they be planted,
    Scarcely shall they be sown,
    Scarcely shall their stock take root in the earth,
    When He will also blow on them,
    And they will wither,
    And the whirlwind will take them away like stubble.

    25 “To whom then will you liken Me,
    Or to whom shall I be equal?” says the Holy One.
    26 Lift up your eyes on high,
    And see who has created these things,
    Who brings out their host by number;
    He calls them all by name,
    By the greatness of His might
    And the strength of His power;
    Not one is missing.

    27 Why do you say, O Jacob,
    And speak, O Israel:
    “My way is hidden from the Lord,
    And my just claim is passed over by my God”?
    28 Have you not known?
    Have you not heard?
    The everlasting God, the Lord,
    The Creator of the ends of the earth,
    Neither faints nor is weary.
    His understanding is unsearchable.

    Once again YHWH more than an angelic being:

    Isaiah 60:

    19 “The sun shall no longer be your light by day,
    Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you;
    But the Lord will be to you an everlasting light,
    And your God your glory.

    20 Your sun shall no longer go down,
    Nor shall your moon withdraw itself;
    For the Lord will be your everlasting light,
    And the days of your mourning shall be ended.
    21 Also your people shall all be righteous;
    They shall inherit the land forever,
    The branch of My planting,
    The work of My hands,
    That I may be glorified.
    22 A little one shall become a thousand,
    And a small one a strong nation.
    I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time.” (NKJV)

    Isaiah 6:

    In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:

    “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
    The whole earth is full of His glory!”

    4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

    5 So I said:

    “Woe is me, for I am undone!
    Because I am a man of unclean lips,
    And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
    For my eyes have seen the King,
    The Lord of hosts.”

    YHWH not a "higher ranking angel" as evidenced here as YHWH (LORD) is God:

    1 Chronicles 29:

    10 Therefore David blessed the Lord before all the assembly; and David said:

    “Blessed are You, Lord God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever.
    11 Yours, O Lord, is the greatness,
    The power and the glory,
    The victory and the majesty;
    For all that is in heaven and in earth is Yours;
    Yours is the kingdom, O Lord,
    And You are exalted as head over all.

    12 Both riches and honor come from You,
    And You reign over all.
    In Your hand is power and might;
    In Your hand it is to make great
    And to give strength to all.

    13 “Now therefore, our God,
    We thank You
    And praise Your glorious name.
    14 But who am I, and who are my people,
    That we should be able to offer so willingly as this?
    For all things come from You,
    And of Your own we have given You.
    15 For we are aliens and pilgrims before You,
    As were all our fathers;
    Our days on earth are as a shadow,
    And without hope.

    16 “O Lord our God, all this abundance that we have prepared to build You a house for Your holy name is from Your hand, and is all Your own. 17 I know also, my God, that You test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness.

    There are many more to provide if interested.
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

    United States
    Can you please point out how you came to this conclusion.

    So far I am tracking you see:

    God the Father uncreated

    Son of God created how?

    and a high ranking YHWH angelic being which later becomes Jesus Christ?
  13. cgaviria

    cgaviria Well-Known Member

    United States
    Creation cannot be inhabited by the Father, as the Father is infinite, and any place in creation is finite,
    So if creation cannot be inhabited by the Father, then certainly the angel that spoke to Moses from within the burning bush and referred to himself as YHWH is not the Father,
    This angel identified himself by name, YHWH. This angel is YHWH.
  14. cgaviria

    cgaviria Well-Known Member

    United States
    Because a “son” wisely describes a birthing into existence, as a son does not come into existence before a father nor at the same time as a father, but only after a father, and since time did not come into existence until day one of creation in “the beginning”, thus anyone declared to be a son has therefore come into existence from day one of creation or any day onward, and we see this same truth conveyed in this declaration,
    So before “today”, God was not a father to this son, why? Because before “today” the son did not exist to thus be fathered as a son. It was when the son came into existence, “today”, that God then became a father to this son, and since we know that this particular son existed in the beginning, therefore “today” refers to day one in the beginning of creation.

    And, YHWH did not become Jesus Christ, there are two separate beings. Even in the Genesis account between chapters 1 & 2 we see a distinction in beings. "God said", chapter 1, then "the LORD God" in chapter 2. 2 distinct beings, yet one foreshadows the other, one is greater than the other. One came into existence through the other.
  15. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    That Angel(messenger) is the Messiah before he was born as a human
  16. Commander Xenophon

    Commander Xenophon Member of the Admiralty

    Eastern Orthodox
    God can empty himself, and place Himself into creation in various ways. We see this in the Incarnation of the Word, at the Nativity where God was born of a woman. We see this at Theophany, where on the occasion of the baptism of Christ, we encounter all three persons: our Lord in the flesh, the Holy Spirit as a dove, and the Father, audibly.

    Setting aside for a moment the false logic that led to this error on your part, the burning bush could have been the Spirit, who also descended in the form of cloves of fire on Pentecost. The Spirit is God and a discrete, single person, after all.

    No, because the Greek text of John 1:3 makes it clear that the Lord made all things, including time. So He could not have been begotten on day one; day one is also a nonsensical concept for an eternal being. For He was with the Father in the beginning, meaning that He was begotten out of time, before time if you will.


    Today means this day, Monday where I live. So this means Jesus Christ is eternally begotten. God does not speak in riddles; He would have said "On the first day of creation, I begat thee" instead of "This day I have begotten thee." Past tense versus present.

    See, this is how you get yourself into doctrinal trouble: in your eagerness to defend a theological position you previously define, you extrapolate additional positions which are increasingly untenable, to the point where as of right now, most non-Trinitarians who otherwise share your Macedonian theology would disagree with you.
  17. cgaviria

    cgaviria Well-Known Member

    United States
    This is a false doctrine, to suggest that Iesou Christ was YHWH that appeared to Moses, because even YHWH spoke and said,
    So obviously, Iesou was not YHWH, as YHWH declared that Iesou would be raised up by YHWH. Two distinct beings.
  18. cgaviria

    cgaviria Well-Known Member

    United States
    God can empty himself as if he were a bucket? How foolish to say, as if he had limits to thus be emptyable. He himself does not inhabit the work of his own hands, which is why he has made images of himself, and thus through his images he figuratively inhabits his own creation. Iesou Christ walked on the earth as an image of the Father, and thus when Christ walked the earth, the Father walked the earth figuratively.
  19. JackRT

    JackRT "Karma" can bite you in the butt Supporter

    I agree. Early Judaism was not originally monotheistic. As you just pointed out Yah was one of the pantheon of middle eastern gods but he was the only god the Hebrews were permitted to worship. This is known as henotheism. It evolved into monotheism but we still see traces of henotheism in the oldest scriptures.
  20. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    United States
    Moses wrote that he & others saw the God of Israel

    “Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.”
    ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    How did they see God, when no man has ever seen The Father?

    Who did they see?

    “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬


    Since nobody can see God and live, how did they see him and live?
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