The Mysterious Christian Trinity

[Mephster]

The Trinity is one of the main problems of religious pluralism (as I see it, of course). Christians really start tripping over themselves when they explain it - some do a better job than others.

Now, I know the standard answers "3 persons in one," "its like a clover-leaf".... and I know about the "iota" difficulty of Chalcedon and Nicaea. (sp?) And I know all the Scripture "I and the Father are One."

But when it comes down to it, Christianity cannot explain the Trinity. (I'll grant that St. Thomas Aquinas did the best job so far in explaining it) Its one of those matters of faith - believe it or don't.

But this is a doctrine that immediately puts the Muslims at bay... trinity? Not Monotheism? Yikes!

And yet, Christianity is at odds with Hinduism - though there is a similar Hinduistic trinity.

But, if anyone would care to freewheel on the topic, I'd certainly listen. I admit its a doctrine of much difficulty to me.

 

[Outspoken]

I don't see it as puralistic. Have you read any of about the councils?

 

[kimber1]

i was discussing this with a friend yesterday actually and had posted a question about the right hand of God yesterday and whether that was a metaphor. something that stumps me that was refreshed in my mind yesterday; and forgive me, i can't remember the exact passage at the moment, but where it says that noone; not the angels, nor the Son, only the Father knows when the time is that He will come back. that in taking with the trinity really baffles me. i just have gotten to where it's one of those things i'll never understand till I meet God!

 

[Knight]

For a good description of the Trinity check out this site.

www.carm.org

If you go to the audio section there is a recorded sermon on the subject of the Trinity that explains quite a bit and is entertaining to listen to.

The site also has plenty of other information about the Trinity including answers to objections.

 

[Zephyr]

i think i may be able to sum the holy trinity up in three words:

MIND , BODY + SOUL

any objections?

 

[Mephster]

Zepher, my west-winded friend...

But your summation seems to make God composite - a point no Christian would concede, eh?

 

[GJG]

The basic problem is that trinitarianism is a non- scriptural doctrine that contradicts a number of biblical teachings and many specific verses of scripture. Also, the most obvious internal contradiction is how there can be three persons of God in any meaningful sense and yet there be only one God.
Here is compiled a number of other contradictions and problems associated with trinitarianism. Note: This list is not exhaustive but it does give an idea of how much the doctrine deviates from the Bible.
1. Did Jesus have two fathers? The father is the father of the son (1John1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived of the Holy Ghost Matt1:18,20; Luke1:35. Which one is the true father? Some Trinitarians claim that the Holy Ghost was merely the father’s agent in conception-a process they compare to artificial insemination!
2. How many spirits are there? God the father is a Spirit John4:24, the Lord Jesus is a Spirit 2Cor3:17 and the Holy Spirit is Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit 1Cor12:13; Eph4:4
3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? Matt11:25. Can God pray to God?
4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? Matt24:36; Mark13:32.
5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? John5:19,30; 6:38.
6. Similarly, what about other verses from scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? John8:42; 14:28; 1Cor11:3.
7. Did ‘God the Son’ die? The Bible shows that the Son died Rom5:10. If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Son was clearly ‘begotten’, indicating an obvious beginning John3:16; Heb1:5-6.
9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother during that time? The Son was made of a woman Gal4:4.
10. Did ‘God the Son’ surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could He still be God?
11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchanging), how can the reign of the Son have a ending? 1Cor15:24-28.
12. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father John4:21-24, yet Stephen prayed to Jesus Acts7:59-60.
13. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Obviously the OT does not teach three, but emphasizes the simple fact that there is only one.
14. Are there three Spirits in a Christian’s heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian John14:17,23; Rom8:9; Eph3:14-17. Yet there is only one Spirit 1Cor12:13; Eph4:4.
15. There is only one throne in heaven Rev4:2. Who sits upon it? Jesus does Rev1:8,18; 4:8. Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
16. If Jesus is seated on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? Mark16:19. Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? Acts7:55. Or is He in the Fathers bosom? John1:18.
17. How is Jesus part of the Godhead, when clearly the Godhead is in Jesus? Col2:9.
18. Given Matt 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using only the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism?Acts2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; 1Cor1:13.
19. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father Eph1:20, or Jesus John2:19-21, or the Spirit? Rom8:11.
20. If the Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, then why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? Luke12:10.
21. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always show the Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? John14:26; 15:26.
22. If they are co-equal, why does the Holy Ghost not know what the Father knows regarding the return of Christ Mark13:32.
23. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?
24. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?......................and so on…………….and so on!

I believe that trinitarinism is not a biblical doctrine and that it plainly contradicts the Bible in many ways. Scripture does not teach a trinity of persons. Trinity doctrine uses terminology not used in scripture. It teaches and emphasizes plurality in the Godhead while the Bible emphasizes the fact that God is one and only one. It detracts from the fullness of Jesus Christ’s Deity. It contradicts many specific verses of scripture. It is not logical. It cannot be explained rationally, not even by those who advocate it.

 

[lared]

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well.....

You worship what you do not know.....

The true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth.

 

[Oblio]

The true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth.

And what is Truth ? And where do you find it ?

Christians worship Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, both now, and unto ages of ages.

 

[lared]

I guess you didn't get it.

The true worshippers will worship......the Father....

Jesus did not say that the true worshippers will worship a trinity god, nor did he say they would worship a godhead, nor did he say they would worship the son, nor did he say they would worship the Holy Spirit.

Nor did he say, they would worship an egg with three parts.

Nor did he say they would worship a triangle with three sides.

Nor did he say they would worship water in three forms.

He said they would worship.....the Father......

And if there are true worshippers, worshipping the Father....then there must be false worshippers.....worshipping anything or anyone other then the Father.

 

[lared]

PS---

I am a Christian that does not worship a mysterious trinity god both now and unto ages of ages.

 

[Oblio]

Nor did he say, they would worship an egg with three parts.

Nor did he say they would worship a triangle with three sides.

Nor did he say they would worship water in three forms.

Do you believe in the Holy Trinity lared ?

 

[lared]

I'll answer with a question.

Do you believe in Santa Claus....Oblio?

 

[GJG]

I guess you didn't get it.

The true worshippers will worship......the Father....

Jesus did not say that the true worshippers will worship a trinity god, nor did he say they would worship a godhead, nor did he say they would worship the son, nor did he say they would worship the Holy Spirit.

Nor did he say, they would worship an egg with three parts.

Nor did he say they would worship a triangle with three sides.

Nor did he say they would worship water in three forms.

He said they would worship.....the Father......

And if there are true worshippers, worshipping the Father....then there must be false worshippers.....worshipping anything or anyone other then the Father.

Well said dude

Again: I mean not to offend anyone that is a trinitarian.

Actually there have been some very interesting discussions regarding this subject. Keep it up yall!

 

[Atkin]

Human beings are always looking for trouble rather than simply

reading the Word and seeking salvation and favor from God.

Jesus is God in flesh. Now if you disbelieve the word of John, the dispute John directly.

Jesus taught humans to direct worship to God (Spirit) , not necessarily to Jesus as he existed in flesh.

Jesus did that for a very good reason.

The Holy Spirit comes from the Father, and why should the three

be compared to themselves?. It is a futile , fruitless and dangerous thing to do.

God, Jesus Holy Spirit are all in Spirit form now since we cannot see

any of them. But should we attempt trying to analyse the differences between them..... if we cannot even see the realms in which they exist?

The word TRINITY does not even need to be mentioned since we know Jesus's deity and WE KNOW THAT GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE SPIRIT.

 

[Mephster]

Human beings are always looking for trouble rather than simply reading the Word and seeking salvation and favor from God.

Jesus is God in flesh. Now if you disbelieve the word of John, then dispute John directly.

Jesus taught humans to direct worship to God (Spirit) , not necessarily to Jesus as he existed in flesh.

Jesus did that for a very good reason.

The Holy Spirit comes from the Father, and why should the three be compared to themselves?. It is a futile , fruitless and dangerous thing to do.

God, Jesus Holy Spirit are all in Spirit form now since we cannot see
any of them. But should we attempt trying to analyse the differences between them..... if we cannot even see the realms in which they exist?

The word TRINITY does not even need to be mentioned since we know Jesus's deity and WE KNOW THAT GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE SPIRIT.

hmmm.....

Well, outside of the Bible, there is no reason to believe that God is a unity of 3 Persons. I don't dispute the Gospel of John.... I could dispute the entire New Testament, eh?

And IS Jesus in "spirit form"? Was He not Assumed into Heaven?

 

[Oblio]

Do you believe in Santa Claus....Oblio?

No, where did I mention that I did. Chirst Himself revealed the Holy Trinity to us. Do you believe in Christ as the living Son of God ? Do you believe that Mary is the Theotokos, that is that she bore God the Word in the flesh. Do you adhere to the Nicea/Constantinopolitan Creed or the Apostles Creed ?

 

[Outspoken]

PS---

I am a Christian that does not worship a mysterious trinity god both now and unto ages of ages.

Then you're not a christian, its one of the essentials of the christian faith, always has been, always will be.

 

[GJG]

Then you're not a christian, its one of the essentials of the christian faith, always has been, always will be.

That's not a very nice thing to say to someone who truly believes that they worship Jesus. Whether right or wrong, we must keep away from a judging spirit.

Better to guide someone to what you percieve to be true, rather than steer them away from the things of God. Maybe?

Finally:

If what you say is true, then please show Biblical evidence from the NT, that this was the essential teaching from the original church.

 

[GJG]

hmmm.....

Well, outside of the Bible, there is no reason to believe that God is a unity of 3 Persons. I don't dispute the Gospel of John.... I could dispute the entire New Testament, eh?

And IS Jesus in "spirit form"? Was He not Assumed into Heaven?

Interesting question dude!

There is not much Biblical evidence of what the glorfied body of Jesus actually looks like. However Jesus Himself makes mention several times of coming back to indwell His followers as the Holy Ghost.

John 14:16-18
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.
KJV

There is an interesting verse of what Jesus looks like now though (supernaturally bright light). This was percieved to be the One True God of Jewish scripture, by the person to whom this awesome manifestation appeared. However, this person was full of the anti-Christ spirit aswell. Yet, when Jesus revealed Himself to this man, Saul recieved the revelation of what is the mystery of Godliness. He later became known as Paul!

Acts 9:1-19
9:1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.
11 The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."
15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord-Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here-has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
NIV

So we also find Jesus appearing in a vision to Ananias. This Ananias also believed this vision of the Lord to be none other than Jesus.

These are just a few of the reasons why many believe that Jesus is now in Spirit form. But I suppose no one really knows exactly what the glorified body of Jesus truly looks like. We can only use the scripture we have available.

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
KJV

This is the above mystery that was revealed to Saul/Paul and the early church. Jesus is the name of God.