The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[ICONO'CLAST]

Notice...most flee when you remove the straw man man option.
They can accuse but not reply scripturally.

 

[Hammster]

So does Reformed theology allow for people to be called by God and still remain lost in their sins?

Depends on what's meant by call. There's a general call where the gospel is proclaimed to everyone. Then there's the call referred to in Romans 8:30. That call is obviously effective since it says that those who are called are justified.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

You quoted it in post 64.....3rd and 4th head article 9

You didn't answer me

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Notice...most flee when you remove the straw man man option.
They can accuse but not reply scripturally.

Who defines the "straw man" though? If it is you who hold to the theory in question then of course anything that raises the issue of inaccuracy will be relegated to a straw man argument. Several have made plenty of scriptural replies in this discussion. How did you put it to the other member here? Oh yeah, "you're not grasping it is not a contingency"

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Depends on what's meant by call. There's a general call where the gospel is proclaimed to everyone. Then there's the call referred to in Romans 8:30. That call is obviously effective since it says that those who are called are justified.

I guess it depends on the definition of call then.

So do you think, or rather does Calvinism teach that God calls all people but only grants faith for salvation to some then?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The honest answer should be that there is very, very little material in such catechisms that should be problematic to anyone.

Of course without forum debates over minutiae the internet would be 100% inappropriate content instead of 99%.

This adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So does Reformed theology allow for people to be called by God and still remain lost in their sins?

YES! The Sower sows seed promiscuously. He even throws it on rocks! Do farmers do such a thing?! The gospel is proclaimed to all who are in earshot; however, the seed does not grow unless it is on good soil.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Good thread, Hammster.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

YES! The Sower sows seed promiscuously. He even throws it on rocks! Do farmers do such a thing?! The gospel is proclaimed to all who are in earshot; however, the seed does not grow unless it is on good soil.

So God does that mean that people reject the call?

 

[Thursday]

So God does that mean that people reject the call?

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So God does that mean that people reject the call?

Which people?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Which people?

The people that hear the gospel but are not saved.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The people that hear the gospel but are not saved.

It's a problem of the will. The WILL not come.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I guess the best way to explain it is this. Left alone, we would all be reprobate. God wouldn't need to do anything. However, He has chosen some to salvation.

So there's action towards the elect. None towards the reprobate.

Why? "He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy".
Why has He chosen some to salvation and not all?

 

[dad]

As what usually happens in these threads, once Calvinism is mentioned, or someone who is Reformed posts something that seems Reformed, the arguments against Reformed Theology come out, and are usually emotionally driven straw man arguments.

This gets us nowhere because the Calvinists aren't really given the opportunity to defend what we believe, but have to spend time correcting the incorrect argument.

So here's the challenge. Below you will find links to some various documents that those who hold to Reformed Theology will agree on, at least soteriologically. The challenge to to quote from one of them, and then state why you believe it is incorrect. This will hopefully lead to a reasoned discussion. Any argument that does not start this way will be considered off topic. You are, however, free to start your own thread on that matter.

Here are your links.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (I would have used the Westminster Confession, but I'm Baptist )

Canons of Dordt

Heidelberg Catechism

Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin, Christian Classics Books, Bible Study

From one of your links.

"
Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil."

Calvinism Soteriology Topics

To suggest that it is fixed before we are born, means we have no choice. We do. Whosoever will, let him come. Whosoever comes I will in no wise cast out.

As for the good works thing, I have heard some claim that if a man falls, he wasn't really saved in the first place. That is wrong.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Why? "He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy".
Why has He chosen some to salvation and not all?

Firstly, you have to answer that question, as well. Do you realize that?

 

[Hammster]

I guess it depends on the definition of call then.

So do you think, or rather does Calvinism teach that God calls all people but only grants faith for salvation to some then?

I don't even think that everyone hears the gospel. But some are granted faith, to use that term.

 

[Hammster]

Why? "He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy".
Why has He chosen some to salvation and not all?

Well, you'll have to ask Him.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Firstly, you have to answer that question, as well. Do you realize that?

No, I don't think so. The God I believe in, the God of the Bible has granted the opportunity of salvation to everyone.

 

[Hammster]

From one of your links.

"
Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil."

Calvinism Soteriology Topics

To suggest that it is fixed before we are born, means we have no choice. We do. Whosoever will, let him come. Whosoever comes I will in no wise cast out.

As for the good works thing, I have heard some claim that if a man falls, he wasn't really saved in the first place. That is wrong.

I think every Theology, outside of perhaps Open Theism, will believe it's "fixed" before we are born. What God knows will happen cannot be changed.

 

[Hammster]

No, I don't think so. The God I believe in, the God of the Bible has granted the opportunity of salvation to everyone.

Does your God have a chosen people?