the Olivet Discourse understood

Jamdoc said:

Donald Trump isn't even remotely from the right region of the world.
and he was elected in 2016, and considering Biden's performance in the debate.. stands a strong chance of being elected in 2024.
Antichrist does not get elected.
he gets appointed.

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Jamdoc said:

No it isn't. Stop letting men who were reading a sealed book tell you what it means.

The Angel Gabriel said that Daniel 8 was an vision of the end.

Daniel 8

Anyone who says this was 300BC, instantly wrong.
as the time of the end could not even be declared in the slightest.. until Pentecost, after the crucifixion.
If it's BC, it's not the time of the end, and therefore disagrees with a divine messenger of God.
Men try their best but in this case, they're in error.
I will outright declare:
That every single person interpreting Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, and 12 as being historic events. Is wrong.
They may be foreshadows. But the true fulfillment of it, is yet future.

With that understanding in mind. Daniel is the book that tells us about the rise of Antichrist to power. The sign that Jesus told us to understand, comes from those chapters of Daniel. When ye see the abomination of desolation.
Not when ye study the historic event of the abomination of desolation.
When ye see it.
It's going to happen shortly before Jesus returns, and there are instructions attached to seeing it happen.

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Jamdoc said:

No it isn't. Stop letting men who were reading a sealed book tell you what it means.

The Angel Gabriel said that Daniel 8 was an vision of the end.

Daniel 8

Anyone who says this was 300BC, instantly wrong.
as the time of the end could not even be declared in the slightest.. until Pentecost, after the crucifixion.
If it's BC, it's not the time of the end, and therefore disagrees with a divine messenger of God.
Men try their best but in this case, they're in error.
I will outright declare:
That every single person interpreting Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, and 12 as being historic events. Is wrong.
They may be foreshadows. But the true fulfillment of it, is yet future.

With that understanding in mind. Daniel is the book that tells us about the rise of Antichrist to power. The sign that Jesus told us to understand, comes from those chapters of Daniel. When ye see the abomination of desolation.
Not when ye study the historic event of the abomination of desolation.
When ye see it.
It's going to happen shortly before Jesus returns, and there are instructions attached to seeing it happen.

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RandyPNW said:

Yes, this is the most common misperception of what Jesus was saying, in my opinion. Language is like that. It isn't perfectly geometric where you can be so precise that every detail is explained as a conversation is in process.

I believe Jesus introduced the main theme, which was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. He could digress without losing his train of thought, that this was about 70 AD. He could mention the Gospel going out to all nations until the end of the age without losing sense that the main issue was what was going to transpire in his generation.

And so, when Jesus said "all these things" will take place, he assumes the listener would understand that the things he was talking about were the things leading up to 70 AD and not peripheral items concerned with his Coming and the end of the age. In fact, Jesus made his Coming a long ways off from his own generation, when the Jewish exile comes to an end.

This is the way we talk today. I will give you an example. I predict Mt. St. Helens is going to erupt. And the signs that it is going to erupt are emissions of smoke, rumblings, and the frequency of these indicators. I may digress to mention that after the eruption people will have fled, and some will die. And much of the greenery will be ruined. Spirit Lake will be devasted.

But then I return to the main subject, which is the prophecy that the volcano will erupt. And so I say, "All these things" will take place before the eruption takes place. Obviously, I'm not referring to people dying, Spirit Lake being ruined, and the greenery destroyed--those things happen after the eruption.

In Jesus' case, he mentions things that obviously happen after 70 AD, the destruction of the Jewish People, including their long exile, the preaching of the Gospel to other nations, etc. But when Jesus returns to the main subject, which was 70 AD, he says "all these things will happen, though the end is not yet."

What he's referring to are the signs that obviously precede the 70 AD event, which he called "Birth Pains." He was not including in them peripheral matters that obviously follow this major event. He was obviously not including his Coming, which follows the 70 AD event by a very long time.

You should recognize, initially, that Jesus started this Discourse by prophesying the 70 AD event--not his 2nd Coming. This statement prompted a response by his Disciples, who asked about this 70 event, and also questioned how it might related to the 2nd Coming, or the Coming of Christ's Kingdom.

And so, the 2nd Coming was peripheral to the main subject Jesus introduced, which was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The major signs introducing this 70 AD were what were on the forefront of Jesus' mind, and should've been on the top of mind of Jesus' Disciples. They wanted to know "when."

So Jesus explained to them that these "Birth Pains" would be signs in their own generation that it was imminent, and not far off. Ezekiel had a similar vision in his book in which Israel thought judgment was far off, but the Prophet said that it was imminent. That was also a major judgment against Jerusalem, coming at that time from the Babylonians.

Eze 12.21 The word of the Lord came to me: 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: ‘The days go by and every vision comes to nothing’? 23 Say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel.’ Say to them, ‘The days are near when every vision will be fulfilled. 24 For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel.

I think you can see how Ezekiel's prophecy parallels that of Jesus? There is the prediction of an imminent judgment in that generation. And there would be false prophecies trying to distract people away from this danger. Jesus warned about "false prophets."

This judgment, coming by the Romans, would be imminent, and all of these Birth Pain signs would be preliminary, and not the end of the age, or related to Christ's 2nd Coming. I hope this helps somebody?

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tailgator said:

Yeap,Jason of Cyrene was wrong and has misled many.Thats why no one pays attention to Daniels prophecy.They believe it was fulfilled long ago even though it is being fulfilled before their eyes.

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tailgator said:

PS
There is a whole chapter to watch before the abomination of desolation is placed in Daniel 11:44.A whole chapter of signs.

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Jamdoc said:

Yes that is why I dispute claims that Donald Trump or King Charles are the Antichrist. Because they don't fit with Daniel 11.

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RandyPNW said:

Regardless of whether you agree or not what your response tells me is that you've completely ignored the argument. That's fine--I thought we were here to discuss and debate things--not ignore the other's arguments. Thanks anyway...

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tailgator said:

Actually they do fit.
The Beirut bombings
Both US/Iraq wars
And our friend who gave us the Obamacare tax.

They are all there You just have to do your homework.


Trump moving the US embassy is there too That is something I learned back around 2003 during the second war.

You should do your homework.

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Jamdoc said:

Yeah.. no. Donald Trump isn't coming as 3rd in succession of a new country that is the northern part of a new Empire that split into 4 after its first king dies.
None of Daniel 11 fits the US, at all.
Where might the US take part? Killing the first emperor of that Javan empire and breaking it into 4 parts.
Because that is a key thing about how Daniel 8/11 does not match Alexander, because the rule of that empire was according to Alexander's dominion, it wasn't any descendants of Alexander as Alexander did not have any heir, but it was divided up by generals that served under him. They were still Greek Generals that ruled according to Alexander's Dominion.
What Daniel 11 says about that is that is that the kingdom is not divided according to the king's dominion. That is, someone from outside divides it up and appoints rulers for each part.
That is.. right out of the US's playbook. Invade a country, topple it, have it's leader killed, and put in a puppet government if they can. That's what they did to Saddam and what they tried to do to Ghaddafi, they call it "Regime Change" and "Nation Building"
I think it'll end up happening to a new Ottoman Empire as well. US will go in with a coalition, destroy the budding empire, and replace leadership in new countries.

From those new countries is where AC will come from, that's part of why he's called the Assyrian. That's the region he comes from.

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RandyPNW said:

I'm not brushing aside anything. This is just the way people talk, even in our own language and today. You are so focused on your own view of this Discourse that you're utterly unable to understand what I'm saying, even though it's completely logical. I'm not even saying I have to be right--you obviously just don't understand the argument.

This has nothing to do with brushing aside all of the issues in the Olivet Discourse. I fully agree that Christ's 2nd Coming is included in this Address because it was one of the questions being asked of Jesus. However, my main point, and I'm sure of it, is that Jesus had set out to focus on the imminent destruction of Jerusalem in his generation. The other matters are not being brushed aside--they are just secondary to what Jesus happened to be focused on at that time.

I could, for example, be talking about who the rider on the White Horse is in Revelation, and someone asks me about when Eternal Life is going to be given to the Church? If I am focused, at present, on who the rider on the White Horse is, then I'm not brushing aside the importance of when Eternal Life is going to be given to the Church. No, I'm just delivering a message on who the rider on the White Horse is as a matter of priority at that time, and not brushing aside the importance of other issues.

The same thing is true here. Jesus was focusing upon the fact the Temple was going to be annihilated, and that Jerusalem was going to be defeated in that generation. He was also asked about the 2nd Coming. Jesus did not brush aside the importance of his 2nd Coming when he continued to focus on the main issue he was dealing with, which was the destruction of Jerusalem. Rather, he focused on that 1st, while relating how his 2nd Coming was not less important but not part of the central point.

So when Jesus spoke of the preliminary Birth Pain signs leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus was not dismissing the importance of his 2nd Coming. Rather, he was referring to his main point and answering the question of "when" to that point 1st. It would take place in that generation, with these signs being preliminary to it. "All these things," ie the signs preliminary to it, would take place 1st, but would not yet be the end of the age. They would lead to the destruction of Jerusalem in that generation, whereas his 2nd Coming would be far off, after a long age of Jewish exile.

What you're saying is that all of these questions and all of these signs must be fit into the category of the last days, which is typical of Futurism. Futurists tend to make everything about the Last Days because they love to predict how contemporary events and past predictions are focused on what will happen next--a kind of prophetic hysteria.

Well, I'm a Futurist, but not an hysterical one. I recognize that some prophecies are past and some are still future. We need to put them into their proper categories. And this is not Preterism vs. non-Preterism. The Early Church Fathers recognized that the Olivet Discourse was focused on Jesus' generation as a matter of priority.

So this is the problem, I'm absolutely convinced. Jesus was focused on the big event of his generation, which was the destruction of the Temple. And the signs he focused upon, therefore, were the signs not of the endtimes, but rather, of the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in his generation. We know this because Jesus said these preliminary signs would happen, "but the end is not yet."

Therefore, his reference to "all these things" did not include everything Jesus mentioned, some of which had to do with Israel's continuing exile, and with his 2nd Coming. These were not "brushed aside" as less important, but rather, relegated to secondary status since Jesus had been focusing primarily on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. But he did explain the relationship of the events of his generation to the events to take place in the future. These things need to be understood separately, and not mashed together.
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Jesus is giving a prophecy specifically for the nation of Israel, anticipating the NT age in which Israel's place will be diminished while her Christian Disciples will have to endure the fall of their nation and the persecution of unbelievers. The "Great Distress" therefore consists of the punishment of the Jewish People in the NT era, while believers at that time were not to expect the end of the age, but rather, the judgment of Jerusalem. Instead of expecting an immediate return of the Messiah, they could expect the invasion of the Roman Army, depicted as "vultures," leading to an age long tribulation of the Jewish People, a punishment upon their sins.

Matt 24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” [70 AD]

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen [70 AD], and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? [endtime]”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. [distractions from 70 AD judgment] 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed [a sign of the impending Roman invasion]. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come [preliminary to the endtimes]. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places [signs of divine displeasure with Israel]. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains [preliminary to 70 AD].

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me [the sins of Israel causing the 70 AD judgment]. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come [endtimes].

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[70 AD] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— [Dan 9] 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress [the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age], unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened [Jewish extinction avoided in the endtimes]. 23 At that time [70 AD] if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man [endtimes]. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather [70 AD].

29 “Immediately after the distress [Jewish Diaspora of the NT age] of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven [endtimes]. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things [Birth Pain signs], you know that it[70 AD] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things [Birth Pain signs] have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Please note that even though endtime matters are brought up Jesus continues to maintain his focus upon the event about to take place, the destruction of Jerusalem. This was a prophet's burden, to warn of impending judgment so that the people can choose to repent beforehand.

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RandyPNW said:

The Book of Revelation does not call the 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist the "Great Tribulation." A Great Multitude comes out of the Great Tribulation, but that Great Tribulation is not defined as the Reign of Antichrist, but rather, depicts the entire age of Tribulation that has characterized Christian persecution and tribulation.

So yes, Jesus himself characterized the Great Tribulation as an age-long punishment of the Jewish People. Since Jesus, in his earthly ministry, was addressing the Jewish People specifically and almost exclusively, he was explaining that once they've largely rejected him as Messiah, and given him over to death, they would lose their homeland, subjecting all Jews, unbelievers and believers both, to an age of homelessness with respect to their Promised Land.

This Tribulation would also be characterized by the Jewish unbelievers rejecting and persecuting their believing brethren, as well as by pagan nations rejecting these believing Jews. And so, heading into the NT era, the Great Tribulation begins as a long age of Jewish failure and punishment, which has become with the expansion of the Gospel a misery foisted upon believers in all nations.

I don't know how many times I have to post it before everybody here sees it, but I will show again that Jesus, in Luke 21, characterized the Great Tribulation as a Jewish Punishment lasting the entire age, beginning with the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman Army, and ending with the Return of Christ at the end of the age.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

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RandyPNW said:

Antiochus 4 did his reign of terror for 1290 days. It may have taken more days to get the news of his death back to the land of Israel--1335 days. The 3.5 years is the reign of Antichrist--1260 days. That is not the "Great Tribulation." The Great Tribulation is, as Jesus said, the punishment of the Jewish people--the worst in their history. It lasts from the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army, the AoD, until the return of Christ at the end of the age.

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RandyPNW said:

The Book of Revelation does not call the 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist the "Great Tribulation." A Great Multitude comes out of the Great Tribulation, but that Great Tribulation is not defined as the Reign of Antichrist, but rather, depicts the entire age of Tribulation that has characterized Christian persecution and tribulation.

So yes, Jesus himself characterized the Great Tribulation as an age-long punishment of the Jewish People. Since Jesus, in his earthly ministry, was addressing the Jewish People specifically and almost exclusively, he was explaining that once they've largely rejected him as Messiah, and given him over to death, they would lose their homeland, subjecting all Jews, unbelievers and believers both, to an age of homelessness with respect to their Promised Land.

This Tribulation would also be characterized by the Jewish unbelievers rejecting and persecuting their believing brethren, as well as by pagan nations rejecting these believing Jews. And so, heading into the NT era, the Great Tribulation begins as a long age of Jewish failure and punishment, which has become with the expansion of the Gospel a misery foisted upon believers in all nations.

I don't know how many times I have to post it before everybody here sees it, but I will show again that Jesus, in Luke 21, characterized the Great Tribulation as a Jewish Punishment lasting the entire age, beginning with the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman Army, and ending with the Return of Christ at the end of the age.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

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