The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[jimmyjimmy]

No, I don't think so. The God I believe in, the God of the Bible has granted the opportunity of salvation to everyone.

How about the Billions who have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel?

If you could only see how on this one issue how entirely wrong you are rather than towing the party line. . .

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Folks, STICK with the topic in the OP. There is no need for flaming, and no need to post off topic comments.

​

 

[Hammster]

For the two or three of you that have honored the OP, I thank you.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

No, I don't think so. The God I believe in, the God of the Bible has granted the opportunity of salvation to everyone.

An equal opportunity at that

 

[ByTheSpirit]

How about the Billions who have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel?

If you could only see how on this one issue how entirely wrong you are rather than towing the party line. . .

Do you think that perhaps Romans 2 applies in this case? For example, Paul says those Gentiles who lived apart from the law and yet instinctively kept the law are declared righteous.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

An equal opportunity at that

All people who have ever lived had had the same exact "opportunity" to hear a clear presentation of the gospel? That's an extremely *ignorant view of history and reality.

* for those ignorant of the definition of ignorant: Unaware or uninformed.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Do you think that perhaps Romans 2 applies in this case? For example, Paul says those Gentiles who lived apart from the law and yet instinctively kept the law are declared righteous.

There are people who have kept the law of God???!!! May I meet one, please?

 

[zippy2006]

No, I don't think so. The God I believe in, the God of the Bible has granted the opportunity of salvation to everyone.

The contrary of this is an old heresy called Predestinarianism, and is based on--you guessed it!--misunderstandings of Augustine's teaching against the Pelagians. These same misunderstandings plague Luther and Calvin, who fell into the same old heresy.

 

[zippy2006]

There are people who have kept the law of God???!!! May I meet one, please?

Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee, as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless. (Phillipians 3:4-6)

 

[ByTheSpirit]

There are people who have kept the law of God???!!! May I meet one, please?

Paul is the one that wrote it, not me. Ask him.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:13-14‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[ByTheSpirit]

All people who have ever lived had had the same exact "opportunity" to hear a clear presentation of the gospel? That's an extremely *ignorant view of history and reality.

* for those ignorant of the definition of ignorant: Unaware or uninformed.

Ok, so back to the original issue.

God's call

When God calls someone are they saved?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Paul is the one that wrote it, not me. Ask him.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:13-14‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Do you imagine that he said that there are people who have obeyed the law of God?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Do you imagine that he said that there are people who have obeyed the law of God?

Well that is a different topic for a different discussion. @Hammster has been pretty clear this thread is for his OP only, but we can certainly discuss that somewhere else if need be.

Now to my question to you as it pertains to the OP.

When God calls someone are they saved?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well that is a different topic for a different discussion. @Hammster has been pretty clear this thread is for his OP only, but we can certainly discuss that somewhere else if need be.

Now to my question to you as it pertains to the OP.

When God calls someone are they saved?

No.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

No.

So we can refuse his calling then?

I am trying to understand this idea that God can call a person and they end up not receiving salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Ok, so back to the original issue.

God's call

When God calls someone are they saved?

For those whom He called, He also justified.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So we can refuse his calling then?

I am trying to understand this idea that God can call a person and they end up not receiving salvation.

The call to the elect, like the seed on the good soil, is heeded, but the general call is not, like the se sown on bad soil.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The call to the elect, like the seed on the good soil, is heeded, but the general call is not, like the se sown on bad soil.

So in context of the parable of the sower, the ones down all along the path, rocky soil, and even thorns all seem to receive the word, yet have the word choked or destroyed for various reason (the evil one, no root, cares of the world) and only those on the good soil bear fruit.

So Calvinism teaches two different calls then? One general call that goes out to everyone, but only the ones God wants receive the second call which results in eternal life as part of the elect?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So Calvinism teaches two different calls then? One general call that goes out to everyone, but only the ones God wants receive the second call which results in eternal life as part of the elect?

The Bible reflects a General Call and an Effectual Call.

 

[Hammster]

So in context of the parable of the sower, the ones down all along the path, rocky soil, and even thorns all seem to receive the word, yet have the word choked or destroyed for various reason (the evil one, no root, cares of the world) and only those on the good soil bear fruit.

So Calvinism teaches two different calls then? One general call that goes out to everyone, but only the ones God wants receive the second call which results in eternal life as part of the elect?

In a nutshell, yes. It doesn't appear in the parable that we prepare our own soil.