The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[ByTheSpirit]

In a nutshell, yes. It doesn't appear in the parable that we prepare our own soil.

The Bible reflects a General Call and an Effectual Call.

Thank you for clearing that up. Not saying I agree with it, but it does help me understand a bit more.

 

[RisenInJesus]

All people who have ever lived had had the same exact "opportunity" to hear a clear presentation of the gospel? That's an extremely *ignorant view of history and reality.

* for those ignorant of the definition of ignorant: Unaware or uninformed.

The cross of Christ stands at a point in history as the only way of salvation because Jesus alone is the Savior. Yet, I believe the Bible reveals that all people who have ever lived have had various opportunities to respond to God in faith during different historical dispensations, whether it be through the testimony of creation, their God-given conscious, the law, or grace. I think the Bible indicates they will be judged by their response toward God according to the amount of the revelation they had.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

only those on the good soil bear fruit

What are you referring to by, "those"?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I believe the Bible reveals that all people who have ever lived have had various opportunities

Are you sticking with identical/equal, or the above?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

What are you referring to by, "those"?

The seed sown on good soil

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The seed sown on good soil

Thanks.

 

[OzSpen]

Allow me then to rephrase it, I need to work on my communication skills apparently

From the Canon of Dort, article six:

"FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 6. That some receive the gift of faith from God, and others do not receive it, proceeds from God's eternal decree. "For now unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15:18 A.V.). "who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" (Eph 1:11). According to which decree He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe; while He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy. And herein is especially displayed the profound, the merciful, and at the same time the righteous discrimination between men equally involved in ruin; or that decree of election and reprobation, revealed in the Word of God, which, though men of perverse, impure, and unstable minds wrest it to their own destruction, yet to holy and pious souls affords unspeakable consolation." (Bold added for emphasis)

The emboldened statements above. God decrees reprobation, without any chance of repentance. That God "leaves the non-elect to his own just judgement" is to say he creates people just to destroy them in hell. Right?

Ezekiel 18:32 says plainly that God takes no pleasure in ANYONE's death, so they should repent and live. This is in complete alignment with Paul and Peter both stating that God wants all (not just the elect) to be saved and not perish.

BTS,

Please remember that the Synod of Dordt was a kangaroo court.

There was injustice against the Remonstrants at the Synod Dordt.

Oz

 

[EmSw]

What are you referring to by, "those"?

As Jesus said, 'But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience' (Luke 8:15).

 

[Hammster]

BTS,

Please remember that the Synod of Dordt was a kangaroo court.

There was injustice against the Remonstrants at the Synod Dordt.

Oz

Please post on topic. Thanks.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Why can't all threads be like this?

 

[rockytopva]

What can't all threads be like this?

Edit

 

[RC1970]

So in context of the parable of the sower, the ones down all along the path, rocky soil, and even thorns all seem to receive the word, yet have the word choked or destroyed for various reason (the evil one, no root, cares of the world) and only those on the good soil bear fruit.

So Calvinism teaches two different calls then? One general call that goes out to everyone, but only the ones God wants receive the second call which results in eternal life as part of the elect?

Exactly. The outward call (the seed) is the Gospel which goes out to everyone, and the inward call (the good soil) is the work of regeneration which is reserved for God's elect. Those who have the inward call, can and will respond to the outward call.

 

[friend of]

Matthew 24:13

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Exactly. The outward call (the seed) is the Gospel which goes out to everyone, and the inward call (the good soil) is the work of regeneration which is reserved for God's elect. Those who have the inward call, can and will respond to the outward call.

Same call, in some sense. Different outcome, depending only on the soil.

 

[RC1970]

Same call, in some sense. Different outcome, depending only on the soil.

The soil is made good by the inward call. So, the Holy Spirit works through the preacher to spread the seed, and the Holy Spirit works through the elect, tilling the soil if you will, making them receptive and allowing them to bear fruit.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The soil is made good by the inward call. So, the Holy Spirit works through the preacher to spread the seed, and the Holy Spirit works through the elect, tilling the soil if you will, making them receptive and allowing them to bear fruit.

I find no fault in that logic. The elect are not good in and of themselves. God has made them good.

 

[dad]

I think every Theology, outside of perhaps Open Theism, will believe it's "fixed" before we are born. What God knows will happen cannot be changed.

Whatever He knows is beside the point. We don't know what He knows. We do know that if we come to Him we can be saved though. And if we fall that doesn't mean we were never saved, or it was predestined.

 

[dad]

Does your God have a chosen people?

His chosen people still had a choice to love God or not.

 

[Hammster]

Whatever He knows is beside the point. We don't know what He knows. We do know that if we come to Him we can be saved though. And if we fall that doesn't mean we were never saved, or it was predestined.

I agree, mostly.

 

[Hammster]

His chosen people still had a choice to love God or not.

So who chooses His chosen people?