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The order of seals, trumpets and vials (or bowls)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by _Dave_, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    There is controversy about whether the three types of judgments in Revelation are concurrent or consecutive. I'll show in detail below why it is obvious that the events are consecutive.

    John is called up to heaven to witness end times events in God-time as they are unfolding on the earth, and in heaven. You'll notice that almost all of the events begin with the conjunction "and." And each seal opening, trumpet sounding and vial pouring is followed by a specific action, one after another, escalating in intensity until "it is done."

    As the events beginning with Chapter 6 start to unfold here is what John witnesses:

    The seals

    Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb (Jesus) opened one of the seals ... a man on a white horse went forth conquering
    Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal ... and there went out a red horse
    Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal ... and I beheld, and lo a black horse
    Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal ... a pale horse, and power was given unto them to kill a quarter of those on the earth
    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal ... and they (the slain) cried out with a loud voice
    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal ... great earthquake, sun and moon, stars, mountains and islands, hide us from the face of Him
    Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal ... silence in heaven, voices, thunderings, lightnings and earthquakes, seven angels with trumpets prepare to sound

    It's important to note that the seal openings could only occur in consecutive order and one at a time because of the way that ancient scrolls were sealed as sections, like chapters in a book. One cannot be read without reading the previous ones first after breaking each consecutive seal.

    And then the trumpet judgments are introduced by the last of the seals, and the vial judgments are introduced by the last of the trumpets. That's consecutiveness, not concurrentness.

    The trumpets

    Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded ... hail and fire mingled with blood, third of trees and all grass burned up
    Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded ... great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood, third of creatures in sea and ships destroyed
    Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded ... Wormwood made water bitter and many men died
    Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded ... a third of sun, moon and stars darkened, warning by angel of the three trumpets yet to sound
    Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded ... locusts out of the smoke of the pit tormented those without the seal of God
    Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded ... and four angels accompanied by horsemen killed a third of all on the earth
    Rev 11:15 and 16:1 And the seventh angel sounded ... the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Voice telling the seven angels to pour out their vials.

    The vials

    Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial ... grievous sores upon men who had the mark of the beast and worshiped him
    Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial ... upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea
    Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial ... and rivers and fountains became blood
    Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial ... and the sun scorched men like fire
    Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial ... darkness and men tormented by sores
    Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial ... dried up the river Euphrates to prepare for the great battle
    Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial ... earthquakes and lightnings like never before, cities fell, mountains and islands destroyed, 100-pound hail stones, a voice from heaven saying it is done.

    There can be no question that each seal opening, trumpet sounding and vial being poured out occurred consecutively and in the order given, interspersed with activity of varying duration both on earth and in heaven. Each judgment escalates until the final "it is done," and total destruction.
     
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  2. truthisfreedom2019

    truthisfreedom2019 New Member

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    Dave, I agree with you, it is consecutive. If you read it carefully the beast does not rise until after the seventh trumpet is sounded. The seven trumps that sound acquired after the opening of the seventh seal. The sixth seal is the coming of the Lord, so to be looking for the beast and his mark before the sixth seal is broken seems wrong. Jesus in the gospels does not hint of such an extended period of judgment. 2 Petters 3:7,10,12. refers to judgment and destruction to being a day. God bless you Dave. Do not fear the truth, seek it with all your heart and God will be there.
     
  3. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Hello truthisfreedom, what do you mean by the sixth seal is the coming of the Lord?
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Revelation, the Book dictated to John by Jesus, does give a proper sequence of the end times events. With some asides of more details.
    We are given an overview from God's perspective of 7 types of Church's. Note that each one has some Overcomers in them. The true, faithful people of God, His Israelites by faith. Proved by Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16
    Jesus is the Seed, the real Israel and we; His Christian followers are the inheritors of all the promises of God to Israel. Romans 8:16-18

    Jesus opens the Seals, 1 to 5 and we have experienced all the wars, famines and plagues possible, without wiping out humankind completely. The 5th Seal proves it is open, by the souls of all the martyrs since Stephen, kept under the heavenly Altar.
    But as the cosmic events described in the Sixth Seal, have not occurred yet, then this will be the next prophesied event. Proved by how Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61, in the second verse, before:.... and a day of the vengeance of our Lord.
    It is described as a 'coming' of the Lord, but many verses about that terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath make it clear that He will not be seen then. Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:1, Jeremiah 29:30-32

    This world changing disaster, triggered by an attack onto Israel by the Islamic peoples, will set the stage for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
    All as described in Revelation and throughout the Bible, leading up to the 1000 year reign of King Jesus and then the final Judgement of everyone and then Eternity.
    Those found worthy will receive immortality, but the outcome for those whose names are not found in the Book of Life; is annihilation.
     
  5. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Can that be proven? As far as I know, parchment was rolled up and seals would be placed on the edge of the end of the parchment which means the scroll could not be unrolled and read until all seals were broken. If the scroll was laid on a table, there would be 7 seals all in a row and all visible. The next issue is which is the first seal placed on it? The far left one or far right?

    The other issue is which seals were opened and when. It doesn't say the first seal opened was seal number one. It was "one of the seals" which means any of them could have been opened first before the others...ie, not in any chronological order. That's why the return of Christ is depicted in the 6th seal and not the last seal which is where it should be found if the events of the seals were in chronological order. Again, if the scroll was laid on a table, there would be 7 seals all in a row and all visible. Was the middle one opened first? It was just "one of the seals" which means what is given there must be figured out as far as it's chronological place in the timeline of the last days..when does this person on a white horse with a bow go out and conquer?

    And lastly, the biggest shock is the seals show a glimpse of what happens in one of the 7 trumpets...the seals aren't independent events from the trump events. This is why we can see Jesus returning in the 6th seal yet we know in the last or 7th trump he is said to return...and he doesn't return twice so we know the seals speaks of trump events but aren't in order like the trumps are.

    I know no one will see it this way but I have to share it anyways. Have fun.
     
  7. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    What do you mean by Christ returning in the sixth seal?
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    People are confusing the Great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, with the Great Day of the Lord Almighty.
    The first Day, is the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, of the punishment of the nations. Revelation 6:12-17, Psalms 110:5-6, 2 Peter 3:7 and over 100 other prophesies.
    That Day will be seen by the secular survivors as a natural event, so they carry on in their unbelief of God. They will worship the 'beast', but we Christians will live in all of the holy Land and not be part of his One World Govt.

    The second is the Glorious Return of Jesus after all of God's wrath is spent. Revelation 15:1, Revelation 16:14, Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-21

    Thinking that Jesus will destroy the earth, or anything other than simply wiping out the armies at Armageddon and chaining up Satan, is unscriptural error.
     
  9. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Keras,

    What I'm asking is where in the language of the text in this passage do people see Christ returning? And how?
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    The second coming is depicted from the viewpoint of the unsaved in the 6th seal. verses 16-17 show this.
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    The same events are described regarding the return of Christ.

    the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light = the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

    And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth = And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

    and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken = the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together

    hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains = all the tribes of the earth mourn




    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    The same events are described regarding the return of Christ.

    signs in the sun, and in the moon = the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

    and in the stars = And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

    the powers of heaven shall be shaken = the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together

    and upon the earth distress of nations = all the tribes of the earth mourn


    Men's hearts failing them for fear = all the tribes of the earth mourn

    For the great day of his wrath is come = And then shall they see the Son of man coming
     
  12. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    ewk1938 and keras,

    Your scenario has Christ returning before all of the major catastrophic events that will befall mankind and the world in the succeeding trumpet and vial judgments. So, where is Christ planning to hide while the earth is being savaged, pummeled and scorched by His Father. Hadn't Christ been through enough already?

    Or, do you suppose there's a different explanation for the sixth seal and the Matthew 24:29 passage?
     
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    No, the events of the 6th seal happen at the 7th trump, exactly when Christ returns. The 6th trump is simply a preview of what happens when the 7th trump sounds.
     
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Great thread.
    I have separate threads on all 3 of those if any are interested.
    I am doing a verse by verse on the 7 Seals now.


    The SEVEN SEALS of Revelation study

    The First Seal: Rider on a White Horse

    1 And I saw when the Lambkin opens up one out of the seven Seals and I hear one out of the four Living Ones saying as sound of thunder "be coming!
    2 And I looked and behold! a white Horse, and the One sitting on it is having a bow and there was given to Him a crown,
    and He came forth conquering and that He should be conquering.

    The Second Seal: War

    3 And when It opens up the second Seal, I hear the second Living One saying " be coming"!
    4 And came forth another Horse, fiery-red and to Him sitting on it was giving to be taking the Peace out of the land, and that one another they should be slaying.
    And there was given to Him a great Sword.

    The Third Seal: Famine

    5 And when It opens up the third Seal, I hear of the third Living One saying "be coming!
    And I looked and behold! a black Horse and Him sitting on it having a Yoke/Balance in His hand.
    6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four Living Ones saying, "A measure of wheat for a denary and three measures of barley for a denary, and the oil and the wine no thou should be injuring".

    The Fourth Seal: Death

    7 And when It opens up the fourth Seal, I hear a voice of the fourth Living One saying "be coming!’"
    8 And I looked and behold! a pale Horse and Him sitting on it, a name to him the Death and the Hades followed Him.
    And was given to them authority over the fourth of the land, to kill in sword, and in famine and in death and by the beasts of the land.

    The Fifth Seal: Martyrs under the Altar

    9 And when It opens up the fifth Seal, I saw under the Altar the souls of Those slaughtered because of the word of the GOD, and because of the Testimony which they held.
    10 And They cry a great voice saying "till when O Master/Owner, the Holy and the True, not Thou are judging and and avenging Our blood out of those dwelling upon the land?"
    11 And was given to each of Them a White Robe and was declared to Them that they should be resting still little time, till should be fulfilling also their fellow bondservants and their brethren, those being about to being killed as also they.

    The Sixth Seal: Sun, Moon and Stars

    12 And I saw when It opens up the sixth Seal and became a great earthquake and the Sun became black as hairy sackcloth, and the whole Moon became as blood, 13 and the Stars of the heaven fall to the land, as a fig-tree casting it's shriveled figs by a great wind being shaken.
    14 And the heaven coils as a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island out of their places were moved. 15 And the Kings of the land, and the greatest, and the rich, and the Chiefs of thousands, and the strong and every slave and every free one, hide themselves into the caves and into the rocks of the mountains.
    16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks "be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of Him sitting on the throne and from the wrath of the Lambkin.
    17 That came the Day, the great, of Their wrath and who is able to stand?

    The Seventh Seal: Silence in heaven half hour

    Revelation 8
    1 And when It opens up the seventh Seal, became a hush in the heaven as half hour. 2 And I saw the seven Messengers who before the GOD have stood and were given to them seven Trumpets.
    3 and another Messenger came and stood at the Altar, having a golden Censer. And was given to Him many incenses, that He shall be imparting to the prayers of all the Saints on the golden Altar before the Throne. 4 And ascended the smoke of the incenses to the prayers of the Saints out of hand of the Messenger before the GOD. 5 And the Messenger has taken the Censer and cram fills it out of the fire of the Altar and casts it into the land. And became sounds and thunders and lightnings and an earthquake.
    ==========================================
    1st 2 verses:

    The First Seal: Rider on a White Horse and Bow


    Revelation 6:
    1 And I saw when the Lambkin opens up one out of the seven Seals and I hear one out of the four Living Ones saying as sound of thunder "be coming!
    2 And I looked and behold! a white Horse, and the One sitting on it is having a bow<5115> and there was given to Him a crown<4735>,
    and He came forth conquering and that He should be conquering.
    =======================================
    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

    Only 1 other verse in the entire Bible shows a white horse

    Revelation 19:11
    And I saw heaven having been opened and behold! a white Horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

    .....................is having a bow<5115>...............

    5115. toxon from the base of 5088;
    a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow.
    Only occurs in 1 verse of the NT.

    Verses from the OT that contain bow:

    Jer 6:23
    They will lay hold on bow and spear; They are cruel and have no mercy;
    Their voice roars like the sea; And they ride on horses,
    As men of war set in array against you, O daughter of Zion.”

    Hos 1:5
    It shall come to pass in that day That I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”

    Zec 9
    10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim And the horse from Jerusalem;
    The battle bow shall be cut off. He shall speak peace to the nations;
    His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,And from the River to the ends of the earth.'[fn]
    13 For I have bent Judah, My bow, Fitted the bow with Ephraim,
    And raised up your sons, O Zion, Against your sons, O Greece,
    And made you like the sword of a mighty man.
    ========================================
    ==========================================
    Joshua 6 [7 Priests-7 trumpets-shofars] and Revelation [7 Messengers-7 trumpets]

    Revelation 8
    6 And the seven Messengers having the seven Trumpets make ready Themselves that They should be trumpeting<4537>
    ==================
    The First Four Trumpets

    7 And the first-One trumpets, and became hail and fire having been mixed in blood and was cast into the land.
    And the third of the land was burned-up<2618>
    and the third of the trees was burned-up
    and every green grass<5528> was burned-up .

    8 And the second Messenger trumpets, and as a great Mountain to fire burning<2545> was cast into the sea
    and became the third of the sea blood.
    9 And died the third of the creation/creatures<2938> of the in the sea, those haing a soul
    and the third of the ships<4143> were decayed/destroyed<1311

    10 And the third Messenger trumpets;
    and a great burning Star falls out of the heaven, as a torch
    and falls on the third of the rivers and upon the springs<4077> of the waters<5204>
    11 And the name of the Star is being said the un-drink/wormwood<894> and became the third of the waters into un-drink/wormwood.
    And many of the humans died out of the waters that were made bitter<4087>.

    12 And the fourth Messenger trumpets;
    and was eclipsed/struck the third of the sun and the third of the moon and the third of the stars that may be being darkened the third of them
    <4654>
    and the third of the day not may be appearing<5316>,
    and the night likewise.
    ==========
    13 And I saw and I hear an eagle<105> flying in mid heaven, saying to a loud/great<3173> voice,
    "Woe! Woe! Woe! those dwelling on the land out of rest of voices/soundings of the trumpet of the three Messengers of the being about to trumpeting<4534>"

    Revelation 9:

    1 And the fifth Messenger trumpets and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen into the land and was given to him the key of the well of the abyss.
    2 and he opens up the well of the abyss and ascended smoke from out of the well as smoke of a large furnace and is darkened the sun and the air out of the smoke of the well.

    13 And the sixth Messenger trumpets and I hear one voice/sound out of the horns of the Golden Altar of the one before the God.

    Revelation 11:15
    And the seventh Messenger
    trumpets and became great voices/sounds in the heaven saying "became the Kingdom of the world of the Lord of us and of the Christ of Him and He shall be reigning into the ages of the Ages.

    THE SEVEN BOWLS/VIALS IN REVELATION

    ......................................REVELATION 16
    1 And I hear a great sound/voice out of the Sanctuary/Naos<3485> saying to the seven Messengers "be going!<5217> and be pouring out the seven Bowls of the fury of the God into the land.

    2 And came forth the First and pours out His Bowl into the land and became an evil sore<1668> and wicked<4190> upon the men, those having the mark<5480> of the Beast and those worshiping to the image of It.
    3 And the Second pours out His Bowl into the sea and it became blood as of dead one and every soul living died, those in the sea
    4 And the Third pours out His Bowl into the rivers<4215> and the springs<4077> of the waters <5204>and it became blood.
    5 And I hear the Messenger of the waters saying "just thou are, the one being and the one was, the Pious One, that these Thou judge
    6 That bloods of Saints and Prophets they pour out<1632> and blood thou give to them to be drinking which deserving they are being."
    7 And I hear of the Altar saying "yea Lord the God the Almighty, true and just the judgeings of Thee.
    8 And the fourth Messenger pours out His Bowl upon the sun and was given Him to scorch<2739> the men in fire.
    9 And the men are scorched great and they blaspheme<987> the Name of the God the One having the authority upon these blows<4127> and not the repent/reforum <3340> to give glory to Him.
    10 And the Fifth pours out His Bowl upon the throne of the Beast and became the Kingdom of it having been darkened and they gnawed<3145> their tongues out of the misery<4192>
    11 And they blaspheme the God of the heaven out of their miseries and out of their sores and not they repent/reform out of their works.
    12 And the Sixth pours out His Bowl on the river, the great Euphrates and is dried<3583> the water of it/m that may be being made ready of the from rising of sun<395><2246>.
    13 And I saw out of the mouth of the Dragon and out of the mouth of the Beast and out of the mough of the False Prophet three unclean<169> spirits as if frogs.
    14 For they are being spirits of demons doing signs which are going out upon the kings of the whole inhabited land to be together leading <4863> them into the Battle of the Day, the great, of the God the Almighty.
    15 Behold! I am coming<2064> as a thief<2812>. Happy/blessed the one watching<1127> and keeping<5083> his garments<2240> that no naked he may be walking about<4043> and they may be observing the indecency<808> of him.
    16 And they together led them into the place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddon.
    17 And the seventh Messenger pours out His Bowl upon the air<109>
    and came out a great voice out of the Sanctuary of the God saying "it has become<gegonen<1096>!"

    18 And there become lightnings and sounds/voice and thunders and a great earthquake became such as not became from of which men became upon the land.
    19 And became the great City into three parts and the cities of the Nations fall and Babylon the Great is remembered<3415> in view of the God to give to Her the drinkcup<4221> of the wine of the fury of the wrath of Him
    20 And every island fled and mountains not were found.
    21 And great hail<5454> as a talent weight<5006> is descending out of the heaven upon the men and they blaspheme the God out of the blow<4167> of the hail, that great is being the blow of it, tremendous<4970>!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  15. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Correct, but something no many get, the 7 Trumpets come from the 7th Seal and the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe so all of the Judgments are RELEASED in the Seals.

    The Order of the Judgments = the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation from the 3.5 year mark to the Return of Jesus at the 7th Vial. All the other chapters are Parenthetical Citations.

    Their confusion comes all because they don't get that its not in order.

    Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT per se.The 2nd Woe where the Two-witnesses die happened in Rev. 9, the Rev. 11 Seventh Trumpet likewise happens in Rev. 16, it is the 7 Vials or the 3rd Woe. We know this because o the LAST VERSE in Rev. 8, it says the THREE TRUMPS yet to sound are the THREE LAST WOES !! Amen.

    There is a wee bit of difference in the Judgments. The Four Horses Judgments happen over a 42 Month period, it is God RELEASING the Anti-Christ to go forth Conquering.

    The Other Judgments all seem to have specific time limits that happen one after the other. If that makes sense.
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Jesus does not Return until after all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are over. He does actually Return to personally fulfil the Seventh Bowl. Revelation 16:16-18

    It is ewq that makes that mistake, not me.
    Revelation 15:1 plainly states that the wrath of God is over before the Return.
     
  17. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Keras,

    Thank you for clearing that up. And please accept my apology for misreading what you had written. I think I must have combined thoughts from two of your paragraphs in the previous post and came up with the wrong conclusion.
     
  18. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Hello Little Lamb,

    You lost me as soon as I saw that you believe that the rider on the white horse in Rev 6 is Jesus Christ. But that's a different argument, not pertinent to the OP.

    But moving on to answer allegations that the sixth seal is the coming of the Lord, and that Matthew 29:29 is the sixth seal ...

    Anybody who has read my posts knows that I'm fond of saying that whenever there appears to be a contradiction in the Bible we should praise God because it means we can do a more diligent study and learn something from it.

    Revelation 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 are praise God moments.

    The sixth seal apparent contradiction

    Some think that the sixth seal is the second coming of our Lord. There we have an apparent contradiction since the timing is too late to be Christ coming to snatch up the church before the seven-year tribulation, and too early to be His second coming at the end of the Great Tribulation.

    So what do we do about that? It's just a matter of understanding the text in context.

    The first four seals herald unspeakable catastrophes upon the earth and upon mankind ... one fourth killed in just one judgment alone -- the pale horse.

    With the opening of the fifth seal we are given a glimpse into heaven where the martyred saints cry to the Lord, "... with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" They are told to hold on a bit. Then ...

    ... As surviving unrepentant mankind is reeling from the judgments of the first four seals, the sixth seal is opened to a cataclysmic scene of earthquakes, sun and moon going black, stars falling, and mountains and islands moving out of place ... in other words nothing like what these unrepentant humans have ever experienced before.

    They finally realize what is happening, though, that this is God's judgment. They are recalling all the "stories" by Christian "kooks" they heard and rejected about the end times and coming to Jesus before it's too late. They believed the scoffers who said there is no rapture, or those who said there is no end times judgment.

    The first four seal judgment got their attention, but this sixth seal judgment has finally made them realize they are in the hands of an angry God. They realize that Jesus is sitting on His throne in heaven directing the events below. They realize the futility of hiding from God's wrath, but attempt to do it anyway.

    The final verse in Rev 6 is a chilling announcement by God saying, basically, "You aint seen nothing yet. Now my wrath really begins." That heralds the Great Tribulation, a sea change in God's judgment; where before it was God allowing Satan to unleash his four horsemen to bring catastrophic events to mankind and the earth, from now on it will be God Himself committing terrible acts of judgment.

    "For the great day of his wrath is come." The curtain drops on the first judgments, and rises to a different world -- the Great Tribulation -- where God's wrath in the following judgments will be terrible to behold.

    There is no language in the text of Rev 6 -- either by word in context, or by metaphor, or allusion or any other interpretation -- to show that Jesus is anywhere but on His throne in heaven watching and directing the events that unfold below (Rev 6:16).

    The sixth seal cannot speak of the rapture because only His own will see Him, and the unrepentant on earth plea to be able to hide from His face. The sixth seal cannot speak of the second coming because it is too soon; there are still many, many events to unfold before Christ comes to cleave the Mt of Olives and begin His earthly 1,000-year reign on the Throne of David.

    Plus, and this is so obvious, during the sixth seal Christ is on His throne in heaven, and not down below on the earth to be savaged, pummeled, and facing God's wrath. He's been through that already.

    The Matthew 24:29 apparent contradiction

    Now we deal with the interpretation espoused by some that the Matthew 24:29 passage regarding the sun and moon and stars speaks to Christ's second coming at the end of the sixth seal. This appears to be a contraction because on the one hand that passage is clearly a second coming at the end of the tribulation, but it also looks to some like the second coming is a third of the way through the seal, trumpet and vial judgments.

    We praise God for the chance to do some diligent exegesis to understand why this is not a contradiction.

    In Matthew 24:30 there is a clearly worded passage about the coming of Jesus Christ: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

    There simply is no language in Rev 6's sixth seal that matches that passage. Jesus is on His throne in Rev. 6:16, not appearing in clouds, not appearing with power and great glory.

    So where do we see the Matthew 24:30 event play out in Scripture? The second coming, of course, spoken of by the prophets when Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to stand on the Mt of Olives, and sets forth to vanquish the army of unbelievers at the battle of Armageddon.

    There is absolutely no language to suggest this is happening at the time of the sixth seal, it is yet several years into the future.

    Matthew 24:29 says, in part, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, ..."

    Then we are led to Zechariah 14:6 where there is a strange passage about light disappearing just before the great battle. Scripture shows that the battle of Armageddon takes place immediately after the Great Tribulation (Rev 19).

    In summary, the sixth seal is just what it says: The unrepentant trying to hide from the wrath that they now know is from God. The Matthew 29:29-30 passage is clearly an end-of-tribulation scenario precedent to the battle of Armageddon. The only linkage between the two is that they both take place during the seven-year tribulation spoken of by the prophets, and by Jesus Christ Himself, but they are completely separate events.

    So, no contradiction, only misunderstanding by some.
     
  19. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I was still working on that post.
    Perhaps it is the "Son of Man" who is shown on a white cloud in Revelation 14:14 at the great Harvest. So much OT Hebrew symbolism that I have barely cracked the surface, as I will also be going thru the OT.
    I will be going thru each verse and those who are interested should subscribe to it.
    ===================
    I just got thru with the "crowns" in Revelation and this is helping to also harmonize Revelatio

    The SEVEN SEALS of Revelation study

    Zec 6:11
    and thou hast taken silver and gold, and hast made a crown, and hast placed on the head of Joshua son of Josedech, the high priest,
    ==============================
    Luke 21:27
    And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

    Rev 14:14 And I saw and behold! a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden Crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;

    Revelation 6:2 And I looked and behold! a white Horse, and the One sitting on it is having a bow<5115> and there was given to Him a crown<4735>,
    and He came forth conquering and that He should be conquering.
    Rev 9:
    7 And the likenesses of the locusts are like to horses made ready to battle, and upon their heads as Crowns like gold, and their faces as faces of men,

    8 and they had hair as hair of women, and their teeth were as those of lions,
    9 and they had breastplates as breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings is as the noise of chariots of many horses running to battle;
    =====================================
    The Glorious Crown

    2Ti 4:8

    henceforth there is laid up for me the Crown of the Rghteousness that the Lord -- the Righteous Judge -- shall give to me in that day, and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation.
    Jas 1:12
    Happy the man who doth endure trial, because becoming approved, he shall receive the Crown of the Life, which the Lord did promise to those loving Him.
    1Pe 5:4
    and at the manifestation of the chief Shepherd, ye shall receive the unfading Crown of glory.
    =============================
    Crowns in Revelation

    Rev 2:10 Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer, behold! the Devil is about to cast of ye to prison that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Become thou faithful! unto death, and I will give to thee the Crown of the Life.
    Rev 3:11
    Behold I am coming swiftly. Be holding fast which thou are having, that no one may be taking thy Crown.
    Rev 4:4 And around the Throne, are twenty four thrones. And upon the thrones I saw the twenty four Elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and They had upon Their heads Crowns of gold;
    10 - fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their Crowns before the throne, saying,
    Rev 6:2 - and I saw and behold! a white Horse, and He who is sitting upon it is having a bow, and there was given to Him a Crown, and he went forth overcoming, and that he may overcome.

    Not sure if any noticed these locusts/horses are wearing crowns of Gold.

    Rev 9:
    7 And the likenesses of the locusts are like to horses made ready to battle, and upon their heads as Crowns like gold, and their faces as faces of men,
    8 and they had hair as hair of women, and their teeth were as those of lions,
    9 and they had breastplates as breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings is as the noise of chariots of many horses running to battle;

    Rev 12:1
    And a great sign was seen in the heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a Crown of twelve Stars,
    Rev 14:14 And I saw and behold! a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden Crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
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