The Moral Argument (revamped)

[createdtoworship]

II'm not saying that smarter people always have more love (though I don't know of studies that have investigated this). But intelligence is obviously an important factor. If you don't have the intelligence to think of such concepts as "all humans are family" you're obviously not capable of loving everybody the same.

You're making a faulty assumption. I know lots of really smart people who aren't scientists. But that doesn't mean that being a scientist doesn't depend on being smart.

Actually, apparently we have. Like you said, an animal may very well sacrifice itself for the sake of its offspring. We see the same instinctive behaviour in humans, so in all likelihood it's the same thing, only the scope is different.

You are equivocating parental love with sacrificial love. In Greek they are actually different words I believe a parent love is starge, while a sacrificial love is agape. I said numerous times that a parents love can be attributed solely to instinct. For the survival of the pack. Sacrificial love is 180 degrees removed from a selfish love that says my family will survive while others do not. A sacrificial love is loving someone else other than family for the purpose of bettering them even when it costs me greatly. This can be done with anyone not in emmediate relation to you. You made the observation that we are all family. But only by faith do you believe this. How do you know your related to everybody else? Evolution, common ancestors? Well it takes faith to believe that. I believe by faith we are all decended from Noah and family. So we both accept ideas by faith. And that is the point. But they are other emmediate family. You don't typically pay for college of someoNE you don't know, or buy their first car. But you will with children who are in emmediate family. This is typically how things work, not in all cases. If you do buy someone you don't know a car, that is not family love that is sacrificial love. Even though you are treating them like family it still qualifies as a sacrificial love. Again in Greek there is not one word love for all these things.

 

[createdtoworship]

And yet people keep responding to someone who’s never going to admit when they’re wrong, and moreover, who’s never going to convince any atheist that read his posts that what he’s presenting is actual evidence.

You seem irritated. Debate is not a good thing to get emotional over. Typically when I get emotional i say things rudely and get reported. So I avoid all emotion and avoid those who like to fight because a christian forums purpose is not to bicker and complain at others in gossip. The fact you did not state this to me but another user means you are guilty of gossip. I hope you are ashamed of yourself and that this shame causes a genuine repentance, and that your repentance will in turn cause your faith to reignite. Staying the destruction that is coming your way. I just read today how an army surrounded Elisha The prophet and they wanted to take the prophet by force, they surrounded the entire city in which he dwelt. His servant came in aND said "what do we do?" And Elisha said, "they that are with us are greater than they that are with them". And he prayed that the servants eyes be opened, and the entire hillside surrounding the valley where the city was, was lit up with angels in battle array. Then Elisha prayed to God to blind all of the soldiers with blindness. And he had to lead them by the hand. A long line of soldiers humbled by blindness, he led them directly to the Syrian stronghold. Then after they were in prison he prayed that they recieve their site. After that the bandits did not invade Elisha's city anymore. 2 kings 5-9.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You seem irritated. Debate is not a good thing to get emotional over. Typically when I get emotional i say things rudely and get reported. So I avoid all emotion and avoid those who like to fight because a christian forums purpose is not to bicker and complain at others in gossip. The fact you did not state this to me but another user means you are guilty of gossip. I hope you are ashamed of yourself and that this shame causes a genuine repentance, and that your repentance will in turn cause your faith to reignite. Staying the destruction that is coming your way. I just read today how an army surrounded Elisha The prophet and they wanted to take the prophet by force, they surrounded the entire city in which he dwelt. His servant came in aND said "what do we do?" And Elisha said, "they that are with us are greater than they that are with them". And he prayed that the servants eyes by opened, and the entire hillside surrounding the valley where the city was, was lit up with angels in battle array. Then Elisha prayed to God to blind all of the soldiers with blindness. And he had to lead them by the hand. A long line of soldiers humbled by blindness, he led them directly to the Syrian stronghold. After that the bandits did not invade Elisha's city anymore. 2 kings 5-9.

Thanks for proving my point...

 

[createdtoworship]

Thanks for proving my point...

I don't understand your comment. I am extremely literal so what you said honestly does not make any sense to me. If you have a question by all means ask away. I can prove God's existence to you if you desire. But most likely you won't because
The atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman.
-Francis Thomson

Notice how Elisha prayed and the servants eyes were opened. If you want I can pray for you that your eyes are opened.

 

[cvanwey]

The atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman.
-Francis Thomson

Education is for the purpose of overcoming ignorance, not reinforcing it.
-Lawrence Krauss

 

[cvanwey]

You are equivocating parental love with sacrificial love. In Greek they are actually different words I believe a parent love is starge, while a sacrificial love is agape. I said numerous times that a parents love can be attributed solely to instinct. For the survival of the pack. Sacrificial love is 180 degrees removed from a selfish love that says my family will survive while others do not. A sacrificial love is loving someone else other than family for the purpose of bettering them even when it costs me greatly. This can be done with anyone not in emmediate relation to you.

@holo Please do not get sucked into this 'argument' of his.... I provided one link to him, three times. Below will make #4. He has avoided it like the 'plague'.

Dolphins Rescuing Humans - Dolphin Facts and Information

Or how about....

Images & Videos

I suspect he felt he was (backed into a corner), and then decided to 'block' me.

But the kicker of it is, to me, this argument he is presenting, isn't even what would 'prove/disprove' the 'moral argument.'

 

[holo]

You are equivocating parental love with sacrificial love. In Greek they are actually different words I believe a parent love is starge, while a sacrificial love is agape. I said numerous times that a parents love can be attributed solely to instinct. For the survival of the pack. Sacrificial love is 180 degrees removed from a selfish love that says my family will survive while others do not. A sacrificial love is loving someone else other than family for the purpose of bettering them even when it costs me greatly. This can be done with anyone not in emmediate relation to you. You made the observation that we are all family. But only by faith do you believe this. How do you know your related to everybody else? Evolution, common ancestors? Well it takes faith to believe that. I believe by faith we are all decended from Noah and family. So we both accept ideas by faith. And that is the point. But they are other emmediate family. You don't typically pay for college of someoNE you don't know, or buy their first car. But you will with children who are in emmediate family. This is typically how things work, not in all cases. If you do buy someone you don't know a car, that is not family love that is sacrificial love. Even though you are treating them like family it still qualifies as a sacrificial love. Again in Greek there is not one word love for all these things.

Sure, you can divide love into all sorts of subcategories. When my brother loves me that's brotherly love, my sisters have sisterly love, my pet has an animal's love etc. It's really the same thing though. What I feel for my child isn't fundamentally different from what I feel for my friend. Mostly it's a matter of degree. Anyway, I don't see the point you're trying to make.

 

[createdtoworship]

Sure, you can divide love into all sorts of subcategories. When my brother loves me that's brotherly love, my sisters have sisterly love, my pet has an animal's love etc. It's really the same thing though. What I feel for my child isn't fundamentally different from what I feel for my friend. Mostly it's a matter of degree. Anyway, I don't see the point you're trying to make.

actually brother and sister love is the same greek word, same with parental love. You have to admit you love a family different than everyone else, if you had kids you would know this practically. See you buy a kid their first car, and try to pay for tuition when they get to college if you can afford it. You don't do that for your neighbor (if you are middle income), you may do it if you have a surplus of money. But typically people don't give away thousands of dollars to people they don't know, unless they are wealthy and the thousands are really nothing to them. But I have seen however that sacrificial love exists within humans more than in animals, for example most of the donations to the poor come from middle to low income people. Probably because of their struggle making things meet in their own life, they have compassion on the poor, more than a successful business man who always had things going for him, and may not have had the struggles of the low to medium income. This qualifies as sacrificial love, and this type of love is not seen in the animal kingdom. Nor is love for ones enemies.

 

[cvanwey]

actually brother and sister love is the same greek word, same with parental love. You have to admit you love a family different than everyone else, if you had kids you would know this practically. See you buy a kid their first car, and try to pay for tuition when they get to college if you can afford it. You don't do that for your neighbor (if you are middle income), you may do it if you have a surplus of money. But typically people don't give away thousands of dollars to people they don't know, unless they are wealthy and the thousands are really nothing to them. But I have seen however that sacrificial love exists within humans more than in animals, for example most of the donations to the poor come from middle to low income people. Probably because of their struggle making things meet in their own life, they have compassion on the poor, more than a successful business man who always had things going for him, and may not have had the struggles of the low to medium income. This qualifies as sacrificial love, and this type of love is not seen in the animal kingdom. Nor is love for ones enemies.

@gradyll

This entire attempt in defense for your 'moral argument' has already been debunked.

Dolphins Rescuing Humans - Dolphin Facts and Information

Dolphins come to surfer’s rescue in shark attack | Science Buzz

Dolphins save swimmers from shark attack

Dolphins Save Surfer From Shark Attack

Please either retract your argument entirely, or, address the dolphins. Your choice.

 

[holo]

actually brother and sister love is the same greek word, same with parental love. You have to admit you love a family different than everyone else

Of course. But I wouldn't say my love for my children is a fundamentally different thing than my love for my friends.

But I have seen however that sacrificial love exists within humans more than in animals, for example most of the donations to the poor come from middle to low income people. Probably because of their struggle making things meet in their own life, they have compassion on the poor, more than a successful business man who always had things going for him, and may not have had the struggles of the low to medium income. This qualifies as sacrificial love, and this type of love is not seen in the animal kingdom. Nor is love for ones enemies.

True, and exactly what we'd expect given the differences in our mental abilities. For one thing, mentalization, empathy and metacognition seem to be very rare in nature, and more prevalent in more mentally evolved animals. As in, there are probably degrees of it in dogs and apes, but probably not in crocodiles and flies.

But again, I don't see how any of that indicates that the theory of evolution must be false.

 

[createdtoworship]

Of course. But I wouldn't say my love for my children is a fundamentally different thing than my love for my friends.

But the thing is this, we love people differently than animals love. We have used and do use sacrificial love toward others that are not family, and there is no evidence of animals doing that. So your equivocation of loves really is meaningless.

True, and exactly what we'd expect given the differences in our mental abilities. For one thing, mentalization, empathy and metacognition seem to be very rare in nature, and more prevalent in more mentally evolved animals. As in, there are probably degrees of it in dogs and apes, but probably not in crocodiles and flies.

But again, I don't see how any of that indicates that the theory of evolution must be false.

you are using large words to hide your lack of evidence. Basically you described an organism who is further evolved, and described the brain as where they are further evolved. So again, let me repeat.....having higher IQ does not make someone more or less moral. Unless you can provide some peer reviews of this. And since you haven't yet, I presume this concludes our discussion.

 

[holo]

But the thing is this, we love people differently than animals love.

Of course. We do most things differently than animals.

We have used and do use sacrificial love toward others that are not family, and there is no evidence of animals doing that.

Of course we don't see animals doing that, just like we don't see animals doing philosophy. Most animals can't use tools. As far as I can remember right now, only a few primates and birds can. Even fewer can make tools. Humans can make tools to make other tools. Same thing. Fancier brain, fancier behaviour.

So your equivocation of loves really is meaningless.

What about other abilities we have that animals don't, or which are more sophisticated in humans than in animals? Does the fact that there's a difference mean it's not fundamentally the same functions at work?

you are using large words to hide your lack of evidence. Basically you described an organism who is further evolved, and described the brain as where they are further evolved. So again, let me repeat.....having higher IQ does not make someone more or less moral.

I haven't said higher IQ makes someone more moral, but that things like consciousness, empathy, love, science etc etc needs a high functioning brain. Again, just because not all smart people are scientists, doesn't mean you don't have to be pretty smart to be one.

 

[holo]

@gradyll I wonder what you think it would take for, say, a duck to show sacrificial love. Would it be possible with (literally) a bird brain?

 

[createdtoworship]

I haven't said higher IQ makes someone more moral, but that things like consciousness, empathy, love, science etc etc needs a high functioning brain. Again, just because not all smart people are scientists, doesn't mean you don't have to be pretty smart to be one.

do you have evidence that someone with higher IQ has more empathy? You don't, so we are done here.

thanks for the debate.

(higher functioning brain equates to higher IQ so it is the same, or you can provide a peer review stating that higher functioning brains have more empathy, but you don't have any of the above, so we are done)

I will no longer talk about this with you, I know you don't have the evidence needed or you would have provided it in the last three or four pages. I don't think it is a good idea to keep taking up forum space going back and forth when in reality you don't have evidence of your basic premises.

 

[holo]

do you have evidence that someone with higher IQ has more empathy? You don't, so we are done here.

thanks for the debate.

(higher functioning brain equates to higher IQ so it is the same, or you can provide a peer review stating that higher functioning brains have more empathy, but you don't have any of the above, so we are done)

You're the one who keeps bringing up IQ, which is a measurement of a tiny fraction of what a brain is capable of. Again, I've never said that a high IQ equals more empathy, but that you need a highly developed brain to have empathy, imagination, ability to plan, to learn to write and so forth. Do you think that's not true? IMO it's self-evident that this is the case. It's why we'll never see a monkey understand things like Pascal's wager for example.

IQ and a high functioning brain are not synonyms.

But if you believe things like empathy don't depend on having a sophisticated brain, I still wonder if you think it would be possible, in theory, for a duck to show sacrificial love. Or to compose music, for that matter. What is it that allows people but not birds to do things like that, if not the brain?

 

[holo]

do you have evidence that someone with higher IQ has more empathy? You don't, so we are done here.

Come to think of it, as a matter of fact I do. Adults have more empathy than babies, and their IQ is higher. Humans have more empathy than monkeys, and their IQ is higher.

But I should probably point out again that this doesn't mean that a higher IQ means you are necessarily more empathetic - there are lots of smart psychopaths out there. But it should be obvious that if you're no smarter than a tape worm, you won't have the ability to be empathetic.

Or to use another analogy: all fast cars have powerful engines. But not all cars with powerful engines are fast. See what I mean?

 

[createdtoworship]

You're the one who keeps bringing up IQ, which is a measurement of a tiny fraction of what a brain is capable of. Again, I've never said that a high IQ equals more empathy, but that you need a highly developed brain to have empathy, imagination, ability to plan, to learn to write and so forth. Do you think that's not true? IMO it's self-evident that this is the case. It's why we'll never see a monkey understand things like Pascal's wager for example.

IQ and a high functioning brain are not synonyms.

But if you believe things like empathy don't depend on having a sophisticated brain, I still wonder if you think it would be possible, in theory, for a duck to show sacrificial love. Or to compose music, for that matter. What is it that allows people but not birds to do things like that, if not the brain?

so again please prove with citations how empathy (love in our situation) increases with a more sophisticated brain. Do you honestly think loving something has to do with intelligence? brain power? I think you need to prove this alleged fact before proceeding in this conversation.

 

[holo]

so again please prove with citations how empathy (love in our situation) increases with a more sophisticated brain. Do you honestly think loving something has to do with intelligence? brain power?

Absolutely, and IMO that's self-evident and obvious. Why can we never expect a tape worm to give its life for another tape worm, let alone a cat? Because it simply doesn't have the brains to do something like that. If you're not smart enough to think thoughts like "all beings have inherent worth" then you obviously won't be capable of things like self-sacrifice. Do you really need some peer reviewed study to believe that?

If you do, then I would still like an answer to my questions: if it doesn't depend on brain capacity, then what would it take for a duck to sacrifice itself for a dog?

Another question you didn't answer: does this apply only to love, or is stuff like philosophy also completely independent of brain function? Can a hamster ponder the meaning of life? Why or why not?

I think you need to prove this alleged fact before proceeding in this conversation.

As I said, I think it's obvious that this is the case. I'd be surprised if any biologist or psychologist or any other kind of educated person would think that the ability to empathise is independent of the brain.

 

[createdtoworship]

Absolutely, and IMO that's self-evident and obvious. Why can we never expect a tape worm to give its life for another tape worm, let alone a cat? Because it simply doesn't have the brains to do something like that. If you're not smart enough to think thoughts like "all beings have inherent worth" then you obviously won't be capable of things like self-sacrifice. Do you really need some peer reviewed study to believe that?

If you do, then I would still like an answer to my questions: if it doesn't depend on brain capacity, then what would it take for a duck to sacrifice itself for a dog?

Another question you didn't answer: does this apply only to love, or is stuff like philosophy also completely independent of brain function? Can a hamster ponder the meaning of life? Why or why not?

As I said, I think it's obvious that this is the case. I'd be surprised if any biologist or psychologist or any other kind of educated person would think that the ability to empathise is independent of the brain.

if something is self evidence, there would be other people who believe said thing. So I am simply asking for confirmation, and evidence. If you don't have this evidence then we can toss the comment, I don't have a problem with forgetting comments that are opinion and not fact. I mean if it was a fact you would see people that have higher brain functions than other people loving more. For example someone who is disabled, would love less and someone with a healthy brain function you would see loving more, and that is simply not evident.

 

[holo]

@gradyll I'd appreciate it if you answered my questions.

if something is self evidence, there would be other people who believe said thing.

I think there's virtually universal agreement that things like empathy, art etc requires a high functioning brain. If you think it's something else that allows humans to think in abstracts, make plans, philosophize etc, I would like to know what that something is.

I mean if it was a fact you would see people that have higher brain functions than other people loving more.

No, as I said there are plenty of really smart psychopaths. Ref. the car analogy: all fast cars have powerful engines, but not all cars with powerful engines are fast.

For example someone who is disabled, would love less

No, because there's not a linear relationship between IQ and being caring. I've met plenty of disabled people with lots of love. However, those with a very low IQ are unable to grasp philosophical concepts such as human rights. I mean, Martin Luther King jr. couldn't have done what he did if he was dumb as a rock.

and someone with a healthy brain function you would see loving more, and that is simply not evident.

Again, not what I'm saying at all. You have to be smart to be a scientist, but that doesn't mean the smarter you are, the more science you'll do.