The only question regarding Matthew 24:15

[ThatTrueLight]

"No I dont, I don't get why anyone would say that"


Yes you do ThatTrueLight

These guys have been taught that humans are already in heaven and have been going there for centuries

And you now why this false belief is

It usually is anything but what scripture says.. Dead give away every time

 

[BABerean2]

"No I dont, I don't get why anyone would say that"


Yes you do ThatTrueLight

These guys have been taught that humans are already in heaven and have been going there for centuries

They do not want to wait for the Lord [1 Corinthians 15:20-23] .... but all must wait [Romans 8]

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Very few believe in the doctrine of "Soul-Sleep" like you do, because we can read what is plainly written in God's Word.

These words are from the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

How could it be any clearer?
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[Straightshot]

"Very few believe in the doctrine of "Soul-Sleep" like you do"


Is the soul of your foot aseep? do you even know what a soul is?

You do not even know what you are talking about .... what does Paul say about those who have "fallen asleep" did David and Stephen fall asleep?

And few people today believe in a flat earth like you do

Your continued banter is the evidence of your struggle to get attention

Can you understand that the dead know nothing and are not aware of time passing on the earth?

 

[BABerean2]

"Very few believe in the doctrine of "Soul-Sleep" like you do"


Is the soul of your foot aseep? do you even know what a soul is?

You do not even know what you are talking about .... what does Paul say about those who have "fallen asleep" did David and Stephen fall asleep?

And few people today believe in a flat earth like you do

Your continued banter is the evidence of your struggle to get attention

Can you understand that the dead know nothing and are not aware of time passing on the earth?

No. I cannot understand it because Jesus said we are made up of both body and soul.
I will take His Word above yours.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Are souls really souls in scripture, or are they only souls if you say so?


Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? These souls are asking a question. That would mean they are aware of their surroundings.


Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. These are souls and they were killed. So what part of them is under the altar?

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[dougangel]

Below is the scriptural proof that this part of the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in the past.


...............................................................................

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described specifically in Mark’s account of the Olivet discourse.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
.................................................................................

Are you saying that in the future those of the modern nation of Israel will beat Christians in the synagogues?

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2 Thessalonians 2 New International Version (NIV)

The Man of Lawlessness

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The lawless one hasn't been revealed. The rapture happens of the same day as the second coming. Just before the destruction of the wicked.

 

[Straightshot]

"The lawless one hasn't been revealed. The rapture happens of the same day as the second coming. Just before the destruction of the wicked."


No .... it happens before the Day of the Lord in which the lawless one will be revealed [2 Thessalonians 2:1]

The false teaching of the day was that the Day of the Lord [His coming judgment] had already come and the Lord's followers thought that they had missed His call to keep them from it

Paul sets them straight

 

[dougangel]

"The lawless one hasn't been revealed. The rapture happens of the same day as the second coming. Just before the destruction of the wicked."


No .... it happens before the Day of the Lord in which the lawless one will be revealed [2 Thessalonians 2:1]

The false teaching of the day was that the Day of the Lord [His coming judgment] had already come and the Lord's followers thought that they had missed His call to keep them from it

Paul sets them straight

1 thess 4

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

who are left until the coming of the Lord
Hmmm why does it say the dead in Christ will rise first ?????????????

 

[Straightshot]

Because these will no be left in the grave when the living are transformed to immortality.... they will be transformed just as the living at the time

 

[dougangel]

Because these will no be left in the grave when the living are transformed to immortality.... they will be transformed just as the living at the time

It doesn't say that. It says the dead in Christ will rise first.
It says the dead in Christ well get resurrected first, then the living will be raptured. When does this happen ? At the coming of the lord !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BABerean2]

It doesn't say that. It says the dead in Christ will rise first.
It says the dead in Christ well get resurrected first, then the living will be raptured. When does this happen ? At the coming of the lord !!!!!!!!!!!!

You are correct. At the beginning of Christ's Second Coming those in Christ are resurrected first.
The following is the symbolic version in the text between Rev. 10:7 and Rev. 11:15.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

(Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. )

(Who are the cultivated and the wild Olive Tree branches grafted together in Romans 11?)


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Resurrection, and then going up to meet Christ coming down.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. I wonder who the remnant could be?

This occurs in the text, near the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

 

[Douggg]

You are correct. At the beginning of Christ's Second Coming those in Christ are resurrected first.
The following is the symbolic version in the text between Rev. 10:7 and Rev. 11:15.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

(Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. )

(Who are the cultivated and the wild Olive Tree branches grafted together in Romans 11?)


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Resurrection, and then going up to meet Christ coming down.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. I wonder who the remnant could be?

This occurs in the text, near the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

I don't think the rapture takes place at the time of the two witnesses because there is nothing in the text accounting for any accompanying mass catching up and any sort of reaction.

In fact, that is a missing element in all of Revelation, any sort of reaction. And there is nothing in Revelation 19 about a mass catching up, changing of them who are alive either.

When John was caught up in Chapter 4, that is mostly likely representative of the Rapture. But where is the reaction by them on earth elsewhere in Revelation, that is the question. Which I think the reaction by them left on earth, and the effects of the mass catching up - is in Revelation 10 - but John was not allowed to write it down.

Revelation 10:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

After the Rapture takes place and the reaction to it by them on earth (if it is indeed contained in the seven thunders), by what the seven thunders uttered, then we get the over-view beginning with the two witnesses 1260 days (first half of the 7 years) and the Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles 42 months (the second half of the 7 years).

I would not conclude for certain that the Rapture takes place before the 7 years begin by the placement of Revelation 10 to Revelation 11, although the rapture certainly could happen before the 70th week begins.... if the Rapture and its effects are contained a separate little book.
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[BABerean2]

I don't think the rapture takes place at the time of the two witnesses because there is nothing in the text accounting for any accompanying mass catching up and any sort of reaction.

In fact, that is a missing element in all of Revelation, any sort of reaction. And there is nothing in Revelation 19 about a mass catching up, changing of them who are alive either.

When John was caught up in Chapter 4, that is mostly likely representative of the Rapture. But where is the reaction by them on earth elsewhere in Revelation, that is the question. Which I think the reaction by them left on earth, and the effects of the mass catching up - is in Revelation 10 - but John was not allowed to write it down.

Revelation 10:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

After the Rapture takes place and the reaction to it by them on earth (if it is indeed contained in the seven thunders), by what the seven thunders uttered, then we get the over-view beginning with the two witnesses 1260 days (first half of the 7 years) and the Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles 42 months (the second half of the 7 years).

I would not conclude for certain that the Rapture takes place before the 7 years begin by the placement of Revelation 10 to Revelation 11, although the rapture certainly could happen before the 70th week begins.... if the Rapture and its effects are contained a separate little book.
.

Missing details in a passage do not mean it is not the same event as another passage.
All of the Gospel accounts of the empty tomb contain different details.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. (They are resurrected to life)
(When great fear fell on those that saw it, would that not be a reaction?)

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
(In Revelation chapter 4 John is called up to heaven in the spirit. However, these are bodily taken up into a cloud. If this is not a rapture event, then what is it? )

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (I do not know what type of reaction you are looking for however, the remnant here do react to what just happened.)

I am amazed that some say John being called up in the spirit, is the rapture of the Church, but the same people totally reject the possibility of the witnesses being killed, resurrected to life, and then bodily taken up into a cloud, as a rapture event.

There is only one explanation. It does not fit John Darby's doctrine.
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[linssue55]

The only question regarding Matthew 24:15 is....

Is the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15 associated with the time of Jesus's return in the clouds of heaven in great Power and Glory...Yes? or No?

When Jesus returns in the clouds, depicts the "Rapture of the Church",... when the dead and the living believers meets the Lord in the air! ((Note: This is NOT the 2nd Advent, for the Lord does NOT touch earth, He
is just there to collect the Christians of the church age to take them home, this is when we (the dead and alive) receive our resurrection bodies. At the END of the T & T is the 2nd Advent, when WE come back with Him riding White Horses.))

THEN the Trial and Tribulation starts it's 7 years......

Matt....{5th Sign of the Tribulation - International Religion infiltrates Israel}
24:15~~"So when you see 'the abomination of desolation'-spoken about by Daniel
the prophet {Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11} . . . standing {histemi} in the holy place (whoever reads/discerns/studies/analyzes . . . keep on understanding it {an order}!) . . . "
{Note: The abomination of desolation is an image of the Roman dictator who commands a Ten (10) nation confederation of Western Europe. He will hold together his empire just as the Augustus Caesar held his empire together as a god. His image will be put up in the Holy of Holies at the halfway point of the tribulation.}
{Note: 'Histemi' does mean to stand. It is in the perfect tense and that makes it have a strong meaning. It means when the Jewish believers in Jerusalem in the Tribulation see this sign . . . they should head for the Mountains! SideNote: At the end of the Tribulation, they are told to stay and fight (Zechariah 14:1-4). The can survive IF they keep their heads and can apply the right doctrine to the right situation!}

 

[Douggg]

Missing details in a passage do not mean it is not the same event as another passage.
All of the Gospel accounts of the empty tomb contain different details.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. (They are resurrected to life)
(When great fear fell on those that saw it, would that not be a reaction?)

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
(In Revelation chapter 4 John is called up to heaven in the spirit. However, these are bodily taken up into a cloud. If this is not a rapture event, then what is it? )

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (I do not know what type of reaction you are looking for however, the remnant here do react to what just happened.)

I am amazed that some say John being called up in the spirit, is the rapture of the Church, but the same people totally reject the possibility of the witnesses being killed, resurrected to life, and then bodily taken up into a cloud, as a rapture event.

There is only one explanation. It does not fit John Darby's doctrine.
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There is a lot more that "details" missing, the very essence is missing, and the reaction worldwide.

In Revelation 11, there is no-one who is living being translated... which is the rapture. The remnant in Revelation 11 react to the dead bodies coming back to life and them ascending into the clouds out of sight. Not to any sort of translation of the living.

The rationale regarding John in Chapter 4 representing the rapture is that it is before the seals are opened. I am not saying that is iron-clad proof of a pre-70th week rapture, but the reaction here on earth may be taking place while the seals (albeit already opened by Jesus) are being enacted.

 

[Douggg]

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[Straightshot]

My comment

The abomination of desolation will appear at the middle of the 70th week decreed for Israel

.... and a believing remnant of Israel will flee into the Jordanian wilderness for the Lord's protection [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

 

[BABerean2]

There is a lot more that "details" missing, the very essence is missing, and the reaction worldwide.

In Revelation 11, there is no-one who is living being translated... which is the rapture. The remnant in Revelation 11 react to the dead bodies coming back to life and them ascending into the clouds out of sight. Not to any sort of translation of the living.

The rationale regarding John in Chapter 4 representing the rapture is that it is before the seals are opened. I am not saying that is iron-clad proof of a pre-70th week rapture, but the reaction here on earth may be taking place while the seals (albeit already opened by Jesus) are being enacted.

Let us look at the famous rapture passage.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (The dead in Christ go up first.)


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(Then we who are alive go up with them second. The 7th trumpet comes only a few verses later at Rev. 11:15.)


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph_6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,


The timing is almost perfect, unless it does not fit your doctrine.

And the mystery is the Church, however it cannot be in this case, if it does not fit your doctrine.
.

 

[Douggg]

Let us look at the famous rapture passage.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (The dead in Christ go up first.)


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(Then we who are alive go up with them second. The 7th trumpet comes only a few verses later at Rev. 11:15.)


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph_6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,


The timing is almost perfect, unless it does not fit your doctrine.

And the mystery is the Church, however it cannot be in this case, if it does not fit your doctrine.
.

Well my personal rapture view is "anytime rapture view" that it could happen anytime between now and when it actually happens. So it has no bearing on my view, except that the rapture should take place before the world is plunged into the great tribulation, based on Luke 21:34-36. Could be before the 70th week begins or after.

One of the problems with tying the rapture to the rise of the two witnesses is that it identifies the timing too exact.... which is counter to the rapture teachings.

The seven thunders in Revelation 10 could easily include a series of trumpets. As well as the voice of the arch-angel. And it doesn't actually say 7th trumpet in the rapture text. That John is told not to write down what the thunders say could be that it is about the rapture, since the rapture and reaction is missing throughout the written down text of Revelation.

 

[BABerean2]

Well my personal rapture view is "anytime rapture view" that it could happen anytime between now and when it actually happens. So it has no bearing on my view, except that the rapture should take place before the world is plunged into the great tribulation, based on Luke 21:34-36. Could be before the 70th week begins or after.

One of the problems with tying the rapture to the rise of the two witnesses is that it identifies the timing too exact.... which is counter to the rapture teachings.

The seven thunders in Revelation 10 could easily include a series of trumpets. As well as the voice of the arch-angel. And it doesn't actually say 7th trumpet in the rapture text. That John is told not to write down what the thunders say could be that it is about the rapture, since the rapture and reaction is missing throughout the written down text of Revelation.

Well, if your view is really "anytime rapture view", this version should fit perfectly.

 

[Douggg]

Well, if your view is really "anytime rapture view", this version should fit perfectly.

If the rapture turns out to take place at the time of the two witnesses rising, it would fit anytime rapture view. I personally think that because there are verses saying "at a time you think not", the likelyhood is lessen. But I would not say that it is not possible.