The Moral Argument

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Easy believism is a somewhat derogatory term used by opponents of the view that one needs only to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. From this they conclude that those who hold to sola fide (“faith alone”) teach that no corresponding need exists for a committed life of Christian discipleship as proof of salvation; however, that is not what sola fide means. True faith in Christ will always lead to a changed life. Another common usage of the term easy believism is in regards to those who believe they’re saved because they prayed a prayer—with no real conviction of sin and no real faith in Christ. Praying a prayer is easy—thus the term easy believism—but there is more to salvation than mouthing words.

Much of the debate over easy believism is unnecessary and is based on a misunderstanding of the Scriptures. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The essence of this doctrine is found in Ephesians 2:8–9: “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” So we see that faith, given as a gift by God, is what saves us. But the next verse tells of the results of that salvation: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Rather than being saved by some easy act of our own wills, we are saved by the hand of God Almighty, by His will and for His use. We are His servants, and from the moment of salvation by faith, we embark on a journey of pre-ordained good works that are the evidence of that salvation. If there is no evidence of growth and good works, we have reason to doubt that salvation ever truly took place. “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:20), and a dead faith is not a saving faith.

“Faith alone” does not mean that some believers follow Christ in a life of discipleship, while others do not. The concept of the “carnal Christian,” as a separate category of non-spiritual believer, is completely unscriptural. The idea of the carnal Christian says that a person may receive Christ as Savior during a religious experience but never manifest evidence of a changed life. This is a false and dangerous teaching in that it excuses various ungodly lifestyles: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or thief, but he’s “saved” because he prayed a prayer as a child; he’s just a “carnal Christian.” The Bible nowhere supports the idea that a true Christian can remain carnal for an entire lifetime. Rather, God’s Word presents only two categories of people: Christians and non-Christians, believers and unbelievers, those who have bowed to the Lordship of Christ and those who have not (see John 3:36; Romans 6:17–18; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:18–24; Ephesians 2:1–5; 1 John 1:5–7; 2:3–4).

While the security of salvation is a biblical fact based upon the finished work of salvation by Christ, it is certainly true that some of those who seemed to have “made a decision” or “accepted Christ” may not genuinely be saved. As noted before, true salvation is not so much our accepting Christ as it is His accepting us. We are saved by the power of God for the purpose of God, and that purpose includes the works that give evidence of our conversion. Those who continue to walk according to the flesh are not believers (Romans 8:5–8). This is why Paul exhorts us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith” (2 Corinthians 13:5). The “carnal” Christian who examines himself will soon see that he/she is not in the faith.

James 2:19 says, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” The type of “belief” demons have can be compared to the intellectual assent made by those who “believe” in Jesus in the fact that He exists or that He was a good person. Many unbelievers say, “I believe in God” or “I believe in Jesus”; others say, “I prayed a prayer, and the preacher said I was saved.” But such prayers and such belief do not necessarily signal a change of heart. The problem is a misunderstanding of the word believe. With true salvation comes genuine repentance and real life change. Second Corinthians 5:17 says that those who are in Christ are a “new creation.” Is it possible that the new person Christ creates is one who continues to walk in the carnality of the flesh? No.

Salvation is certainly free, but, at the same time, it costs us everything. We are to die to ourselves as we change into the likeness of Christ. Where easy believism fails is its lack of recognition that a person with faith in Jesus will lead a progressively changed life. Salvation is a free gift from God to those who believe, but discipleship and obedience are the response that will no doubt occur when one truly comes to Christ in faith

 

[DogmaHunter]

My point was that being born again does not make one exempt from being held accountable for the sins they commit. Actions have consequences regardless of one's relationship with God.

But, once more, accountability to society and other humans, is not the topic of this thread.

In fact, to whom much is given, much will be required. He who has been born again is held to a far greater and higher standard than he who is not.

Can a moral atheist get to heaven?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Easy believism is a somewhat derogatory term used by opponents of the view that one needs only to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. From this they conclude that those who hold to sola fide (“faith alone”) teach that no corresponding need exists for a committed life of Christian discipleship as proof of salvation; however, that is not what sola fide means. True faith in Christ will always lead to a changed life. Another common usage of the term easy believism is in regards to those who believe they’re saved because they prayed a prayer—with no real conviction of sin and no real faith in Christ. Praying a prayer is easy—thus the term easy believism—but there is more to salvation than mouthing words.

Much of the debate over easy believism is unnecessary and is based on a misunderstanding of the Scriptures. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The essence of this doctrine is found in Ephesians 2:8–9: “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” So we see that faith, given as a gift by God, is what saves us. But the next verse tells of the results of that salvation: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Rather than being saved by some easy act of our own wills, we are saved by the hand of God Almighty, by His will and for His use. We are His servants, and from the moment of salvation by faith, we embark on a journey of pre-ordained good works that are the evidence of that salvation. If there is no evidence of growth and good works, we have reason to doubt that salvation ever truly took place. “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:20), and a dead faith is not a saving faith.

“Faith alone” does not mean that some believers follow Christ in a life of discipleship, while others do not. The concept of the “carnal Christian,” as a separate category of non-spiritual believer, is completely unscriptural. The idea of the carnal Christian says that a person may receive Christ as Savior during a religious experience but never manifest evidence of a changed life. This is a false and dangerous teaching in that it excuses various ungodly lifestyles: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or thief, but he’s “saved” because he prayed a prayer as a child; he’s just a “carnal Christian.” The Bible nowhere supports the idea that a true Christian can remain carnal for an entire lifetime. Rather, God’s Word presents only two categories of people: Christians and non-Christians, believers and unbelievers, those who have bowed to the Lordship of Christ and those who have not (see John 3:36; Romans 6:17–18; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:18–24; Ephesians 2:1–5; 1 John 1:5–7; 2:3–4).

While the security of salvation is a biblical fact based upon the finished work of salvation by Christ, it is certainly true that some of those who seemed to have “made a decision” or “accepted Christ” may not genuinely be saved. As noted before, true salvation is not so much our accepting Christ as it is His accepting us. We are saved by the power of God for the purpose of God, and that purpose includes the works that give evidence of our conversion. Those who continue to walk according to the flesh are not believers (Romans 8:5–8). This is why Paul exhorts us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith” (2 Corinthians 13:5). The “carnal” Christian who examines himself will soon see that he/she is not in the faith.

James 2:19 says, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” The type of “belief” demons have can be compared to the intellectual assent made by those who “believe” in Jesus in the fact that He exists or that He was a good person. Many unbelievers say, “I believe in God” or “I believe in Jesus”; others say, “I prayed a prayer, and the preacher said I was saved.” But such prayers and such belief do not necessarily signal a change of heart. The problem is a misunderstanding of the word believe. With true salvation comes genuine repentance and real life change. Second Corinthians 5:17 says that those who are in Christ are a “new creation.” Is it possible that the new person Christ creates is one who continues to walk in the carnality of the flesh? No.

Salvation is certainly free, but, at the same time, it costs us everything. We are to die to ourselves as we change into the likeness of Christ. Where easy believism fails is its lack of recognition that a person with faith in Jesus will lead a progressively changed life. Salvation is a free gift from God to those who believe, but discipleship and obedience are the response that will no doubt occur when one truly comes to Christ in faith

Here's a hypothetical...

Mark is a serial killing rapist. He has made 70 victims. Suddenly he "finds Christ", falls on his knees, cries and asks for forgiveness. What Mark forgot during this overwhelming emotional moment, was that he was in the middle of crossing the street. So a truck runs him over and Mark dies in that instant, some 10 seconds after sincere repentance.


What happens to Mark's soul accourding to your theology?

Meanwhile, Tom (who never hurt a fly, recycles, does volunteer and charity work, what have you) who made a fortune by coming op with some innovative technology to recycle certain types of plastics, has lead a life of philantropy. He lives in a humble house on the country side, eventhough he is worth billions of dollars, most of which he spends on charity and philantropy. Tom however, is an atheist when he dies from natural causes at 74.

What happens to Tom's soul according to your theology?

 

[Sapiens]

Pretty much, barring the extremely faint chance that those few frozen individuals may be successfully thawed and resuscitated in the far future.

Yet you added it to your post as if it were.

Are you making a [fallacious] argument from consequences?

I made no claim of justice. The theology proffered by the OP simply redefined justice to be, "believe, or else...".

I am already there. Care to venture outside of your presuppositions?

Were they not appeals to consequences those objections to Christianity's Justice? Justice and morality imply consequences for one's actions. The fact that you do not like or agree with God's justice and how he condemns or restores people doesn't make it wrong.

 

[Sapiens]

Clearly that is not the case, since a moral unbeliever can't receive eternal bliss, while an immoral believer can.

There is no moral unbeliever. All are guilty. Some are just worse than others.

 

[quatona]

There is no moral unbeliever. All are guilty. Some are just worse than others.

Are there moral believers?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Here's a hypothetical...

Mark is a serial killing rapist. He has made 70 victims. Suddenly he "finds Christ", falls on his knees, cries and asks for forgiveness. What Mark forgot during this overwhelming emotional moment, was that he was in the middle of crossing the street. So a truck runs him over and Mark dies in that instant, some 10 seconds after sincere repentance.


What happens to Mark's soul accourding to your theology?

Meanwhile, Tom (who never hurt a fly, recycles, does volunteer and charity work, what have you) who made a fortune by coming op with some innovative technology to recycle certain types of plastics, has lead a life of philantropy. He lives in a humble house on the country side, eventhough he is worth billions of dollars, most of which he spends on charity and philantropy. Tom however, is an atheist when he dies from natural causes at 74.

What happens to Tom's soul according to your theology?

Reread my post about the parable of the vinyard. I already answered your question.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Right. So point 1 is acknowledged: there is no moral accountability for the raping and the killing. Instead, there is "forgiveness", and this forgiveness is ultimately based in the beliefs of the serial killing rapist.

As far as accountability for Christians, this is what scripture says.


2 Peter 2 New International Version (NIV)

False Teachers and Their Destruction

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

There is no moral unbeliever. All are guilty. Some are just worse than others.

Thank you for continuing to prove my point - actual moral and immoral behaviors are utterly irrelevant to your convoluted mess of a philosophy.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Thank you for continuing to prove my point - actual moral and immoral behaviors are utterly irrelevant to your convoluted mess of a philosophy.

I am not following. How is moral and immoral behavior irrelevant?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I don't mean to come across as preachy. But I cannot help but post one of my devotionals.

"Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
Be ever seeing, but never perceiving."
Make the heart of his people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Isaiah 6: 10-11

Yesterday I was in a bible study and the question was asked " How does our circumstances effect the way we approach the bible?" I responded to the question by asking "Have you ever found that some days you read the bible and it doesn't make sense and other times it feels the scripture is alive and God is speaking directly to you? Why is that?" I began to think about Mark 4:10-11.

Jesus was surrounded by a crowd of people who genuinely thirst for God's word...but there were also Jewish officials who sought to trap and discredit him. Jesus began to speak in parables. To the followers, the parables made sense and they began to grow in wisdom and understanding. However, the pharisees were completely confused and thought Jesus was speaking nonsense. Jesus was then asked why he was speaking in parables and he responded, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!".

What it all comes down to is what is in your heart when you read scripture. In James 1 it is said that if anyone lacks wisdom all you have to do is ask and it will be given generously. However, as we read in Hebrews 11, we learn the vital role faith plays in our relationship with God and his word. It is said in Hebrews 11:6, "and without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Faith is defined in Hebrews 11 as "confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see". As you can see, faith is critical to understanding God's word because without it our heart is calloused and the word sounds like nonsense.

"Unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 18:3. We ought to approach the bible with the faith of a child just like a child has unquestionable faith and trust in their parents. I recommend that before you read scripture, pray for God to remove the callous from your heart and remove any doubt and scepticism you have. To fill your heart with his Holy Spirit so that the fog over your eyes will be lifted and your ears will not be dull. Ask God to speak to you through his written word and guide you so that you may receive the wisdom you thirst for.

 

[DogmaHunter]

There is no moral unbeliever.

Another confirmation of the moral bankrupcy that comes along with this worldview.

Also another confirmation that, in your theology, how you behave isn't as important as what you believe.

Which is exactly the point...

 

[DogmaHunter]

Reread my post about the parable of the vinyard. I already answered your question.

Is it that hard to answer the two questions?

It seems to me that you would need no more then 10 words, max.

 

[anonymous person]

But, once more, accountability to society and other humans, is not the topic of this thread.



Can a moral atheist get to heaven?

Accountability to God is not the topic of the thread either. The topic of the thread is the moral argument for the existence of God.

Since you seem to care about being on topic, you will have to ask your question elsewhere.

 

[anonymous person]

Another confirmation of the moral bankrupcy that comes along with this worldview.

Also another confirmation that, in your theology, how you behave isn't as important as what you believe.

Which is exactly the point...

I don't know if you are aware or not, but we know you think our worldview is morally bankrupt.

 

[anonymous person]

Is it that hard to answer the two questions?

It seems to me that you would need no more then 10 words, max.

I thought you were concerned about being on topic?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Accountability to God is not the topic of the thread either. The topic of the thread is the moral argument for the existence of God.

Since you seem to care about being on topic, you will have to ask your question elsewhere.

I think the topic has been thoroughly explained and proven. Now we are simply playing the game of stump the chump so atheists can have a sense of accomplishment.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I am not following. How is moral and immoral behavior irrelevant?

Because that's exactly what 'there is no moral unbeliever' entails. It doesn't matter if I spend an entire life in service to the wellbeing of humanity, or spend that same time as a serial rapist torture-murderer. The only relevant factor is what I believe at the moment of death.

 

[Moral Orel]

I think the topic has been thoroughly explained and proven.

I disagree, I'm still waiting for the answer to which quality, or combination of God's qualities, make him the objective judge of morality...

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Because that's exactly what 'there is no moral unbeliever' entails. It doesn't matter if I spend an entire life in service to the wellbeing of humanity, or spend that same time as a serial rapist torture-murderer. The only relevant factor is what I believe at the moment of death.

Well... I guess it is time for me to answer question 2. Can an good atheist be saved? In response to this question you have to ask, moral under who's standard? God's objective moral standard or the subjective standard that you gave yourself?

I brought up Romans 3 for a reason. The key take away is "those who live under the law will be judged under the law and those who live apart from the law will be judged apart from the law". I will then ask, "How did the saints of the old testament achieve salvation? (Moses, Aaron, Daniel, David, Samuel, ect...) They followed the law. When they broke the law, they had to perform a "sin offering" as atonement. Being that Jesus is the "way the truth and the life and no man can get to the Father except through Jesus", OT saints were still saved through Jesus because they followed the law to clear the path for the Massiah.

But what about those saints who were saved before the law? (Able, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Enoch, Noah, ect...) Being that the Law was not yet revealed, Romans 3 and many other examples in scripture say that those individuals were not held accountable for the law.

It is written in Romans 2:15 "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them." But what law is Paul talking about? I believe it is not the +620 laws in the old testament but rather the 2 greatest commandments that Jesus gave.

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So I am inclined to believe that if God is omniscient and Just, an unbeliever who, without any fault of their own, was never given the opportunity to know Jesus that person would be punished for it. Rather, God "knew you before he created you" and "he can count the hairs on your head" so I have to believe that at the moment of death God would know the nature of your heart and know that if given an opportunity to choose, He would know what decision you would make. That is how you would be judged.

Furthermore, because God is just and omniscient, I have to believe that after God gives you His final judgement there will be no call for appeals. There will be no mistrial. Because God would explain his judgement to you perfectly in such a way that is unarguable. You would have been shown all the times God showed you the truth and yet you refused....So that before you are thrown into the lake of fire....your final thoughts would be, "God is just and I absolutely deserve this judgement and there is nobody to blame but myself."

So yes, I believe that an atheist who lived a moral life (based on God's standard of morality ) who was never given the opportunity to know the truth, can be saved. However, if that atheist were given that opportunity and rejected it, they would go to hell. It may seem unfair but you have to remember that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God " so everyone deserves to go to hell. If everyone deserves to go to hell how is it unjust that anyone goes to hell?