The Mysterious Christian Trinity

[TWells]

No problem, take your time.

 

[Outspoken]

The Trinity doctrine is the teaching of men that is designed to take your eyes of the truth that God became a Father when he begat a Son. The Trinity doctrine comes from Babylon and God judged Babylon for it's idolatory.

Come out of her my people, for her sins have piled up to heaven. She has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

Since Christ assended the church has know the truth of the trinity. It is not a teaching of men, it is a teaching of God, for trinity is what he is.

 

[Knight Of Templar]

The Trinity is the One True God (Jehovah; Yahweh; whatever you prefer to call Him) manifesting Himself in three different forms; Christianity is certainly not "polytheistic" as some people try to claim!

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste all,

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These Three Persons are truly distinct one from another; yet, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word "trias" (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about 180 C.E. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom." The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian. In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen. The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270 C.E., he writes: "There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever." It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason, it has no place in the liberal Protestantism today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies. In view of this assertion it is necessary to consider in some detail the evidence afforded by Scripture. Attempts have been made recently to apply the more extreme theories of comparative religion to the doctrine of the Trinity, and to account for it by an imaginary law of nature compelling men to group the objects of their worship in threes. It seems needless to give more than a reference to these extravagant views, which serious thinkers of every school reject as destitute of foundation.

http://www.ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/augustine/concepts/trinity.html

i thought i'd be lazy and simply post something that someone else has written to give another perspective... as i'm currently discussing this very thing on another thread and didn't feel like repeating it all here...

 

[drmmjr]

From "Focus on the Kingdom - Aug, 2003

Incomprehensible "Church-Speak"

The single greatest weakness in the whole theory that “Jesus is God,” a coequal, uncreated Person of the Triune God, lies in the question about the Son of God’s beginning and origin. In order to believe in the Trinity one must subscribe to the idea that the Son of God had no beginning in time. According to the language of the creeds of Roman Catholics and nearly all Protestant churches, the Son of God was “eternally generated,” or “generated before all ages.” This concept derives from the church father Origen, c. 185-254. It was clear to all that Jesus is called the Son of God. A son is one generated or begotten by a father. But since the biblical Son of God, Jesus, was held to be an eternal being, God, the second member of the Trinity, it was required by church members to believe that the Son of God was “eternally generated” (contradicting Ps. 2:7; Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35; 1 John 5:18, not KJV).
The phrase “eternal generation” needs to be carefully inspected by students of the Bible wishing to build their faith on Scripture. Does it make any sense? Do the words “eternal generation” bear any intelligible meaning? Or are they simply sounds produced by the voice with no meaning? Take any dictionary and look up the word “generate.” It means “to bring into existence,” “to cause to exist.” It describes what happens when a father generates or begets a child. If, then, a child is brought into existence, it follows of course that the child was not in existence before. You cannot come into existence or receive existence, i.e., be generated or begotten, if you are already in existence. A leading theologian of our time puts it this way: “Sonship cannot at the same time consist in preexistence and still have its origin only in the divine procreation of Jesus in Mary” (Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jesus: God and Man, p. 143). In plain language, you cannot at the same time come into existence as the Son of God if you have already been in existence as the Son of God.

“Eternal generation,” which lies at the basis of the so-called “orthodox” views of Jesus’ Sonship, presents us with an unintelligible notion. To be generated means to come into existence. “Eternal” describes what is outside time and has no beginning. One might just as logically speak of “square circles,” or “round triangles.” To be “eternally generated” would mean that one has a “beginningless beginning.”

Unfortunately church members have not given these central biblical issues much thought. They know they are supposed to believe that “Jesus is God,” and they may or may not know what that entails. Probably they have not realized that it means that the Son of God they claim as Savior was “eternally generated” — “very God of very God,” as the creed states.

Luke and Matthew do not present any such “eternally generated” Son of God. In fact they rule out any such possibility in the case of Jesus. Luke 1:35 says that because of, and based on the miracle of God’s procreating act in Mary, Jesus will be the Son of God. He is the Son of God, not surprisingly, because God and not Joseph was his father. The Father created the second Adam, the Son of God, not, like Adam, from the dust, but within the human biological chain — from Mary, a descendant of the royal family of David (see 2 Sam. 7:14-16; Luke 1:32-35; Matt. 1:16-20).

http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/511.htm

 

[Outspoken]

"The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies."

Then those people are simply not reading the bible. the councils came together to CONFIRM it. They did not create it at all.

 

[t888]

I can prove that the Trinity is a bogus doctrine, from the scriptures.
I am not really sure where you guys are up to in the debate as it seems very long, but I suppose I will start with the following scriptures. They speak for themselves.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

The true foundation that Jesus built the Church on is the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah. It is not the Trinity and never will be. This can be proven from many scriptures.

 

[t888]

The Trinity is the One True God (Jehovah; Yahweh; whatever you prefer to call Him) manifesting Himself in three different forms; Christianity is certainly not "polytheistic" as some people try to claim!

Now YHWH declares in Psalm 2:7 the following:
​

"I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Therefore YHWH (God) is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of YHWH. Jesus is not YHWH.
[/font]
​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Prove to me that Jesus is YHWH. Not a long winded answer, but keep it simple so I can disprove your points one at a time.
[/font]
​

 

[t888]

"The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies."

Then those people are simply not reading the bible. the councils came together to CONFIRM it. They did not create it at all.

You cannot prove this. What the Christians in the first century believed is recorded in the scriptures. We know that Jesus and Paul taught us that great deception, doctrine of demons and even a great falling away would happen. So if we use sources outside the scriptures to prove a doctrine, then we risk falling for these prophecied deceptions. I think we can both appreciate the fact that the scriptures are the most reliable source of Christian doctrine and Creeds are not to be relied on like scripture as they are interpretations of men, whereas scripture is inspired by God.

Acts 20:29-31
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

 

[TWells]

You cannot prove this. What the Christians in the first century believed is recorded in the scriptures.

Thats correct, they taught and believed the Wisdom template that I posted about earlier.

We know that Jesus and Paul taught us that great deception, doctrine of demons and even a great falling away would happen.

Meaningless, as you've given no reason as to why we should rip that out of its first century context and apply it to the Trinity debate.

So if we use sources outside the scriptures to prove a doctrine, then we risk falling for these prophecied deceptions.

Ahh...here it is - those pesky "outside" sources that allow us to determine the context of scripture. Jesus, Paul and the Diciples were quite fond of using outside sources such as the book of Sirach that He quotes from in the Gospels.

Please explain why I should reject and ignore the 1st century theological context that the NT was written in except your modern western interpretation??

I think we can both appreciate the fact that the scriptures are the most reliable source of Christian doctrine

Yep, but you have to put a little effort into it. Scripture isnt the Sunday newspaper and should not be read as one. I believe Christianitys biggest problem today is that we present the Gospel as merely a book, a 4 step program and invitation to Church then we basically abandon them. The Great Comission is to make "diciples".

and Creeds are not to be relied on like scripture as they are interpretations of men, whereas scripture is inspired by God.

Sorry, but its becoming increasingly hard to take serious what you say concerning the Trinity when Arians keep using the "Creed" strawman. My belief in the Trinity isnt based upon a Creed but scripture.

In Christ,

Travis

 

[TWells]

Ephesians 4:4-6

4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Absolutely nothing you have shown here contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity or Jewish Wisdom theology that its based upon. Wisdom was subordinate to the Father functionaly. That however does not entail inferiority.

I can prove that the Trinity is a bogus doctrine, from the scriptures. I am not really sure where you guys are up to in the debate as it seems very long, but I suppose I will start with the following scriptures. They speak for themselves.

My post arguing that the NT writers and Jesus Himself saw Him as God's Wisdom is a page or so back.

Before you start though, would you mind explaining your perspective a little? Are you a Jehovah's Witness etc...

 

[t888]

Thats correct, they taught and believed the Wisdom template that I posted about earlier.

Meaningless, as you've given no reason as to why we should rip that out of its first century context and apply it to the Trinity debate.

Ahh...here it is - those pesky "outside" sources that allow us to determine the context of scripture. Jesus, Paul and the Diciples were quite fond of using outside sources such as the book of Sirach that He quotes from in the Gospels.

Please explain why I should reject and ignore the 1st century theological context that the NT was written in except your modern western interpretation??

Yep, but you have to put a little effort into it. Scripture isnt the Sunday newspaper and should not be read as one. I believe Christianitys biggest problem today is that we present the Gospel as merely a book, a 4 step program and invitation to Church then we basically abandon them. The Great Comission is to make "diciples".

Sorry, but its becoming increasingly hard to take serious what you say concerning the Trinity when Arians keep using the "Creed" strawman. My belief in the Trinity isnt based upon a Creed but scripture.

In Christ,

Travis

What I did in my Post was to point out the truth that the scriptures are our source of doctrine. Other sources open us up to the deceptions that Paul talked about. Outside sources must be read in the light of scripture. This includes Creeds. What I pointed out was nothing more than that. I don't think you can argue with that.

You mention the Wisdom teaching. I am also a believer that the Wisdom is Christ himself.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Let's look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:[/font]

• [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus is the Truth. [/font]
• [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus is the Way. [/font]
• [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus is the Life. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is usually a difference between saying the way compared to way, the truth compared to truth, the life compared to life and the wisdom compared to wisdom. When we use the word 'the' we are normally talking about a person. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Anyway if we go to Proverbs 8:22-30. We can also see very strong similarities with the next 3 verses that talk about Jesus Christ.

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John 1:1 (English-NIV) [/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Compare with "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works" and "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began". Proverbs 8:22 [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](English-NIV)

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
[/font]

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"
​

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
Compare with "When there were no oceans, I was given birth". Proverbs 8:24 [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](English-NIV)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Compare with "Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,". [/font]Proverbs 8:30 [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](English-NIV)[/font]​

Now the point is that the Wisdom scriptures just reinforce that Jesus is the Son of God and that he existed with God before creation and God created creation through him and for him. We are shown that Wisdom was given birth and we know that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. This is not a Trinity teaching, on the contrary it reinforces the truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Image of God, the only begotten of God. Not God himself. Jesus Christ was begotten in eternity. God is his source.

God became a Father, when he begat a Son.

 

[t888]

[/color]

Absolutely nothing you have shown here contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity or Jewish Wisdom theology that its based upon. Wisdom was subordinate to the Father functionaly. That however does not entail inferiority.



My post arguing that the NT writers and Jesus Himself saw Him as God's Wisdom is a page or so back.

Before you start though, would you mind explaining your perspective a little? Are you a Jehovah's Witness etc...

One of the scriptures demonstrates that Jesus is not the God, the Father is.
The others show us that there is One God the Father and that Christ is the head of man and God is the head of Christ. If God is equal to Christ, then is man equal to Christ and therefore equal to God? Of course not.

Now the woman came from the man, man came from Christ and Christ came from God. God -> Christ -> Man.

Jesus is the Mediator, he is between God and Man. He is at the right hand of God and we are at the right hand of Christ. Again God -> Christ -> Man

This important truth is very different to the Trinity doctrine. The following scripture is also completely different to the Trinity doctrine.

John 17:21 (English-NIV)
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Am I a Jehovah Witness?, well I ask you a question. Are you a follower of Paul, Peter or Jesus? lol. Come on it is unspiritual people who have to label and ask these questions. You should judge by my fruit. Not my race, age, sex, denomination etc. My fruit that you can judge me by is my teaching.

Anyway for your judgement, I will tell you that I am not a JW and nor am I an Arian or a Trinitarian. I do not hold to any denomination/division. I am a believer who is lead by the Spirit of God and Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Shepherd. That is what we should be, a follower of Christ who leads us to God. I do not start with a doctrine and then fit scripture into it. I start with scripture and see what picture it paints.

I try to keep away from the philosophies of men. I try to keep away from idols made by mens hands, and diagrams or formulas coming from mans mind, which is where all idols start.

 

[Outspoken]

You cannot prove this. What the Christians in the first century believed is recorded in the scriptures. We know that Jesus and Paul taught us that great deception, doctrine of demons and even a great falling away would happen. So if we use sources outside the scriptures to prove a doctrine, then we risk falling for these prophecied deceptions. I think we can both appreciate the fact that the scriptures are the most reliable source of Christian doctrine and Creeds are not to be relied on like scripture as they are interpretations of men, whereas scripture is inspired by God.

Acts 20:29-31
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Yup, and the great deception they might be talking about is denying the trinity, for that is who God is. Scripture clearly shows that again and again. Christ himself showed it in word and in deed. Try reading the book of romans and the book of John.

 

[t888]

Yup, and the great deception they might be talking about is denying the trinity, for that is who God is. Scripture clearly shows that again and again. Christ himself showed it in word and in deed. Try reading the book of romans and the book of John.

The great deception and falling away is talking about falling away from the truths that Jesus and the Apostles taught. Doctrines of Demons and doctrines that draw men away from the truth. The point I made which you cannot refute is that we have the scriptures that teach us the truth and from the scriptures we learn the doctrine of Christ and who God is. The scriptures are there for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. This is no so with Creeds as they are nothing but the interpretation of scripture from certain men.

So we should be led by the Spirit of God and looking at scriptures to learn truth, not creeds. If a Creed disagrees with scripture, then the creed should lose. How many people were murdered in the history of the Harlot Church because they didn't believe in creeds? Why did the Harlot Church not allow men to read the scriptures, but give them access to creeds. It is really about control. Why are so many people today trying to bring this darkness back, by making creeds the foundation of faith, when the scriptures are very clear as to the true foundation.

I will over a period of time show scriptures that disproves the creeds. You can make your own mind up with my presentations. I am not forcing anyone into anything. But to those that are searching and love the truth, then maybe I can help. But to those who put agenda before truth, I just ask that you at least consider what I will show.

 

[t888]

Ephesians 4:4-6​

4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called ​

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

To add to these scriptures that show that the Most High God is the Father, I now show the following:​

John 17:3 (English-NIV)​

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.​

Notice that this truth is eternal life. That we know the ONLY TRUE GOD, and guess what? That ONLY TRUE GOD sent a certain person by the name of Jesus Christ.​

1 Corinthians 3:22-23 (English-NIV) ​

22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas {That is, Peter} or the world or life or death or the present or the future all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God

Notice that we (true believers) are of Christ and Christ is of God. Just as we are not Christ, Christ is not God.​

John 15:1-2 (English-NIV)​

1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. ​

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

So rather than thinking of a triangle with 3 sections, why don't we just use the following model. It is scriptural and therefore it cannot be controversial. This model shows us 3 levels. We who are totally supported by the vine, and Christ who is the vine and is supported by the Father. The Trinity doctrine is at odds to this scripture.​

John 20:17 (English-NIV)​

Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.​

Here we can see that Jesus Christ himself has a God. Now this God is also our God and that God is the Father.​

2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)​

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,​

Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)​

We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,​

Philippians 4:19-20 (English-NIV)​

19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus. ​

20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

These last 3 scriptures are representitive of hundreds of similar NT scriptures that distinguish betweeen God and Jesus Christ. I will list 100 below:​

Matthew 27:46​

Mark 1:24​

Mark 10:18​

Mark 15:34​

Mark 16:19​

Luke 2:52​

Luke 6:12​

Luke 18:19​

John 3:2​

John 8:42​

John 8:54​

John 9:3​

John 13:31​

John 14:1*​

John 17:3​

John 20:17​

Acts 2:22​

Acts 2:32​

Acts 2:36​

Acts 3:13​

Acts 4:10​

Acts 5:30​

Acts 7:55​

Acts 10:36​

Acts 10:38​

Acts 13:23​

Acts 20:21​

Romans 1:7​

Romans 1:8​

Romans 2:16​

Romans 3:22​

Romans 4:24​

Romans 5:1​

Romans 5:11​

Romans 5:15​

Romans 5:17​

Romans 6:23​

Romans 7:25​

Romans 8:34​

Romans 10:9​

Romans 15:5​

Romans 15:6​

Romans 16:27​

1 Corinthians 1:3​

1 Corinthians 1:9​

1 Corinthians 1:30​

1 Corinthians 8:6​

1 Corinthians 15:57​

2 Corinthians 1:2​

2 Corinthians 1:3​

2 Corinthians 11:31​

2 Corinthians 13:14​

Galatians 1:1​

Galatians 1:3​

Ephesians 1:2​

Ephesians 1:3​

Ephesians 1:17​

Ephesians 2:6​

Ephesians 6:23​

Philippians 1:2​

Philippians 2:11​

Colossians 1:3* ​

Colossians 3:17

1 Thessalonians 1:1​

1 Thessalonians 1:3​

1 Thessalonians 3:11​

1 Thessalonians 3:13​

1 Thessalonians 4:14​

1 Thessalonians 5:9​

2 Thessalonians 1:1​

2 Thessalonians 1:2​

2 Thessalonians 1:12​

2 Thessalonians 2:16​

1 Timothy 1:1​

1 Timothy 1:2​

1 Timothy 2:5​

1 Timothy 5:21​

1 Timothy 6:3​

2 Timothy 1:1​

2 Timothy 1:2​

2 Timothy 4:1​

Titus 1:4​

Titus 2:13​

Philemon 1:3​

Hebrews 13:20​

James 1:1​

1 Peter 1:2​

1 Peter 2:5​

2 Peter 1:1​

2 Peter 1:2​

1 John 5:1*​

1 John 5:20​

2 John 1:3​

Jude 1:1​

Jude 1:4​

Jude 1:21​

Jude 1:25​

Revelation 1:1​

Revelation 1:2​

Revelation 14:12 ​

 

[Outspoken]

t888, the first chapter of John alone shows Christ is God. We can handle each verse, but I'm not going to play the information overload game with you, its childish. As for Paul's writtings, he pretty much summed it up in col chapter 2. He says don't be decieved by philosphical arguments, just hold to the basic truth of the gospel, that Christ is God in the flesh.

 

[t888]

t888, the first chapter of John alone shows Christ is God. We can handle each verse, but I'm not going to play the information overload game with you, its childish. As for Paul's writtings, he pretty much summed it up in col chapter 2. He says don't be decieved by philosphical arguments, just hold to the basic truth of the gospel, that Christ is God in the flesh.

It is childish to accuse me of being childish because I posted 100 verses. I really didn't expect you to read them all. Maybe a few at randon. I wanted to demonstrate that these kinds of verses are not just one or two, rather many and in every book in the NT.

You say that the first chapter of John says that Jesus is God. Where?

Your quote about holding to the basic truth that Christ is God in the flesh is error. It is another gospel.

 

[Outspoken]

t888 I'm 100% positive that none of those verses support your idea if you look at the context. In the first chapter of John it makes it very clear that Christ is God. the first verse says the word is God. Verse 14 says the word became flesh. YOu also see John the baptist say something in regard to the word, then he sees Jesus and says, "this is who I was speaking of when I said..." then says the exact same thing about Jesus. There is no mistake here, Christ is God, that is the good news.

"Your quote about holding to the basic truth that Christ is God in the flesh is error"

No, its not. Its essential christian docterine. It has been from the begining. There has NEVER been a time when the church did not believe Christ was God.

 

[t888]

"Your quote about holding to the basic truth that Christ is God in the flesh is error"

No, its not. Its essential christian docterine. It has been from the begining. There has NEVER been a time when the church did not believe Christ was God.

First of all I would like to point out the normal procession of events when I show people these scriptures. They deny what these scriptures are saying and run off and quote other scriptures. Anyway I don't mind talking about those often quoted scriptures that Trinitarians use because truth must take all scriptures into consideration.

I take it with your last point that Jesus being God in the flesh, is suppose to be supported by Colossians 2:8-9

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,


When this scripture is quoted, verse 10 is often ignored.


10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

No one uses these verses to say that we are Christ, but the fullness of Christ is in us (children of God), yet many use them to say that Jesus is the Almighty God because the fullness of the deity is in him. We need to be fair when reading these scriptures. These verses are actually talking about nature. We have the nature of Christ and Christ has the nature of God. Nature is different to a person. Remember that true believers are the image of Christ and Christ is the Image of God. Being an image is different to being the source. Having the nature of someone doesn't make you that someone. It means that you are like them. God like. Christ like.

We need to read scripture in light of scripture.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

It is interesting to note that Jesus will call us brothers. This truly shows that we will be like him, yet he will still be greater than us, like our older brother. The Father however will not call us brothers, but rather we are his children (offspring) and he is our Father forever and we should call no one Father except our Heavenly Father .

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne

Our inheritance is in Christ and Christ's inheritance is in God.

I will talk about John's Gospel in the next post. I will try to keep it short, but I will have to cover the necessary points. I will also give a couple of days before posting again, to give time to contest what I have said here.