The Mysterious Christian Trinity

[webboffin]

Please remind me your post number so I can be certain.

 

[TWells]

Post #58, but Im going to add some more to that when I reply to your question about Jesus being tempted so you might want to wait.

 

[webboffin]

That is fine Twells. I don't mind you taking time, this is a good opportunity for others to read and to take in depth reasonings for the come abouts of the Trinity.
I have my own busy schedule this week and next so may be a near a week before I get time to reply myself.

 

[Alessandro]

Think of the Trinity like the human being, the human being consits of Body, Soul and Spirit, three different things that make up a human, but still the same one human.

Also another example would be water/ice/vapour all the same but different forms.

God is the same one Almighty Being, but manifestes Himslef in three forms. One is thethree and the three is one.

 

[drmmjr]

No, a human being actually consists of two things which make up the third. We consist of dirt (body), breath of life (spirit) and these two combine to make us a living person (living soul).

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[Alessandro]

You get the picture

 

[webboffin]

I have not time to go deep into this as I work 12 hour days and won't be off for much time for a while.
But you still need to see the point of the coming abouts of the idea of the Trinity and that being of what God is that is often lectured. But of course it is your own free will whether you accept the Trinity from the heart or perhaps from the mind. Traditional beliefs are the hardest to overcome. Myself and many others have come to believe the Trinity was invented with good intentions to convert pagans to christianity which the concept of the Christian Trinity was first utilised in the 4th Century.
There can only be one road to Truth. It is the choice of whether you accept the Trinity God or that God is a single entity all one, which he says himself that there is only one true God and he says it suggesting he is one personality. The Trinity which ever context you look at it divides him up. But in any case I have given you the opportunity to research it up further and decide for yourself, are you believing in the holy truth or effectively worshipping a man made tradition?

 

[Outspoken]

"Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of God lives in bodily form.
Yes, Jesus had God's full authority and was born human.
But most scripture looks away from Jesus as God and Jesus made no claims he was God. Until the 4th century when again the same like Christmas and Easter the Christian Trinity was formed to aid in converting pagans who worshipped trinitarian and tri-gods to Christianity"

LOL, I don't see the word authority in there. The fullness of God was in him because he was God. The verse is quite clear and not amount of your rationalization will change that Christ made many claims he was God, and more then that, he acutally did it by actions as well.

 

[Outspoken]

It is the choice of whether you accept the Trinity God or that God is a single entity all one,

This is a wrongful statement. Trinity says there is only one God. It seems that you don't understand what trinity is.

 

[webboffin]

That is a wrong statement I do know what the Trinity stands for. But I am not a tradition believer.

 

[webboffin]

"Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of God lives in bodily form.
Yes, Jesus had God's full authority and was born human.
But most scripture looks away from Jesus as God and Jesus made no claims he was God. Until the 4th century when again the same like Christmas and Easter the Christian Trinity was formed to aid in converting pagans who worshipped trinitarian and tri-gods to Christianity"

LOL, I don't see the word authority in there. The fullness of God was in him because he was God. The verse is quite clear and not amount of your rationalization will change that Christ made many claims he was God, and more then that, he acutally did it by actions as well.

The price for human sin was not for God to die. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is the debt. Jesus had God's authority no doubt. He was sent to do and fulfill the prophecy for his Father. And it is not my own made up rationalisation there are a lot of people who don't believe in the trinity for the same reasons, it don't make sense. God is one supreme being and one personality not disolved into three. Like I am and you. You can choose to believe in the Trinity that is your conscious choice. But I feel the trinity is a fabrication that has become church doctrine not biblical.
Not Jesus nor his disciples taught the trinity.
There is God. His Son (first creation) and the Holy spirit which is God's power.
My dad went to a small Catholic school (all his schooling) during the late 30's to mid 40's which taught the trinity. He believed in the trinity but when I told him that the trinity actually meant that Jesus was God he was totally amazed and angrily denied that the catholics taught such a thing. I had to convince him it was true. It led me to come to the conclusion that his teacher had conciously left out the discussion of Jesus being God (his/her own real belief reasons) but was his/her duty to teach the trinity as just God, Son and Holy Spirit as the catholic doctrine requires but leaving out it meant Jesus equates to God. I wonder how many priests actually believe themselves in this trinity that they preach in the pulpit?
I have to add I will not say that nothing you can say to me will not change my mind (as a poster said) because that is not true and wrongful. My mind is not closed, as it means I will only accept what I want to believe and never consider the Truth with an open heart. I could believe in the Trinity but so far all the reasons of the trinity being false and is church invented doctorine far outways the reasons of it being the Truth of my God. I have my own duty to accept what I see as The Truth from created fiction.
But the subject is very interesting and I appreciate the debates by the posters. I may have time off work this weekend so I will get back to business.

 

[TWells]

God is one supreme being and one personality not disolved into three.

First of all the Trinity doesnt state that God is "disolved" into three. It statets that there are three 'persons' withing the Godhead that all share the same ontological essense.

Second, isnt this kind of making God in the image of oneself?

Like I am and you.

Ahhh....it is making God in our image. Since God is made in our 'image' and not vice versa, is he a man or a woman??

You can choose to believe in the Trinity that is your conscious choice. But I feel the trinity is a fabrication that has become church doctrine not biblical.

Yet you have conistently ignored the evidence ive shown that the Jews personified God's Wisdom, Word, Shekenah etc.

Not Jesus nor his disciples taught the trinity.

You are completely wrong. The Apostles were more than overt in their writings that Jesus was Wisdom. Jesus made many references to Wisdom writings putting Himself in the role.

There is God. His Son (first creation) and the Holy spirit which is God's power.

Ive shown to you that the Jews used terms like "firstborn" to describe God's Wisdom - but you've ignored that as well.

My dad went to a small Catholic school (all his schooling) which taught the trinity. He believed in the trinity but when I told him that the trinity actually meant that Jesus was God he was totally amazed and angrily denied that the catholics taught such a thing. I had to convince him it was true. It led me to come to the conclusion that his teacher had conciously left out the discussion of Jesus being God (his/her own real belief reasons) but was his/her duty to teach the trinity as just God, Son and Holy Spirit as a catholic requirement but leaving out it meant Jesus = God. I wonder how many priests actually believe themselves in this trinity that they preach in the pulpit?

Pullleeeeeeeeeeeez....No offense, but if your Father was raised a Catholic and educated in a Catholic school then I think that says FAR more about whether Father actually paid any attention that it does whether his teachers believed in the Trinity.

Im off tonight so im going to finally post tonight.

 

[webboffin]

I will get back to your points but need sleep got 12 hours shift in a few hours
But my father of couse paid attention. He was well educated by the school. He had a successful career life.
And he is Christian and takes God as seriously as you. But he never went on to become Catholic because he did also believe it was corrupted by power and politics. But that is another issue.

 

[Outspoken]

The price for human sin was not for God to die. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is the debt. Jesus had God's authority no doubt. He was sent to do and fulfill the prophecy for his Father. And it is not my own made up rationalisation there are a lot of people who don't believe in the trinity for the same reasons, it don't make sense. God is one supreme being and one personality not disolved into three. Like I am and you. You can choose to believe in the Trinity that is your conscious choice. But I feel the trinity is a fabrication that has become church doctrine not biblical.
Not Jesus nor his disciples taught the trinity.
There is God. His Son (first creation) and the Holy spirit which is God's power.
My dad went to a small Catholic school (all his schooling) during the late 30's to mid 40's which taught the trinity. He believed in the trinity but when I told him that the trinity actually meant that Jesus was God he was totally amazed and angrily denied that the catholics taught such a thing. I had to convince him it was true. It led me to come to the conclusion that his teacher had conciously left out the discussion of Jesus being God (his/her own real belief reasons) but was his/her duty to teach the trinity as just God, Son and Holy Spirit as the catholic doctrine requires but leaving out it meant Jesus equates to God. I wonder how many priests actually believe themselves in this trinity that they preach in the pulpit?
I have to add I will not say that nothing you can say to me will not change my mind (as a poster said) because that is not true and wrongful. My mind is not closed, as it means I will only accept what I want to believe and never consider the Truth with an open heart. I could believe in the Trinity but so far all the reasons of the trinity being false and is church invented doctorine far outways the reasons of it being the Truth of my God. I have my own duty to accept what I see as The Truth from created fiction.
But the subject is very interesting and I appreciate the debates by the posters. I may have time off work this weekend so I will get back to business.

you misunderstand. To claim you have God's full authority for your own teachings (not ones that you directly get from scripture) is to put yourself on the level of God. This goes against the 1st commandment, thus Christ was showing he was God. It sounds like your father was taught by poor teachers or that he truely didn't understand what they taught him. The catholic church and the universal church have been proclaiming Christ was God since his death and resurrection when we recieved the holy spirit and understood. As for the trinity, it is clearly supported by scripture and as I said before, Christ not only said he was God but showed it as well.

 

[TWells]

Weboffin,

You have asked many times why the word "trinity" is not found in the NT or in the Bible. I have replied that the fact that the doctrines mere name does not appear in scripture is irrelevant because the scriptural support is there. Aside from the fact that the Trinitarian forumala does indeed appear in the NT ("...baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit.") I believe 1st century Jews were exremely familair with it because the "Trinity" doctrine is simply a westernized version of the Wisdom/Word template. This also shows why the first Christians had no problem associating deity to Christ and worshipping Him along with the Father on equal and completely monotheistic terms. The OT Jews divided up aspects of Gods personality as they worked within the world: His Wisdom, Torah, Shekenah and Word (Memra) for example. All of these were personified and it was never seen as compromising Jewish monotheism as NT Wright states

"...[monotheism] was never, in the Jewish literature of the crucial period, an analysis of the inner being of God, a kind of numerical statement about, so to speak, what God was like on the inside." Rather, it was "always a polemical statement directed outwards against the pagan nations."

Philo the Jewish philosopher and a contemporary of Jesus states in regards to the men who visited Abraham in Genesis 18:2:

...the one in the middle is the Father of the Universe, who in the sacred scriptures is called by his proper name, I am that I am; and the beings on each side are those most ancient powers which are always close to the living God, one of which is called his creative power, and the other his royal power.

Philo was never considered a blashpemor or seen as compromising monotheism but here he's using very "trinitarian" language.

The background for the Wisdom template is "hypostasis" which is the "quasi-personification of attributes proper to a deity" and was a very common practice in the Ancient Near East. Throughout OT history the Prophets and Sages helped guide Israel. A heavy emphasis is put on wisdom and the desire to have a wise and Godly king. John the Baptist was the last of the classical line of OT eschatological prophets and falls perfectly in line with them. Jesus on the other hand while obviously a eschatological prophet, nevertheless differed from them in many ways. The New Testament scholar Ben Witherington III states about this difference:

...Jesus seems never to have used the formulas one normally expects of a prophet. He never seems to see himself as a mouthpiece for God, prefacing his remarks with "thus says the Lord," but rather speaks on his own authority, or as Mark 1:27 suggests, as one who has independent authority. Furthermore, over and over again in the synoptics one gets the impression that Jesus' public mode of discourse was one or another form of wisdom speach, including riddles, parables, aphorisms, personifications and beatitudes. [...] here [Matthew 11:16-19/Luke 7:31-35] we find a deliberate contrast between Jesus' lifestyle and that of John. Jesus as the Son of Man came eating and drinking, celebrating and dancing, while John came in ascetic fashion as if in mourning. Yet neither style seemed to please the audience. Jesus in particular was accused of being a drunkard and friend of toll collectors and sinners. The passage ends with the remark "Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." In other words, though the Son of Man does not receive affirmation or confirmation from some of his audience, nevertheless his actions vindicate him as God's Wisdom.

In Old Testament and Intertestamental literature the Wisdom/Sophia was a personified attribute. In Proverbs 8:22-30:

22 "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,

Proverbs 2:6 "For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding." connects Wisdom with the "Word" which is seen all over the OT with a power all its own. The Apostle John later combined Wisdom and Word when he redefined them in the prologue to his Gospel.

Sirach 1:1-4

All wisdom cometh from the Lord, and is with him for ever.

1:2 Who can number the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of eternity?

1:3 Who can find out the height of heaven, and the breadth of the earth, and the deep, and wisdom?

1:4 Wisdom hath been created before all things, and the understanding of prudence from everlasting.

Notice that Wisdom "cometh from the Lord and is with him for ever." and was "created before all things" Notice the similarity between Pauls Jesus who was created and being the "firstborn" yet Wisdom is entirely apart of God. John heavily echoes Sirach in his Gospel as the "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God and the Word was God." All of this is completely in line with Trinitarian theology and as I plan to show later on, inline with Paul and the early Church's Christology.

I came out of the mouth of the most High, and covered the earth as a cloud. I dwelt in high places, and my throne is in a cloudy pillar. I alone compassed the circuit of heaven, and walked in the bottom of the deep.

Here Wisdom praises herself in the presence of God and equates herself with the Word. She also states that her throne is a "cloudy pillar" which is commonly used in the Old Testament to represent God's presence. Its interesting to note that when YHWH judged nations like Egypt scripture states that he went out on a cloud just as Jesus stated he would judge Israel and come on the "clouds of heaven with power and glory" in the Olivet Discourse.

In the intertestamental book The Wisdom of Solomon Wisdom is described as "the breath of the power of God and a pure effluence flowing from the Almighty" (7:25) and is said to be the "IMAGE" of the the "goodness of God" (7:26). Wisdom and Word are equated in 9:2 and with parting the Red Sea in 10:18-19.

 

[TWells]

CONTINUED....

-----------------------

In the Gospels Jesus equates himself several times with Wisdom. In Matthew 8:20/Luke 9:58

And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."

This is Wisdom terminology echoed in Sirach 24:6-7, Enoch 42:2 and Sirach 32:31.

In Matthew 11:16-19//Luke 7:31-2

"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,

"‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

Here Jesus speaks of Wisdoms rejection which is a common theme in Wisdom literature and he makes obvious references to Wisdom eating and drinking with sinners. There are many parallels with Proverbs 1:24-28:

24 Because I have called and you refused to listen,
have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
25 because you have ignored all my counsel
and would have none of my reproof,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when terror strikes you,
27 when terror strikes you like a storm
and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
when distress and anguish come upon you.
28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
they will seek me diligently but will not find me.

Matthew 11:29-30 is very overt:

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

...with Jesus comparing himself to and quoting from Sirach 51:26:

Put your neck under the yoke, and let your soul receive instruction: she is hard at hand to find.

This is also echoed in Sirach 6:19-31.

In Matthew 12:42 Jesus states:

The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

...and makes connections with Sirach claiming that something "greater" that Solomon was here.

Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,

Notice here in Matthew 23:34 that Jesus states "I send you prophets..." but in the Lucan parallel:

Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute

...Its the "Wisdom of God said".

There is such a tremendous amount of parallels like these that show Jesus, The Apostles and the Apostle Paul worked with and fit Jesus into a built in Wisdom "template". Its intersting that the most highly Christological of the Gospels also contains by far the most parallels to Wisdom theology. Raymond E. Brown the New Testament scholar states in An Introduction to New Testament Christology that "there is nothing to match the massive amount of echoes in John."

Because im tired and I want to go to bed and because you should be able to see where im going at this point and there is such a massive amount of parallels in John and Pauls writings im just going to copy and paste a list of the parallels:

 

[TWells]

JOHNS PROLOGUE:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Wisdom of Solomon 9:9 With you (God) is Wisdom, who knows your works and was present when you made the world.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Proverbs 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (1:11)

1 Enoch 42:2 Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men, and found no dwelling place.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Sirach 24:8 The one who created me assigned a place for my tent. And he said: 'Make your dwelling in Jerusalem.'

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.

Wisdom of Solomon 16:26 On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval. So that your children, whom you loved, O Lord, might learn that it is not the production of crops that feeds humankind but that your word sustains those who trust in you.

John 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command.

Wisdom of Solomon 16:18 And love of Wisdom is the keeping of her laws, and giving heed to her laws is assurance of immortality.

MORE...

The Word was in the beginning (John 1:1)

Wisdom was in the beginning (Prov. 8:22-23, Sir. 1:4, Wis. 9:9)

The Word was with God (John 1:1)

Wisdom was with God (Prov. 8:30, Sir. 1:1, Wis. 9:4)

The Word was cocreator (John 1:1-3)

Wisdom was cocreator (Prov. 3:19, 8:25; Is. 7:21, 9:1-2)

The Word provides light (John 1:4, 9)

Wisdom provides light (Prov. 8:22, Wis. 7:26, 8:13; Sir. 4:12)

Word as light in contrast to darkness (John 1:5)

Wisdom as light in contrast to darkness (Wis. 7:29-30)

The Word was in the world (John 1:10)

Wisdom was in the world (Wis. 8:1, Sir. 24:6)

The Word was rejected by its own (John 1:11)

Wisdom was rejected by its own (Sir. 15:7)

The Word was received by the faithful (John 1:12)

Wisdom was received by the faithful (Wis. 7:27)

Christ is the bread of life (John 6:35)

Wisdom is the bread or substance of life (Prov. 9:5, Sir. 15:3, 24:21, 29:21; Wis. 11:4)

Christ is the light of the world (John 8:12)

Wisdom is light (Wis. 7:26-30, 18:3-4)

Christ is the door of the sheep and the good shepherd (John 10:7, 11, 14)

Wisdom is the door and the good shepherd (Prov. 8:34-5, Wis. 7:25-7, 8:2-16; Sir. 24:19-22)

Christ is life (John 11:25)

Wisdom brings life (Prov. 3:16, 8:35, 9:11; Wis. 8:13)

Christ is the way to truth (John 14:6)

Wisdom is the way (Prov. 3:17, 8:32-34; Sir. 6:26)

THE LETTERS OF PAUL...

Wisdom 1:4: Wisdom existed before all things.... 1 Corinthians 2:7: ...wisdom that God predestined before the ages.... Wisdom 1:6: To whom has the root of wisdom been revealed? 1 Corinthians 2:10: God revealed these things to us.... Wisdom 1:10: ...he has given [wisdom] to those who love him. 1 Corinthians 2:9: ...which God has prepared for those who love him. Wisdom 1:15: [Wisdom] has built an eternal foundation among men.... 1 Corinthians 3:10: ...as a wise architect I laid down a foundation.... Wisdom 2:5: Gold is tested in the fire.... 1 Corinthians 3:12-13: And if any man builds upon the foundation with gold or silver or precious stones..., it is to be revealed in fire.

Colossians 1:15-18 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Colossians 1:15a He is the image of the invisible God...

Wisdom of Solomon 7:26 (Wisdom is) a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.

Colossians 1:15b ...the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:16a ...by him all things were created..

Wisdom of Solomon 1:14 "for he created all things that they might exist"

Sirach 1:4 and Philo refer to Wisdom as the "master workman" of creation.

Colossians 1:17b He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Wisdom of Solomon 1:7 ...that which holds all things together knows what is said...

Weboffin, I will respond to Jesus being tempted tomorrow.

In Christ,

Travis

 

[t888]

The Trinity doctrine is the teaching of men that is designed to take your eyes of the truth that God became a Father when he begat a Son. The Trinity doctrine comes from Babylon and God judged Babylon for it's idolatory.

Come out of her my people, for her sins have piled up to heaven. She has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

 

[TWells]

In other words, you cant argue your point or respond to anything that has been said in this thread?

 

[webboffin]

Come back to you on points, but I have yet to have a day off period from my rigorous long shifts to properly devote time. See you all soon