The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[Hammster]

Not if we do the choosing. Then we are His chosen people. A Royal Priesthood. A peculiar people. If we chose Jesus we are also chosen of Him. We are His chosen people. Our act of choosing results in eternal life. He chose to make it that way. He chose to make us His chosen people if we chose Him!

You can't just twist definitions around. To be chosen, someone must choose you. It's not "therefore as God's choosing people".

 

[dad]

You can't just twist definitions around. To be chosen, someone must choose you. It's not "therefore as God's choosing people".

God has chosen all who chose to come to Him! Really.

 

[Hammster]

God has chosen all who chose to come to Him! Really.

Why would He need to?

 

[Anto9us]

FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 4. The wrath of God abides upon those who believe not this gospel. But such as receive it and embrace Jesus the Savior by a true and living faith are by Him delivered from the wrath of God and from destruction, and have the gift of eternal life conferred upon them.

Well - I LIKE that one!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Not if we do the choosing. Then we are His chosen people.

You keep using that word, but I do not think you know what it means.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God has chosen all who chose to come to Him! Really.

I know that culture has gone a long way from God's design on this subject, but in marriage, men choose women, not the other way around. To say, in the first century that a women chose a man for marriage would be incomprehensible. Even more incomprehensible than your above words.

 

[Haipule]

As what usually happens in these threads, once Calvinism is mentioned, or someone who is Reformed posts something that seems Reformed, the arguments against Reformed Theology come out, and are usually emotionally driven straw man arguments.

This gets us nowhere because the Calvinists aren't really given the opportunity to defend what we believe, but have to spend time correcting the incorrect argument.

So here's the challenge. Below you will find links to some various documents that those who hold to Reformed Theology will agree on, at least soteriologically. The challenge to to quote from one of them, and then state why you believe it is incorrect. This will hopefully lead to a reasoned discussion. Any argument that does not start this way will be considered off topic. You are, however, free to start your own thread on that matter.

Here are your links.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (I would have used the Westminster Confession, but I'm Baptist )

Canons of Dordt

Heidelberg Catechism

Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin, Christian Classics Books, Bible Study

Canons of Dordt

FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE TWO.

John 3:16 is very poorly translated and misleading--rather:

For(assigning a reason) thusly He-agapaO-loves*, thee God, thee kosmos-world even-as-and-also thee Son of-Him-same, namely--thee uniquely-begotten-One, He-gives* that(purpose) any thee one-keeps-on-trusting(present participle--continuous action) into Him-same no he-might-be(acting upon himself--stupidly)-be-rendered-useless but-rather he-might-be(and keep on)-having zOE-life(feminine), breath-being-belong-to-her(right here, right now). John 3:16

Your little leaven has leavened the whole lump! If I may borrow a phrase from Paul.

 

[Hammster]

Canons of Dordt

FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE TWO.

John 3:16 is very poorly translated and misleading--rather:

For(assigning a reason) thusly He-agapaO-loves*, thee God, thee kosmos-world even-as-and-also thee Son of-Him-same, namely--thee uniquely-begotten-One, He-gives* that(purpose) any thee one-keeps-on-trusting(present participle--continuous action) into Him-same no he-might-be(acting upon himself--stupidly)-be-rendered-useless but-rather he-might-be(and keep on)-having zOE-life(feminine), breath-being-belong-to-her(right here, right now). John 3:16

Your little leaven has leavened the whole lump! If I may borrow a phrase from Paul.

I have no idea what your point is.

 

[JLB777]

One, God doesn't choose anyone for eternal damnation. That's our default state. Paul says believers have the same nature as the children of wrath.

Here's a verse to start the discussion on election.

“For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul thanked God that they believed the word. So God obviously has say in who believes, otherwise why thank Him?

I thank God everyday for Jesus Christ, who is the Author of my salvation.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:13-16


God sends a preacher.
The preacher preaches the Gospel.
The people hear the Gospel.

They either believe and obey the Gospel or not.

If they believe, then they obey.

If they do not believe, then they do not obey.


Those who obey, repent and confess Jesus as Lord.


JLB

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God sends a preacher.
The preacher preaches the Gospel.
The people hear the Gospel.

They either believe and obey the Gospel or not.

If they believe, then they obey.

If they do not believe, then they do not obey.


Those who obey, repent and confess Jesus as Lord.

Why is it that some obey the gospel while others don't?

 

[Hammster]

I thank God everyday for Jesus Christ, who is the Author of my salvation.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:13-16


God sends a preacher.
The preacher preaches the Gospel.
The people hear the Gospel.

They either believe and obey the Gospel or not.

If they believe, then they obey.

If they do not believe, then they do not obey.


Those who obey, repent and confess Jesus as Lord.


JLB

I agree. Not sure why you think that's a response to my post, though.

 

[JLB777]

I'm aware that you've closed the case, but may I reopen it?

I want to know who these, "whosoever believes" people are. How is it that some believe and some don't? Is this something that is to God's credit and glory or man's credit and glory?

Since it was Jesus Christ who died for our sins, then it's to God's credit and glory.

This does not change who can believe the Gospel.

It's still whosoever.

It's still not who God chooses.


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

• not willing that any should perish

JLB

 

[JLB777]

Why is it that some obey the gospel while others don't?

Maybe they like living in sin, and don't want to be told what to do.

I honestly can't answer for everyone.



JLB

 

[jimmyjimmy]

This does not change who can believe the Gospel.

No, it doesn't. No one CAN believe the gospel - unless it is granted to him to believe it. No one has the ability.

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father” (John 6:65).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Maybe they like living in sin, and don't want to be told what to do.

I honestly can't answer for everyone.



JLB

Were you a sinner prior to being saved?

 

[Anto9us]

"Just pick a fight with a Calvinist, and get lectures for free"

ROFL, JimmyJimmy!!

Free Tuition to the Seminary of Soteriology Disputes!!
Doesn't get any better than that!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"Just pick a fight with a Calvinist, and get lectures for free"

ROFL, JimmyJimmy!!

Free Tuition to the Seminary of Soteriology Disputes!!
Doesn't get any better than that!

See, some Calvinists do have a sense of humor.

 

[Anto9us]

I guess some Calvinists are PREDESTINED to have a sense of humor!!

Some Presbyterians across the highway once SHARED A BUILDING for a while with 7th Day Adventists -- makes sense to me -- some used it on Saturday, some on Sunday...

It went on many months til the Prezzies got their own building elsewhere

 

[zippy2006]

Obviously I disagree with Calvin.

Fair enough. I should note at this point how far we are from "strawmen."

You disagree with Calvin. Do you take Calvin to be here accurately representing the Reformed tradition, which you also disagree with? Or has Calvin strayed into what some call "Hyper-Calvinism"?

Per your own OP guidelines, could you state why you believe Calvin is incorrect?

 

[Hammster]

Fair enough. I should note at this point how far we are from "strawmen."

You disagree with Calvin. Do you take Calvin to be here accurately representing the Reformed tradition, which you also disagree with? Or has Calvin strayed into what some call "Hyper-Calvinism"?

Per your own OP guidelines, could you state why you believe Calvin is incorrect?

The OP isn't about Calvin. And I made a point that you responded to. There's nothing else to add.