The Moral Argument

[anonymous person]

No, the first step is not rejecting what you believe to be true. It is taking a leap of faith by putting a little trust in a God that you do not believe in. Like in the movie "The Matrix" where Morpheus gave Neo choice between the red pill and the blue pill. Neo had to have some level of trust in Morpheus that the pills wouldn't kill him. The fact that he took the pill alone was a leap of faith. So go on...take the pill. What's there to loose?

His intellectual integrity won't allow him to do that.

I'm still unclear as to what they mean when they use that phrase.

 

[anonymous person]

No, cognitive dissonance does not sit well with me. I do not like to hold conflicting beliefs.

Your asking that I put little trust in a God that I do not believe in sounds like this to me:

Do you write letters to Santa? Why not? Do you not want free stuff?​

Not at all. At that point in the movie Neo already had the experience of the 'bug' in the interrogation room, and its subsequent removal in the car. He had already been presented with compelling evidence that something was afoot far greater than his current understanding of the world.

Other than my intellectual integrity? There is the problem that belief in not a conscious choice. I cannot just flip a switch in my head and say "today, I will believe in gods...".

How about you? Can you just change your beliefs without compelling reasons?

We don't want you to change your mind. We don't want you to do anything you are not willing to do actually.

We can tell you the reasons for the hope we have, but that's about all. I think we have done that well.

 

[Davian]

His intellectual integrity won't allow him to do that.

Actually, what I have been saying is that as belief in not a conscious choice, I cannot just flip a switch in my head and say "today, I will believe in gods...".

How about you? Can you just change your beliefs without compelling reasons?

I'm still unclear as to what they mean when they use that phrase.

Obviously. Have you considered trying to see these issues from another's perspective?

 

[Davian]

We don't want you to change your mind.

Do you speak for everyone on this board? How do you know what motivates each of them?

We don't want you to do anything you are not willing to do actually.

What I believe is not subject to my will. I cannot just flip a switch in my head and say "today, I will believe in gods...".

How about you? Can you just change your beliefs without compelling reasons?

We can tell you the reasons for the hope we have, but that's about all.

Then you are abandoning the moral argument?

I think we have done that well.

Standards

• Davian
• Jun 1, 2015

 

[anonymous person]

Actually, what I have been saying is that as belief in not a conscious choice, I cannot just flip a switch in my head and say "today, I will believe in gods...".

How about you? Can you just change your beliefs without compelling reasons?
Obviously. Have you considered trying to see these issues from another's perspective?

No one is asking you to change your beliefs without having compelling reasons to do so.

Additionally, I was born again in the year 2006. Prior to that I lived as an unregenerate, godless person. I am 31 now. So you see, for the majority of my life I did see things from a different perspective than I do now. I have been an unregenerate and now I am born again. You have not been born again, so if anything, you are the one who suffers from seeing things from one perspective.

 

[Davian]

...
Now we are simply playing the game of stump the chump so atheists can have a sense of accomplishment.

One of us is just a n00b with some questions, and the other thinks they have an all-knowing all-powerful deity riding shotgun in their life. Who is the "chump" that has the disadvantage here?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

There is the problem that belief in not a conscious choice. I cannot just flip a switch in my head and say "today, I will believe in gods...".

How about you? Can you just change your beliefs without compelling reasons?

Belief is a product of understanding and knowledge. I do not think you can simply choose to believe or not believe something. Faith is different. Faith is the product of trust. It is trust with a lack of knowledge or understanding. I believe that through faith and trust, God will give you the knowledge and understanding to believe. This is grace.

You cannot choose to believe or not believe. But you can choose to act on faith.

Edit: listen to the wise words of the great George Michaels.

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[Davian]

No one is asking you to change your beliefs without having compelling reasons to do so.

Sapiens and Jason are. Jason did offer cookies, though.

Additionally, I was born again in the year 2006. Prior to that I lived as an unregenerate, godless person. I am 31 now. So you see, for the majority of my life I did see things from a different perspective than I do now. I have been an unregenerate and now I am born again. You have not been born again, so if anything, you are the one who suffers from seeing things from one perspective.

The subject is intellectual integrity. Do you not have personal experience with having this?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Sapiens and Jason are. Jason did offer cookies, though.

The subject is intellectual integrity. Do you not have personal experience with having this?

We got chocolate chip those awesome fudge filled delights.

 

[anonymous person]

Do you speak for everyone on this board?

Nope. I can use the word "we" without speaking for everyone. If only there is one other person here who agrees with me saying we don't want you to change your mind if that is not something you wish to do, then the word "we" is appropriate. I think I can speak for a great deal of Christians here in that respect.

How do you know what motivates each of them?

I don't have to know what motivates a person in order to say that person shares a particular view of mine.

What I believe is not subject to my will. I cannot just flip a switch in my head and say "today, I will believe in gods...".

Great. Neither can I.

you are abandoning the moral argument?

Oh goodness no. I thinks it's a great argument.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We don't want you to change your mind. We don't want you to do anything you are not willing to do actually.

We can tell you the reasons for the hope we have, but that's about all. I think we have done that well.

You think you've done that well? Oh boy...

 

[anonymous person]

You think you've done that well? Oh boy...

Yes I do. I have told you how God came into my life at a time when I was completely without hope and helpless to do anything with the guilt I had for the things I had done in my life and the people I had hurt. I have told you how He is changing me, my mind, my heart, and how I now can love when before I could only hate. I have told about how He enables me to see life in a new light and how He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way. I have told you how Jesus lives in my heart. But I have not told you the most important thing and I will now. I love Jesus with all that I am. I love Him unashamedly and truly and though I admit I have not honored Him with some of the things I have done here, all I want is for Him to be proud of me.

 

[quatona]

Yes I do. I have told you how God came into my life at a time when I was completely without hope and helpless to do anything with the guilt I had for the things I had done in my life and the people I had hurt. I have told you how He is changing me, my mind, my heart, and how I now can love when before I could only hate. I have told about how He enables me to see life in a new light and how He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way. I have told you how Jesus lives in my heart. But I have not told you the most important thing and I will now. I love Jesus with all that I am. I love Him unashamedly and truly and though I admit I have not honored Him with some of the things I have done here, all I want is for Him to be proud of me.

Ok, cool story. Now, what´s all that got to do with the moral argument again?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Ok, cool story. Now, what´s all that got to do with the moral argument again?

Nothing. We already beat that horse into hamburger. We are just having fun now. Please catch up. Lol. [emoji1]

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes I do. I have told you how God came into my life at a time when I was completely without hope and helpless to do anything with the guilt I had for the things I had done in my life and the people I had hurt. I have told you how He is changing me, my mind, my heart, and how I now can love when before I could only hate. I have told about how He enables me to see life in a new light and how He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way. I have told you how Jesus lives in my heart. But I have not told you the most important thing and I will now. I love Jesus with all that I am. I love Him unashamedly and truly and though I admit I have not honored Him with some of the things I have done here, all I want is for Him to be proud of me.

Yes, you've told me all that. Now reflect on what you haven't done. What haven't you done?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Ok, cool story. Now, what´s all that got to do with the moral argument again?

He only demands that we stay "on-topic" when it suits him.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No one is asking you to change your beliefs without having compelling reasons to do so.

Additionally, I was born again in the year 2006. Prior to that I lived as an unregenerate, godless person. I am 31 now. So you see, for the majority of my life I did see things from a different perspective than I do now. I have been an unregenerate and now I am born again. You have not been born again, so if anything, you are the one who suffers from seeing things from one perspective.

As you well know, I was a Christian, so you can't use this deflection tactic on everyone.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

His intellectual integrity won't allow him to do that.

I'm still unclear as to what they mean when they use that phrase.

That's no surprise:

You began this thread ostensibly for the purpose of answering questions posed to you. However, your responses to certain questions have been nothing but vague, and other questions have gone completely unanswered. First, I asked you about the importance of intellectual honesty in the pursuit of truth (1), and received no answer. Then I asked you whether you were open to be convinced on the question of Jesus' historicity (2). Again, I received no answer.

Shortly thereafter, you claimed to have examined diverse religious claims with the "desire to be objective, honest, and open" (3). Curious about this, I inquired whether this meant you were open to questioning the authorship of scripture and the claims contained therein (4). To my surprise, you reported that you were (5). Moreover, you acknowledged fallibilism in relation to your religious beliefs (6, 7), in contrast to what you had earlier claimed (8).

As I harboured severe doubts about your intellectual honesty in this discourse (9), I took this as a positive sign that you had reflected on and modified your philosophical praxis. However, the evasiveness of your most recent responses to my question about appeals to personal religious experience, which tend to reflect a disposition you putatively no longer hold (10), suggests that some kernel of your old habit of thought remains intact. This would imply that, contrary to your earlier claims, you are not open to reconsidering or revising your theological commitments. This in turn raises the same question I posed earlier: in what way is your approach to these matters "objective, honest, and open"? How can one approach such questions honestly if one is not willing to accept the possibility of error or the need for conceptual revision?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

"Unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 18:3. We ought to approach the bible with the faith of a child just like a child has unquestionable faith and trust in their parents. I recommend that before you read scripture, pray for God to remove the callous from your heart and remove any doubt and scepticism you have.

Do you pray for the suspension of critical thinking before reading any other books?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Do you pray for the suspension of critical thinking before reading any other books?

Do you like cookies? We got pepridge farm on the Christian side of the house.