The only question regarding Matthew 24:15

[BABerean2]

"We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege."


Not like this [Zechariah 14:4-5], or this [Revelation 12:6; 12:14] .... this fleeing is still future for Israel and not a part of 70 AD

And you do not really know about a fleeing in 70 AD .... there is no scriptural account

Below is the scriptural proof that this part of the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in the past.


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The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described specifically in Mark’s account of the Olivet discourse.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
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Are you saying that in the future those of the modern nation of Israel will beat Christians in the synagogues?

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[Berean777]

"We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege."


Not like this [Zechariah 14:4-5], or this [Revelation 12:6; 12:14] .... this fleeing is still future for Israel and not a part of 70 AD

And you do not really know about a fleeing in 70 AD .... there is no scriptural account

Zechariah 14 is describing the heavenly Angelic realm and those who have gotten victory over the mark of the beast by keeping the faith onto death and entering in through the fiest resurrection.

The pudding is in the eating and this is evident as follows:

Zechariah 14:7-8
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord,
not day, nor night:

In this poetic description the author is portraying the timeless heavenly realm as one day, that is as if time stood still. Also the heavenly realm is not dictated by time nor by the cycle of day and night as it was in Genesis.

but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

This language portrays a light that is not from the sun but that from the Lord as it has no sunset and the light is there always.

And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea,
and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be.

Former sea and latter sea relate to the mount of olive that is divided in two, toward the south and towards the North. This sea is the mount of heavenly congregation and angelic hosts of heaven who make up the old covenant saints (former sea) and the new covenant (latter seas).

Also please note that living waters go out from heavenly New Jerusalem all the time regardless if the cycle of seasons as in the case of Genesis.

It should be obvious that Zechariah 14 is describing the angelic heavenly realm where the Holy Ones, the White angelic cloud reside with the LIGHT WHO IS THE Lord.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

It should be obvious that Zechariah 14 is describing the angelic heavenly realm where the Holy Ones, the White angelic cloud reside with the LIGHT WHO IS THE Lord.

It is describing the coming day of the Lord. Even the Apostles speak of its coming.

 

[Berean777]

I don't think there's any documentation of anyone on earth ever seeing Christ returned on the clouds during 70 AD either. Matthew 24:30 said all the tribes on the earth will see Him coming. Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, the Olivet Discourse is clearly about the future. Matthew 24:30 is literal, not a spiritual event, as was the destruction of the temple in 70 AD was literal.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The context of all tribes of the earth will see the Son of man coming in the clouds is not pointing a natural clouds seen by natural eyes. Clouds is a symbol of the Holy Ones that acomoany Christ who are the angelic heavenly host. So if we refer back to the acts of the apostles we come to the understanding that Saint Stephan one of the men of Galilee before being killed witnessed the Son coming with the cloud in heaven and everyone else was oblivious to what he saw because it was a supernatural discernment that Saint Stephan was given just before his death.

If we also note what Jesus said to the chief priest when he told him:

Matthew 26:64
us replied. "But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

It is plainly obvious that the chief priest is one of many peoples to have seen the Lord. How one might say.

Jesus ascended up on high and sat on the right hand of power as the almighty judge and started to judge every peoples of every tribe one by one as they passed on from this earthly life. You know the saying that death will bring you before your maker, well Saint Paul makes a bold statement along those lines:

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

After all the Lord ascended up and sat on the right hand of power as the almighty judge and so death brings all men to their maker for judgement for the works done in the body.

Now the context of all eyes from every tribe shall see him and mourn because of him is clear to understand.

 

[Berean777]

It is describing the coming day of the Lord. Even the Apostles speak of its coming.

I believe the picture being described is in the heavenly realm because there is nothing that would suggest an earthly time based realm.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I believe the picture being described is in the heavenly realm because there is nothing that would suggest an earthly time based realm.

The Day of the Lord is practically EVERYTHING the prophets wrote about with the Apostles affirming the same. Paul warns of men who say it's past.. for obvious reasons.

 

[Berean777]

The Day of the Lord is practically EVERYTHING the prophets wrote about with the Apostles affirming the same. Paul warns of men who say it's past.. for obvious reasons.

There is the Appearing of the Lord as mentioned in:

2 Timothy 4:6-8
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.7I have fought a good fight, I have finished mycourse, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love HIS APPEARING.

You see same like Saint Stephan Paul was ready to be killed, so the Lord's appearing was at hand for him, because the thief (death) was knocking on his door.

There is the Day of the Lord:

Which is the day of vengeance poured out upon the inhabitants of earth by a scorched earth policy that God will initiate from above.

Zechariah 1
15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land

 

[ThatTrueLight]

So what is your play here, that CHRIST has come and that day is past?

 

[Berean777]

The Lord's appearing is for the departed faithful who will not be hindered and the reward for the works done in the earthly body will follow them when they recieve their eternal inheritance as symbolised by the crown of righteousness the Lord will give them. Saint Paul and the faithful will love the Lord's appearing because it is when they have kept the faith onto death. The central theme of Christianity is to be faithful into death, then the appearing of the Lord will be for that faithful who has passed away. So most faithful will love this moment of the lord's appearing.

As opposed to the day of the Lord, no one will love this day, because this is the day of vengeance upon all those who are still living on earth, good and bad. No one will love the day of the Lord, because it is a day of vengeance.

The Lord's appearing is not to be confused with the day of the Lord, these are two different contexts.

Amos 5:18
Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD? That day will be darkness, not light

Yet Saint Paul writes for the appearing of the Lord:

But onto them that also LOVE HIS APPEARING.

 

[Berean777]

So what is your play here, that CHRIST has come and that day is past?

When a faithful person dies whilst keeping the faith, the Lord individually comes for that person. Remember the lord's promise, when he said I will raise you on your last day.

On the contrary it is not past but it has been happening and is happening to every departed soul and will continue to happen until Christ reaps from his grape vine all that he requires for his wedding supper.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

i asked a simple question, is your play here that Christ has come and the day of the Lord past?

Edit: thanks

 

[ThatTrueLight]

When a faithful person dies whilst keeping the faith, the Lord individually comes for that person. Remember the lord's promise, when he said I will raise you on your last day.

On the contrary it is not past but it has been happening and is happening to every departed soul and will continue to happen until Christ reaps from his grape vine all that he requires for his wedding supper.

That's not true, the day of the Lord has not come and can not come until certain things happen.

 

[Berean777]

Central them of Christianity is to keep the faith onto death and then love the Lord's appearing because your eternal inheritance is already laid up for you when you are greeted by the Lord.

As witnesses we must sign out of this life with our own blood by drinking from Christ's bitter cup which is death, then and only then can be recieve the inheritance which is already banked for us by Christ.

Hebrews 9
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Central to CHRIST is actually beliving His word.

It's crystal clear in His word that He hasn't come yet and that THAT DAY has not come.

What reason would anyone have for saying or teaching otherwise?

 

[Berean777]

That's not true, the day of the Lord has not come and can not come until certain things happen.

The day of the Lord is not the same as the appearing of the Lord. The Lord has come for many deoarted faithful and is coming as I write. Saint Stephan being the first new covenant martyre that Christ came for with the heavenly clouds.

There is no visual appearing of the Lord that the world will behold as far as a post resurrection appearance because the disciples clearly rule a physical earthly appearance out as follows:

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Notice that John doesn't know the experience of a post resurrection body but clearly states that when the Lord appears to him and other faithful, the condition of seeing the post resurrection form of the Lord will be when they shall put on that post resurrection body and not before.

The pre resurrection human form cannot see the post resurrection form of the Lord.

And gain disciples confirm this:

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The disciples had seen the Lord already once when they were in their sinful mortal bodies that had the sin of Adam and so the second time without sin is when they put on their sinless post resurrection body and it is at this moment that they can come into the presence of the risen a Lord and not before.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Let's make it clear,

Christ has not come, there have been visions but He hasn't come.

The Day of the Lord has not come.

 

[Berean777]

Central to CHRIST is actually beliving His word.

It's crystal clear in His word that He hasn't come yet and that THAT DAY has not come.

What reason would anyone have for saying or teaching otherwise?

Disciples of Christ taught it and what I have presented thus far is their testimonies.

The Lord himself stated the following:

John 14:19
Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

There is no post resurrection appearance of the Lord that the world will behold, this is contrary to what Jesus said in that the Holy Ghost is here to stay and it necessitated him to leave permanently in order for that to happen.

You cannot have the Holy Ghost present in the world and a post resurrection appearance of the Lord. The only appearing of the Lord that a faithful will behold is only upon death as TESTATORS.

However the unbelieving world will witness the day of the Lord much to their displeasure.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

The Lord has come for many deoarted faithful and is coming as I write.

Not correct, but He shall come and then the dead in Christ shall rise first, and those who are alive shall be caught up with them.

 

[Berean777]

Not correct, but He shall come and then the dead in Christ shall rise first, and those who are alive shall be caught up with them.

Don't you get it friend the dead in Christ are rising first and have been rising first, lol.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Disciples of Christ taught it and what I have presented thus far is their testimonies.

The Lord himself stated the following:

John 14:19
Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

There is no post resurrection appearance of the Lord that the world will behold, this is contrary to what Jesus said in that the Holy Ghost is here to stay and it necessitated him to leave permanently in order for that to happen.

You cannot have the Holy Ghost present in the world and a post resurrection appearance of the Lord. The only appearing of the Lord that a faithful will behold is only upon death as TESTATORS.

However the unbelieving world will witness the day of the Lord much to their displeasure.

Wrong again, the Apostles clearly teach He hasn't come, that day hasn't come, and the resurrection hasn't come... because the resurrection comes when He comes.

Why would you say otherwise?