The Mysterious Christian Trinity

[TWells]

Your heresy was exposed and condemned 1500 years ago. Repackaging it with a modern spin is not going to deceive the faithful.

What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun. - Ecclesiastes 1:9

 

[UK-Yank]

i think i may be able to sum the holy trinity up in three words:

MIND , BODY + SOUL

any objections?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Yep I have a question since this scripture seems to say that Adam didn'thave a soul as much as he was one once God gave him the breath of life. Also if you look at the word that is translated into soul you will find it is from the Hebrew word nephish. And if you look in strongs dictionary encyclopedia you will find out that it embodies the idea of the mind. That would make sense since it was God giving him the breath of life that caused him to be soul.It was at the moment of becoming a living man that Adam would have begun to have thoughts and use the "mind".

Also the scriptures refer to God as a "soul".

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

Again, if the word soul has reference to the mind or being a living thing, it makes sense that God could be a soul. So if you look at the correct meaning of the word soul and the hebrew word it was translated, those things are all one thing, not three things that make us some kind of trinity.

Christina

 

[UK-Yank]

Do you adhere to the Nicea/Constantinopolitan Creed or the Apostles Creed ?

as a matter of fact, with all due respect I do not. i adhere to what the bible teaches.
Christina

 

[Oblio]

as a matter of fact, with all due respect I do not. i adhere to what the bible teaches.

Holy Scripture References to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed

 

[UK-Yank]

Then you're not a christian, its one of the essentials of the christian faith, always has been, always will be.

Wow and I thought we had to wait till judgement day to find out.

 

[Outspoken]

Outspoken,
You are sidestepping the issue.

Who did Jesus worship?
Who did Jesus pray to?

It is quite obvious is it not?

Christ worshiped and was worshiped, He prayed to the Father because he was limited in power when he was on earth. I can list you several verses showing he was God, though if you want to take pieces of scripture, and not it as a whole, I'm sure you can support your view, but not if you look at the whole book.

 

[Outspoken]

Then you're not a christian, its one of the essentials of the christian faith, always has been, always will be.

Wow and I thought we had to wait till judgement day to find out.

Nope. For some very major things, God has left us a clear cut instruction manual. Its call the bible For example, if you do not worship God, you're not a christian. If you don't believe in basics of christianity, you're not a christian.

 

[webboffin]

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

When a person takes it upon him/herself to state if you do not believe exactly what I/we believe to be the truth then you are not a Christian then that person is making themselves the judge.

If a belief of the Trinity is because I am told yet when I deeply search myself in the Holy scripture and cannot find. I have a duty not to accept the truth just on being told.

There are today a lot of different beliefs and sects of Christianity and of course our Christian faith is sacred to all of us but when we take it upon ourself to start telling people that because a Christian belief are not the same as ours they are NOT- NO WAY a Christian then they are overstepping their bounds.The Bible tells us to show humility and not think more of ourselves than is necessary.

If I and others who not believe in the Trinity it is because we have looked but see no real evidence in scripture.

 

[webboffin]

Nope. For some very major things, God has left us a clear cut instruction manual. Its call the bible For example, if you do not worship God, you're not a christian. If you don't believe in basics of christianity, you're not a christian.

What I made in bold lettering in your quote may translated to the reader as: If you don't believe in MY basics of christianity, you're not a christian.

 

[TWells]

Hi all,

There are today a lot of different beliefs and sects of Christianity and of course our Christian faith is sacred to all of us but when we take it upon ourself to start telling people that because a Christian belief are not the same as ours they are NOT- NO WAY a Christian then they are overstepping their bounds.The Bible tells us to show humility and not think more of ourselves than is necessary.

I would suggest re-reading the NT. The Apostles certainly were not of the opinion that there are many different Christianities and 'Who are we to say?..' We are to defend the faith and confront heretical teachings as Paul speaks about quite plainly. I havent paid close enough attention to know what your particular beliefs are but the deity of Christ is the central Christian belief and is a salvation issue. That doesnt mean that I believe that Modalists are not saved but I do believe they reject a central truth about the Christian God - whom we are to worship in "spirit and truth."
In Christ, Travis

 

[webboffin]

Hey

Show me the word 'bible'. This continues to be the most pointless argument ever. A 'doctrine' is a summarized belief we make when taking the whole of scripture to support this belief. The NAME we give the doctrine is irrelevant. So we have terms like "original sin" and "trinity" that while the specific terms are not found in the Bible the scriptural support is.
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In Christ,

Travis

The word Bible is on the front cover.

Where is the Trinity supported in the Bible?

I know what you believe is the truth and I am too wanting the truth. If I can be shown with no doubt in scripture that the Trinity is true then I will be happy to accept. So far, I have found no direct evidence and I read things concerning Jesus that to me that seems to detail that Jesus is a creation of God and was not directly God himself.

 

[lared]

Exactly.

The word Father means life-giver.

The word son means offspring.

Notice that in the Bible, their relationship is explained as Father/Son.......not egg, triangle, nor water.

 

[Oblio]

So far, I have found no direct evidence and I read things concerning Jesus that to me that seems to detail that Jesus is a creation of God and was not directly God himself.

BTW, this is simply the Arian heresy of 1500 years ago, reborn, repackaged, but heresy nonetheless.

c.f. the following Scripture that states otherwise:

John 1:18 The only Begotten of the Father, not made
John 1:1 The Word was God before all time.

 

[lared]

I believe a reading of the book of Daniel is in order, especially chapter 12.

 

[webboffin]

Joh 14:28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

 

[webboffin]

BTW, this is simply the Arian heresy of 1500 years ago, reborn, repackaged, but heresy nonetheless.

c.f. the following Scripture that states otherwise:

John 1:18 The only Begotten of the Father, not made
John 1:1 The Word was God before all time.

Actually John 1:18 reads in comparison with other Bible versions.

Joh 1:18

(ALT) No one has seen God at any time. The only-begotten [or, unique] Son, the One in the bosom of the Father, that One explained [Him] [or, made [Him] known].

(ASV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(GNB) No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

(ISV) No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.

(KJV+) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(LITV) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him.

 

[webboffin]

BTW, this is simply the Arian heresy of 1500 years ago, reborn, repackaged, but heresy nonetheless.

c.f. the following Scripture that states otherwise:

John 1:18 The only Begotten of the Father, not made
John 1:1 The Word was God before all time.

Monogeues (Greek) meaning Begotten. Begotton translated means born

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Bible says that Jesus was the first of his creation the beginning of his works.

You can tell me all about the man made traditions and beliefs all you want but I believe what I see in the Bible.

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

It's possible for people to be sincere but when they basing their beliefs on what councils decide and what religious leaders say as true but it conflicts with what the Bible scripture clearly states then they are putting themselves in danger of being one of the above that Matthew is talking about in those scriptures.

 

[TWells]

Hey all,

Actually John 1:18 reads in comparison with other Bible versions.

Joh 1:18

(ALT) No one has seen God at any time. The only-begotten [or, unique] Son, the One in the bosom of the Father, that One explained [Him] [or, made [Him] known].

(ASV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(GNB) No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

(ISV) No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.

(KJV+) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(LITV) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him.

You cant really be dogmatic about this verse but the textual evidence does favor monogenes theos or "...the one and only God." as the most accurate reading. Bruce Metzger (one of the worlds leading NT scholars) states in A Textual Commentary on the New Testament that the aquisition of two very early MSS, P66 and P75 both of which read monogenes theos and the fact that the same reading is found in Codex Vaticanus and Codex Siniaticus indicate "...the one and only God." as the most likely reading.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

This actually favors the opposite of what your asserting. Follwing John in showing Jesus to be eternally begotten Word/Wisdom of God, Paul makes many allusions to Wisdom literature.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God...

Wisdom of Solomon 7:26 (Wisdom is) a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.

The reference to Jesus being the "firstborn" was a common reference to Wisdom. Philo, the Jewish philosopher and a comtemporary of Jesus makes references to a "firstborn son" and offspring of God in entirely Jewish monotheistic terms. This was a very common idea.Jews believed that the "words" of God had autonomous powers in and of themself. It was through Gods words that He created ex nihlio, Jesus and the Apostles claimed that Jesus was the "Word" incarnate. This explains why the Son would be
functionally subordinate to the Father and why he would have ignorance of certain things that only the Father knows. For example the time of His vindication He wouldnt know because it had not yet been "spoken". The prologue in Johns Gospel interweaves these concepts of the Word/Wisdom beautifully. Portions where Jesus speaks of being sent by the Father are obviously ment to allude to passages like Isaiah 55:9-11 which speaks of God sending his Word.

Colossians 1:16 ...by him all things were created..

Wisdom of Solomon 1:14 "for he created all things that they might exist"

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Wisdom of Solomon 1:7 ...that which holds all things together knows what is said...

What the Old Testament and Intertestamental writers said of Word/Wisdom/Shekinah Jesus and the Apostles said of him. Christ made allusions to His role as Wisdom in the Gospels as well:

And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” - Matthew 8:20

This is a obvious quote from Sirach 24:6-7 and 1 Enoch 42:2 with Jesus acting out the role of Wisdom.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” - Matthew 11:29-30

Jesus alludes here to Sirach 6:19-31 and Sirach 51:26.

"'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."' But wisdom is proved right by all her children." - Matthew 11:16-19//Luke 7:31-2

You can tell me all about the man made traditions and beliefs all you want but I believe what I see in the Bible.

I would suggest learning about the theological context the NT was wrote in.

It's possible for people to be sincere but when they basing their beliefs on what councils decide and what religious leaders say as true but it conflicts with what the Bible scripture clearly states then they are putting themselves in danger of being one of the above that Matthew is talking about in those scriptures.

You are really beating a dead horse here. Your the only one bringing up the councils and creeds. No one is using later Church councils that affirmed already held beliefs to argue their point.

In Christ,

Travis

 

[webboffin]

Hi, TWells

A lot of information but you have not changed the fact that he is the first born of all creation.
And the scriptures say that.
You sum up a complex thought on what the scriptures can mean.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The image is like I myself had a child, he is the image of me. He is not me in actual person.


Oblio is the one that brought up those councils and creeds.

 

[TWells]

Hi webboffin,

A lot of information but you have not changed the fact that he is the first born of all creation.

You cant take what your understanding of "firstborn" means and shove it into a theological context of a ANE culture two thousand years ago. You need to find out first what they meant and interpret it that way. The personification of Wisdom and Word were divine, they were God. By putting Jesus in that role they were claiming Jesus to be God, to be Shekinah the tabernacling presence of God in the Temple and that had been following the Children of Israel around the desert in tents. Jesus as the Word/Wisdom was the "firstborn" in the sense that God is always generating His word. the Best analogy I can think of is a star. It generates the light and the rays of light are still apart of it. Of course its an analogy and it breaks down at some point but you I hope you get what im saying. They used terms like "firstborn" to describe God and in a compeltely monotheistic way.

The image is like I myself had a child, he is the image of me. He is not me in actual person.

This is a different context that has nothing to do with how God created man. God was described as being involved in the world in different ways in the OT like, Wisdom, Word, Torah, Shekinah, Spirit. Jesus and the Apostels claimed He was Wisdom/Word. You've not dealt with this.

In Christ,

Travis