The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[ToBeLoved]

The cross of Christ stands at a point in history as the only way of salvation because Jesus alone is the Savior. Yet, I believe the Bible reveals that all people who have ever lived have had various opportunities to respond to God in faith during different historical dispensations, whether it be through the testimony of creation, their God-given conscious, the law, or grace. I think the Bible indicates they will be judged by their response toward God according to the amount of the revelation they had.

You must have missed that the Old Covenant was pretty exclusively (with a few conversions) for the Hebrews/israelite's.

I don't know how you can make that statement when God chose His chosen people.

Even Jesus said straight out that He came for the Jews.

So help me with your logic.

 

[ToBeLoved]

His chosen people still had a choice to love God or not.

I dunno because the Old Covenant was a nation covenant, not individual like the New Covenant.

Remember the "I will be your God, and you will be my people".

God wasn't picking up everyone. God had His group. Plus it was not "love God", it was "obey God". The Old Covenant is a covenant of obedience. Not love.

 

[dad]

So who chooses His chosen people?

If we chose God, we are chosen! He chose a people in the past so they were a chosen people (as we are now if we chose Him). But many chose devils and rebellion and death over Him. Many of the Jews in the end will die and just a remnant will be saved. So many of His chosen people were not saved apparently. The gentiles who chose Jesus were saved, because they chose Him, so they are the chosen ones. Of His chosen people, only the ones who also chose Jesus are saved. In the Old Testament, some chose God
(who also was Jesus) or believed that Jesus would come one day. It was not a predestined thing to where they had no real actual choice.

Calvinists seem to think that if someone falls or for a time has no good works (or what they think are good works) that they were never really saved and were predestined to hell.

 

[dad]

Even Jesus said straight out that He came for the Jews. .

But not all Jews and not only Jews!

 

[dad]

I dunno because the Old Covenant was a nation covenant, not individual like the New Covenant.

Remember the "I will be your God, and you will be my people".

God wasn't picking up everyone. God had His group. Plus it was not "love God", it was "obey God". The Old Covenant is a covenant of obedience. Not love.

They were commanded to love God, so they had a choice to do so or not. Only those that chose Him in Israel were saved, not the nation as a whole that I recall.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If we chose God, we are chosen!

Did you feel silly when you wrote that?

 

[RisenInJesus]

I dunno because the Old Covenant was a nation covenant, not individual like the New Covenant.

Remember the "I will be your God, and you will be my people".

God wasn't picking up everyone. God had His group. Plus it was not "love God", it was "obey God". The Old Covenant is a covenant of obedience. Not love.

Yet, Abraham was called God's friend. Although, the old covenant focused on law-keeping and obedience, I believe it was nevertheless based on God's love and according to the NT those who who believed in the God of Israel lived by faith when they kept the law. And though God was dealing with His chosen people the nation of Israel as you have pointed out previously, others were always welcome to join if they desired to follow the God of Israel.

 

[Hammster]

If we chose God, we are chosen! He chose a people in the past so they were a chosen people (as we are now if we chose Him). But many chose devils and rebellion and death over Him. Many of the Jews in the end will die and just a remnant will be saved. So many of His chosen people were not saved apparently. The gentiles who chose Jesus were saved, because they chose Him, so they are the chosen ones. Of His chosen people, only the ones who also chose Jesus are saved. In the Old Testament, some chose God
(who also was Jesus) or believed that Jesus would come one day. It was not a predestined thing to where they had no real actual choice.

Calvinists seem to think that if someone falls or for a time has no good works (or what they think are good works) that they were never really saved and were predestined to hell.

So God doesn't choose, but if we choose Him, we are chosen. That really distorts the meaning of chosen.

 

[JLB777]

As what usually happens in these threads, once Calvinism is mentioned, or someone who is Reformed posts something that seems Reformed, the arguments against Reformed Theology come out, and are usually emotionally driven straw man arguments.

This gets us nowhere because the Calvinists aren't really given the opportunity to defend what we believe, but have to spend time correcting the incorrect argument.

So here's the challenge. Below you will find links to some various documents that those who hold to Reformed Theology will agree on, at least soteriologically. The challenge to to quote from one of them, and then state why you believe it is incorrect. This will hopefully lead to a reasoned discussion. Any argument that does not start this way will be considered off topic. You are, however, free to start your own thread on that matter.

Here are your links.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (I would have used the Westminster Confession, but I'm Baptist )

Canons of Dordt

Heidelberg Catechism

Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin, Christian Classics Books, Bible Study

Here is what John Calvin taught.

Let's take three common issues and show why they are valid criticisms in light of Calvin's own words: 1) God authoring evil, 2) God predestining to Hell, and 3) free will.

1. God is the author of evil

...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

2. God predestines to Hell

…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 5)

3. There is no free will

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)

Central to [Calvin's] case is the distinction between necessity and coercion.[74] Necessity he defines as "a fixed, steady state in which a thing cannot be otherwise than it is." He agrees with Aristotle that necessity is the opposite of "the existence of alternative possibilities" (335). The necessity to sin means that sinners cannot other than sin. (Lane, 31)

 

[JLB777]

So God doesn't choose, but if we choose Him, we are chosen. That really distorts the meaning of chosen.

How about a scripture that shows us God chooses some for salvation, while choosing others for eternal damnation.

God chooses for purpose, not salvation, for salvation is for whosoever believes.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Whosoever believes.

Notice it doesn't say whosoever God chooses.

Case Closed.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Whosoever believes.

I'm aware that you've closed the case, but may I reopen it?

I want to know who these, "whosoever believes" people are. How is it that some believe and some don't? Is this something that is to God's credit and glory or man's credit and glory?

 

[dad]

Did you feel silly when you wrote that?

No.

 

[dad]

So God doesn't choose, but if we choose Him, we are chosen. That really distorts the meaning of chosen.

Says who? Either we really can chose or not. If we can, then we chose. If we chose we are chosen also. Two way street.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Says who? Either we really can chose or not. If we can, then we chose. If we chose we are chosen also. Two way street.

Why is it that you allow man to choose, but God has no choice? This creation is His to do with as He pleases, is He not?

Your god has to live with the choices of men. He is only as "sovereign" as men's choices allow Him to be.

 

[dad]

Why is it that you allow man to choose, but God has no choice? This creation is His to do with as He pleases, is He not?

Of course God chooses. But not the stuff He left up to us to choose!

Your god has to live with the choices of men. He is only as "sovereign" as men's choices allow Him to be.

False. He graciously gave us choice. That means He allows us to chose, so He limits Himself in some way by what He allows. You seem to assume He can't allow His beloved children to be happy, and live forever and choose without being weak or imperfect for so doing. Ridiculous. Calvies love to toss around that word sovereign I notice. I do not think He was weak for coming down to earth to be humbled and die for us, so we could chose life. Our choice seems important to Him.

 

[Hammster]

Says who? Either we really can chose or not. If we can, then we chose. If we chose we are chosen also. Two way street.

No, if we choose God, He's the chosen one. Those who are chosen are the ones acted on.

 

[Hammster]

How about a scripture that shows us God chooses some for salvation, while choosing others for eternal damnation.

God chooses for purpose, not salvation, for salvation is for whosoever believes.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Whosoever believes.

Notice it doesn't say whosoever God chooses.

Case Closed.

One, God doesn't choose anyone for eternal damnation. That's our default state. Paul says believers have the same nature as the children of wrath.

Here's a verse to start the discussion on election.

“For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul thanked God that they believed the word. So God obviously has say in who believes, otherwise why thank Him?

 

[zippy2006]

One, God doesn't choose anyone for eternal damnation.

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

 

[Hammster]

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

Obviously I disagree with Calvin.

 

[dad]

No, if we choose God, He's the chosen one. Those who are chosen are the ones acted on.

Not if we do the choosing. Then we are His chosen people. A Royal Priesthood. A peculiar people. If we chose Jesus we are also chosen of Him. We are His chosen people. Our act of choosing results in eternal life. He chose to make it that way. He chose to make us His chosen people if we chose Him!