The orgins of Yahweh

[roamer_1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahwe...29:_El.2C_Yahweh.2C_and_the_origins_of_Israel

the orgins of yahweh before judaism is that he was one of many gods. he was called a war god. yahweh was given israel, every god got a nation. Canaanite religion - the predecessor to judaism was not monotheistic. whats your take on this?

Michael Heiser has done some good work on this ... His 'Unseen Realm' stuff is excellent... And several lectures on it are on Youtube. He's kinda dry... but extremely informative.

Here is a decent interview with Josh Peck:

Deut 32:8-9 must be studied...

In short, the account you are relying on is the propaganda of Fallen ones, and if one reads the origin stories of the nations, one will find this shtick to be familiar.

It was YHWH that assigned the various nations to the various elohim... not according to the 'sons of Israel', but rather, according to the Sons of God.

It is unfortunate that western rationalism denies the supernatural - otherwise the literal sense would better inform us of the supernatural.

 

[cgaviria]

Moses wrote that he & others saw the God of Israel

“Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

How did they see God, when no man has ever seen The Father?

Who did they see?

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬

I already told you, they saw the angel YHWH. The glory of YHWH is lesser because it was only beheld on Mount Sinai by a select few people, whereas the glory of Iesou, who is greater than YHWH, will be beheld by the entire world. The name of the angel YHWH was the name used by those of the old covenant to seek the Father, yet now we are given a new name, the name of Iesou, for a new and better covenant.

 

[Dkh587]

I already told you, they saw the angel YHWH. The glory of YHWH is lesser because it was only beheld on Mount Sinai by a select few people, whereas the glory of Iesou, who is greater than YHWH, will be beheld by the entire world. The name of the angel YHWH was the name used by those of the old covenant to seek the Father, yet now we are given a new name, the name of Iesou, for a new and better covenant.

They saw the God of Israel. You say they saw the Angel. Is the Angel the God of Israel? And what is the name of the God of Israel?

 

[cgaviria]

They saw the God of Israel. You say they saw the Angel. Is the Angel the God of Israel? And what is the name of the God of Israel?

This angel was indeed God, have you not read,

There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. (Exodus 3:2 [NIV])

When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am." (Exodus 3:4 [NIV])

The reason this angel is God is not because this angel was the Father, but because this angel was granted authority to be as God, as even in similar fashion, Moses was also granted authority to be as God,

Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [NASB])

God is well pleased in giving those that are his authority over his own creation, its in fact the very point God has engendered sons, to grant them authority over the work of his hands. And thus the Father is glorified in being represented by those whom he gives authority, yet each is given a different measure of authority, and Iesou Christ has been given the greatest measure of authority.

 

[Dkh587]

This angel was indeed God, have you not read,



The reason this angel is God is not because this angel was the Father, but because this angel was granted authority to be as God, as even in similar fashion, Moses was also granted authority to be as God,


God is well pleased in giving those that are his authority over his own creation, its in fact the very point God has engendered sons, to grant them authority over the work of his hands. And thus the Father is glorified in being represented by those whom he gives authority, yet each is given a different measure of authority, and Iesou Christ has been given the greatest measure of authority.

according to you: the Angel is God and his name is YHWH, yet there is another God above this angel named YHWH that created him(the Angel) and gave him the name YHWH. Who is this God, and what is His name?

 

[Commander Xenophon]

God can empty himself as if he were a bucket? How foolish to say, as if he had limits to thus be emptyable.

God is almighty. When he in the person of the Word emptied Himself and took onto Himself our fallen human nature, the infinite became finite, the boundless, bounded, the uncircumscribable, circumscribed.

He himself does not inhabit the work of his own hands,

God put on our corruptible human nature in order to render it incorrupt; God became man so that we might become god.

which is why he has made images of himself, and thus through his images he figuratively inhabits his own creation.

He literally inhabits His own creation in the person of the Lord. He is God after all; all powerful, and it is His creation. He can do with it whatever He wants.

Iesou Christ

As a Greek Orthodox let me be the first to reassure you that writing "Jesus" is not incorrect.

walked on the earth as an image of the Father, and thus when Christ walked the earth, the Father walked the earth figuratively.

God walked on the Earth actually as Jesus Christ.

 

[roamer_1]

The reason this angel is God is not because this angel was the Father, but because this angel was granted authority to be as God, as even in similar fashion, Moses was also granted authority to be as God,

No...This explains it all (remember who is speaking):

Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ​

 

[redleghunter]

Creation cannot be inhabited by the Father, as the Father is infinite, and any place in creation is finite,

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! (1 Kings 8:27 [NIV])

The above verse was the license of a supplicant (Solomon) who is invoking that God indeed be present with them.

As we see here:

2 Chronicles 7:

When Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the temple 2 And the priests could not enter the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord’s house. 3 When all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord on the temple, they bowed their faces to the ground on the pavement, and worshiped and praised the Lord, saying:

“For He is good,
For His mercy endures forever.”​

4 Then the king and all the people offered sacrifices before the Lord. 5 King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand bulls and one hundred and twenty thousand sheep. So the king and all the people dedicated the house of God.​

I will add, it is God's creation. He can do anything in it, out of it and for it. With God nothing is impossible.

So if creation cannot be inhabited by the Father, then certainly the angel that spoke to Moses from within the burning bush and referred to himself as YHWH is not the Father,

You must have missed the passages (not verses, but multiple passages) where I clearly outlined "LORD" is "YHWH" and the passages where the One True God is called YHWH. That's the simplicity of it right there in the OT. You have to wrest the scriptures to come up with your YHWH is a lesser heavenly being theory.

This angel identified himself by name, YHWH. This angel is YHWH.

Thus we come to the source of confusion. If one does not look to the full Scriptures to seek out the Nature of Jesus Christ as the begotten (not created) Son of God, then they get these Angel of the LORD verses entirely incorrect.

When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am." (Exodus 3:4 [NIV])

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself fully known to them. (Exodus 6:3 [NIV])
​

Actually, those two verses above don't help your cause at all. Exodus 6:3 explicitly states God Almighty is speaking AND now will reveal Himself more than He did with the patriarchs. On Exodus 3:4 there is no indication there are two entities present outside of The One True God YHWH.

​

 

[redleghunter]

Because a “son” wisely describes a birthing into existence, as a son does not come into existence before a father nor at the same time as a father, but only after a father, and since time did not come into existence until day one of creation in “the beginning”, thus anyone declared to be a son has therefore come into existence from day one of creation or any day onward, and we see this same truth conveyed in this declaration,


So before “today”, God was not a father to this son, why? Because before “today” the son did not exist to thus be fathered as a son. It was when the son came into existence, “today”, that God then became a father to this son, and since we know that this particular son existed in the beginning, therefore “today” refers to day one in the beginning of creation.

And, YHWH did not become Jesus Christ, there are two separate beings. Even in the Genesis account between chapters 1 & 2 we see a distinction in beings. "God said", chapter 1, then "the LORD God" in chapter 2. 2 distinct beings, yet one foreshadows the other, one is greater than the other. One came into existence through the other.

Taking one verse from a Psalm, which is a prayer or song BTW, and creating a theology of The Son was created by The Father is dangerous. Muslims do that often with Holy Scriptures. You have no explicit evidence to show your theory is valid.

I already showed you several passages where YHWH was named "God." The Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 confusion by some is because they don't understand the macro and micro--Personal relationship God has with His Creation.

Genesis 1: God creates and commands

Genesis 2: God creates and commands focus on the creation made in His Image...Man and Woman.

Wherever in TaNaKh you see God interacting with mankind on a personal level, you will see YHWH used. Whether it is good-His Grace or not so pleasant--His Judgment and Wrath. Which is fulfilled in the NT with YHWH manifest in the flesh as the Son of God Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

 

[cgaviria]

Taking one verse from a Psalm, which is a prayer or song BTW, and creating a theology of The Son was created by The Father is dangerous. Muslims do that often with Holy Scriptures. You have no explicit evidence to show your theory is valid.

I already showed you several passages where YHWH was named "God." The Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 confusion by some is because they don't understand the macro and micro--Personal relationship God has with His Creation.

Genesis 1: God creates and commands

Genesis 2: God creates and commands focus on the creation made in His Image...Man and Woman.

Wherever in TaNaKh you see God interacting with mankind on a personal level, you will see YHWH used. Whether it is good-His Grace or not so pleasant--His Judgment and Wrath. Which is fulfilled in the NT with YHWH manifest in the flesh as the Son of God Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

The psalms are not just songs, they are prophecies and also reveal much spiritual truth. Any spiritual person can read the psalms and discern this.

 

[cgaviria]

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! (1 Kings 8:27 [NIV])

The above verse was the license of a supplicant (Solomon) who is invoking that God indeed be present with them.

As we see here:

2 Chronicles 7:

When Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the temple 2 And the priests could not enter the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord’s house. 3 When all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord on the temple, they bowed their faces to the ground on the pavement, and worshiped and praised the Lord, saying:

“For He is good,
For His mercy endures forever.”​

4 Then the king and all the people offered sacrifices before the Lord. 5 King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand bulls and one hundred and twenty thousand sheep. So the king and all the people dedicated the house of God.​

I will add, it is God's creation. He can do anything in it, out of it and for it. With God nothing is impossible.



You must have missed the passages (not verses, but multiple passages) where I clearly outlined "LORD" is "YHWH" and the passages where the One True God is called YHWH. That's the simplicity of it right there in the OT. You have to wrest the scriptures to come up with your YHWH is a lesser heavenly being theory.





Thus we come to the source of confusion. If one does not look to the full Scriptures to seek out the Nature of Jesus Christ as the begotten (not created) Son of God, then they get these Angel of the LORD verses entirely incorrect.

When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am." (Exodus 3:4 [NIV])

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself fully known to them. (Exodus 6:3 [NIV])
​

Actually, those two verses above don't help your cause at all. Exodus 6:3 explicitly states God Almighty is speaking AND now will reveal Himself more than He did with the patriarchs. On Exodus 3:4 there is no indication there are two entities present outside of The One True God YHWH.

​

Will a man of God pray false things? Solomon spoke the truth concerning the Father, that the heaven of the heavens cannot contain him. To try to discredit this statement because it was spoken in the context of a prayer is ridiculous.

 

[Wgw]

Will a man of God pray false things? Solomon spoke the truth concerning the Father, that the heaven of the heavens cannot contain him. To try to discredit this statement because it was spoken in the context of a prayer is ridiculous.

We have treated upon this previously at some length. And herein I once again find myself reminding chaps of the vital ontological distinction between the divine essence of zgod and the assumed humanity of the prosopon; the former "a boundless sea of being," "the fullness of all qualities and perfections in their highest and infinite form," and the latter created, bounded, lowly; the fallen human nature was restored, exalted and glorified by God dwelling in it. Hence, "Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days."

Also, by the way, I feel I should direct you to the etymology of the name "Jesus," which is a variant of Joshua or Yeshua as the Messianic Jews are keen to point out, meaning "YHWH Saves."

This name would be rather meaningless if YHWH were a mere angel inferior to our Lord.

 

[redleghunter]

So obviously, Iesou was not YHWH, as YHWH declared that Iesou would be raised up by YHWH. Two distinct beings.

Perhaps you should review the above statement and re-engage when you can explain it with more clarity. Because as you wrote such, 'it' is not so obvious.

The Messianic Christians have a bridge or cure for the quoted misunderstanding. I am not Messianic but showed you in this post (http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-orgins-of-yahweh.7933258/#post-69294039) their basic argument (not assertion) but argument for YHWH is God. Isaiah 44:6 is clear on this as revealed by God to Isaiah. It was one of those "thus saith the LORD" moments in history and recorded for us to see.

The second point the OT (TaNaKh) and Messianics point out is that Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ) is YHWH manifest in the flesh. They humbly go no further. They don't have to because the Word of God confirms this (see Isaiah 44:6 again). Then look at the other passages I posted (http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-orgins-of-yahweh.7933258/#post-69294039) and the fog clears. We see the attributes of LORD (YHWH) God from Isaiah 44:6 throughout the OT and NT in the mentioned attributes of the God the Father, Son of God/Son of man and Holy Spirit. All attributes of the One True God.

 

[Wgw]

Perhaps you should review the above statement and re-engage when you can explain it with more clarity. Because as you wrote such, 'it' is not so obvious.

The Messianic Christians have a bridge or cure for the quoted misunderstanding. I am not Messianic but showed you in this post (http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-orgins-of-yahweh.7933258/#post-69294039) their basic argument (not assertion) but argument for YHWH is God. Isaiah 44:6 is clear on this as revealed by God to Isaiah. It was one of those "thus saith the LORD" moments in history and recorded for us to see.

The second point the OT (TaNaKh) and Messianics point out is that Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ) is YHWH manifest in the flesh. They humbly go no further. They don't have to because the Word of God confirms this (see Isaiah 44:6 again). Then look at the other passages I posted (http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-orgins-of-yahweh.7933258/#post-69294039) and the fog clears. We see the attributes of LORD (YHWH) God from Isaiah 44:6 throughout the OT and NT in the mentioned attributes of the God the Father, Son of God/Son of man and Holy Spirit. All attributes of the One True God.

The early Church, epitomized by the ardent St. Athanasius, concurred. Here is what the Pillar of Orthodoxy had to say about the eternal deity of our Lord:

1. AT his suggestion then ye have maintained and ye think, that "there was once when the Son was not;" this is the first cloke of your views of doctrine which has to be stripped off. Say then what was once when the Son was not, O slanderous and irreligious men [Note A]? If ye say the Father, your blasphemy is but greater; for it is impious to say that He was "once," or to signify Him by the word "once." For He is ever, and is now, and as the Son is, so is He, and is Himself He that is, and Father of the Son. But if ye say that the Son was once, when He Himself was not, the answer is foolish and unmeaning. For how could He both be and not be? In this difficulty, you can but answer, that there was a time, when the Word was not; for your very adverb "once" naturally signifies this. And your other, "The Son was not before his generation," is equivalent to saying, "There was once when He was not," for both the one and the other signify that there is a time before the Word.

2. Whence then this your discovery? Why do ye, as the heathen rage, and imagine vain words against the Lord and {196} against His Christ [Ps. ii. 1.]? for no holy Scripture has used such language of the Saviour, but rather "always" and "eternal" and "co-existent always with the Father." For, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [John i. 1.]. And in the Apocalypse he [Note B] thus speaks; Who is and who was and who is to come [Apoc. i. 4.]. Now who can rob "who is" and "who was" of eternity? This too in confutation of the Jews hath Paul written in his Epistle to the Romans, Of whom as concerning the flesh Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever [Rom. ix. 5.]; while silencing the Greeks, he has said, The visible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal Power and Godhead [Ib. i. 20.]; and what the Power of God is [Note C], he teaches us elsewhere himself, Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God [1 Cor. i. 24.]. Surely in these words he does not designate the Father, as ye often whisper one to another, affirming that the Father is His eternal power. This is not so; for he says not, "God Himself is the power," but "His is the power." Very plain is it to all that "His" is not "He;" yet not something alien but rather proper to Him.

Source:

http://newmanreader.org/works/athanasius/original/discourse1-2.html

 

[redleghunter]

This is a false doctrine, to suggest that Iesou Christ was YHWH that appeared to Moses, because even YHWH spoke and said,


So obviously, Iesou was not YHWH, as YHWH declared that Iesou would be raised up by YHWH. Two distinct beings.

If we get Isaiah 44:6 and following correct, the above should not seem a conflict as you point out. For Iesou Christou is Jesus Christ in our language and Yeshua Hamashiach to the folks in Israel in 1st century AD. At the point of time YHWH speaks in Exodus in your quote, He is not yet manifest in the flesh as Iesou Christou but The Word (LOGOS). And it is revealed the Word is Christ the Son of God:

As we see here:

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[redleghunter]

God can empty himself as if he were a bucket? How foolish to say, as if he had limits to thus be emptyable. He himself does not inhabit the work of his own hands, which is why he has made images of himself, and thus through his images he figuratively inhabits his own creation. Iesou Christ walked on the earth as an image of the Father, and thus when Christ walked the earth, the Father walked the earth figuratively.

God tells us in Exodus 20 not to worship images. Only God is to be worshipped. That is why Jesus Christ (Iesou Christou)
did not refuse worship and glory when given by men and women:

Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.
Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.
Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.
Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.
Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.
John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").

 

[cgaviria]

God tells us in Exodus 20 not to worship images. Only God is to be worshipped. That is why Jesus Christ (Iesou Christou)
did not refuse worship and glory when given by men and women:

Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.
Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.
Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.
Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.
Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.
John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").

We are instructed to not worship graven images, there is a difference. A graven image has no power, it does nothing. However, whoever God appoints to be honored, who images himself, that is who we need to worship, and thus Iesou was appointed as the one we must worship to worship the Father.

 

[redleghunter]

I agree. Early Judaism was not originally monotheistic. As you just pointed out Yah was one of the pantheon of middle eastern gods but he was the only god the Hebrews were permitted to worship. This is known as henotheism. It evolved into monotheism but we still see traces of henotheism in the oldest scriptures.

Please provide evidence for the above. Thank you.

The historical record is Israel devolved into pagan practices. There's an entire 'book' on this called the TaNaKh.

 

[redleghunter]

according to you: the Angel is God and his name is YHWH, yet there is another God above this angel named YHWH that created him(the Angel) and gave him the name YHWH. Who is this God, and what is His name?

Indeed a good scope of the confusion.

 

[redleghunter]

The psalms are not just songs, they are prophecies and also reveal much spiritual truth. Any spiritual person can read the psalms and discern this.

Yes the Psalms are chock full of Messianic prophecies no argument there. However, your hallmark "day the Son was created" using that one verse in Psalms does not make a theology. It may support your theological approach to such, but you have given no other references.

I am not Baptist but they have a very good principle. One does not make good theology from one verse not even just two.