The Moral Argument (revamped)

[createdtoworship]

Sorry sir, as stated prior, you continue to entertain.

One of your primary 'points' in this thread topic, is to state that only humans have the capacity for sacrifice outside the 'family unit'. Well, unless God has added dolphins to this list, you have been proven incorrect.

Furthermore, it's a good thing you 'blocked' me, (how ever that works)? Since you are still responding....

It would appear the only thing you are truly blocking, is responding to the many valid points of your opponents.

Again, blocking doesn't mean that I cannot see your posts, it just means that I can filter it out of other replies. I have to actually click on it to see it. But seeing you present no more facts, and just emotion for your entertainment, and not for logical debate- I can see that blocking was the right decision. I probably won't further address your posts, unless I see that they present facts of the matter. Which was my original problem with your posts. They were lengthy yes, but they did not present any facts. I guess the proper word would be "text wall." Unproven text walls of opinion. So in essence it was a lot of work with little pay back.

 

[cvanwey]

Again, blocking doesn't mean that I cannot see your posts, it just means that I can filter it out of other replies. I have to actually click on it to see it. But seeing you present no more facts, and just emotion for your entertainment, and not for logical debate- I can see that blocking was the right decision. I probably won't further address your posts, unless I see that they present facts of the matter. Which was my original problem with your posts. They were lengthy yes, but they did not present any facts. I guess the proper word would be "text wall."

What? Again (attempt number 5 at least)

Dolphins Rescuing Humans - Dolphin Facts and Information

Dolphins save swimmers from shark

Dolphins save surfer from becoming shark’s bait

 

[createdtoworship]

What? Again (attempt number 5 at least)

Dolphins Rescuing Humans - Dolphin Facts and Information

Dolphins save swimmers from shark

Dolphins save surfer from becoming shark’s bait

for the fifth time, when a dolphin sees a shark it may simply be instinct to attack it. You don't know that it was doing it for charitable reasons.

 

[cvanwey]

for the fifth time, when a dolphin sees a shark it may simply be instinct to attack it. You don't know that it was doing it for charitable reasons.

You obviously did not bother to read the links. The cited examples were not to demonstrate dolphins attack sharks, but to instead domonstrate the dolphin's nature to protect humans.

First link: "he discovered a group of sharks swimming around him. However, he watched with amazement how a pod of dolphins began to circle him, scaring away the sharks they might have attacked them by confusing his legs with some prey because of the blood. In the end, Grant Dickson was rescued safe and sound."

Second link: "It emerged yesterday that four swimmers were saved from a great white shark by a pod of altruistic dolphins, who swam in circles around them until the humans could escape."

Please explain.

 

[createdtoworship]

You obviously did not bother to read the links. The cited examples were not to demonstrate dolphins attack sharks, but to instead domonstrate the dolphin's nature to protect humans.

First link: "he discovered a group of sharks swimming around him. However, he watched with amazement how a pod of dolphins began to circle him, scaring away the sharks they might have attacked them by confusing his legs with some prey because of the blood. In the end, Grant Dickson was rescued safe and sound."

Second link: "It emerged yesterday that four swimmers were saved from a great white shark by a pod of altruistic dolphins, who swam in circles around them until the humans could escape."

Please explain.

What are the dolphins sacrificing? Dolphins are not afraid of sharks, there is no real threat to them. Dolphins are shark killers. So what was sacrificed here? And how do you know for a fact they were not simply protecting something they thought they could either eat, or later extract food from (as in birds in a vacationing spot). Birds protect people throwing food out too, I would not call it selfless love (sacrificial love).

 

[Skreeper]

What are the dolphins sacrificing? Dolphins are not afraid of sharks, there is no real threat to them. Dolphins are shark killers. So what was sacrificed here? And how do you know for a fact they were not simply protecting something they thought they could either eat, or later extract food from (as in birds in a vacationing spot). Birds protect people throwing food out too, I would not call it love.

Maybe prepare a survey and give it to dolphins and birds to get their honest opinion.

 

[cvanwey]

so again can you prove that the dolphins were doing said actions in an altruistic manner over simply following instinct? Dolphins are not afraid of sharks and if anything sharks are afraid of dolphins. For all you know, dolphins view humans as a source of food (they are very smart), not to eat but for handouts etc. You feed a dolphin one year, and they will remember that years later. So while it is typical that it is viewed as altruistic, there is not enough evidence to see altruism here.

Because, as in the third link also demonstrates:

"The dolphins, which had been cavorting in the surf all along, showed up then. They circled him, keeping the shark at bay, and enabled Endris to get back on his board and catch a wave to the shore."

The theme here being, the dolphins show up when the human is in danger. It must be a large coincidense

 

[createdtoworship]

Maybe prepare a survey and give it to dolphins and birds to get their honest opinion.

not my job, but you could try that. You seem to need it to prove they "love" selflessly (sacrificially).

 

[cvanwey]

I see you completely modified your response. Okay, I'll reply to this one too.

What are the dolphins sacrificing? Dolphins are not afraid of sharks, there is no real threat to them.

Dolphins place themselves into potential harms way, to protect someone which is not in their family unit. Within the links, there is examples of dolphins doing this against great white sharks as well. But even if they were still not afraid of any shark, the point is the dolphins are helping, or demonstrating altruistic behavior.

And since you have demonstrated you are big on dictionary definitions:

Altruistic - 'showing a disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others; unselfish'

Dolphins are shark killers. So what was sacrificed here?

Even if this were true, not relevant... The point being, the dolphin demonstrates altruistic behavior outside the family unit.

And how do you know for a fact they were not simply protecting something they thought they could either eat, or later extract food from (as in birds in a vacationing spot). Birds protect people throwing food out too, I would not call it selfless love (sacrificial love).

Because in none of the examples, did the dolphins ever attack the humans. They instead circled the humans until they reached safety.

And I'm not speaking about birds. Just the dolphins my friend. My assertion is that dolphins demonstrate altruistic behaviors.

But at the end of the day, as I agreed with @holo , I'm not sure how any of this 'proves' God anyways???

Maybe you can draw the direct connection?

 

[createdtoworship]

Because, as in the third link also demonstrates:

"The dolphins, which had been cavorting in the surf all along, showed up then. They circled him, keeping the shark at bay, and enabled Endris to get back on his board and catch a wave to the shore."

The theme here being, the dolphins show up when the human is in danger. It must be a large coincidense

like I said there is nothing out of the ordinary in the example, there is no evidence the dolphin felt a huge sigh of relief when they helped out a stranger. Again, if you are in a vacationing spot and fisherman are tossing you fish in the water to see you get closer to the boat you will remember that the rest of your dolphin life, if you see a human in trouble they are your food source so you will protect them. It is possible that they had a love for the human being, but it is more probable they were following instinct that humans typically have the goods, and that they want the goods. And the fact that you cannot provide another example of this behavior in the animal kingdom, means you will go to whatever extreme to make this example work for you. So I don't expect to convince you. But say it is a true love that the dolphin is showing toward the human. Again, there is no reason to suggest that in surfing spots, which are like vacation spots that humans and dolphins have a parent child relationship. Dolphins seem very trusting and consistent. Dolphins are playful, they have gone up to swimmers and never do they attack but they always want to play with them. Even if they are wild and have never had experience with humans before. So this shows that there may be an instinctual parent child relationship going on. A surfer typically wears a wetsuit, so they appear to be like seals to many animals in the ocean. Dolphins don't eat seals and because seals and dolphins have a common enemy, the shark....they sort of have a codependant relationship. Again like a parent and child. So even if there is love, how do you know the dolphins are not treating the human seal like a child? Again I have said before that family relationships do have sacrificial love. But on that topic again, even if it is a non instinctual love. Say the dolphin really loves the human in a non parental way. What did they sacrifice? Again dolphins are known as shark killers. I saw a site that said "ten reasons why sharks are afraid of dolphins." It would be like you protecting your child from tripping on a power chord. Yes it is a love of types, but there was no sacrifice on your part to help them out, as you are not putting yourself in danger in any way. It did not cost too much energy to bend down and put your hand on their little chest and keep them from tipping. But any dad or mom would do that. So even if it is a non parental type of love, there is no sacrifice. And I asked specifically for sacrificial love. And most likely there is a codependancy in the relationship, either by food or sharing a common enemy, or from previous experience playing with them. I tend to think again that dolphins are very smart and can plainly see we are not predators, and trust us. (we don't have gigantic teeth for one, or claws). So they have a sort of parent child relationship, "lets help the humans, they are nice to us." But like I said, there was no sacrifice to their parental love. So if the illustration is not disqualified by the fact the dolphins may look at this as relational love, it's disqualified in that there was no sacrifice made. Pets a known to love their masters, because they provide food, shelter, recreations, baths (hopefully), so I don't see this as far fetched for dolphins who can see that we enjoy being with them and like to donate our lunches to them to see them swim closer to shore, would not protect that asset to them.

 

[cvanwey]

Disclaimer: As I've stated twice now, I agreed with @holo and also asked you, 'how would 'proving' that humans are the only ones capable of altruistic love actually 'prove' Yahweh? Okay, now to responding...

like I said there is nothing out of the ordinary in the example, there is no evidence the dolphin felt a huge sigh of relief when they helped out a stranger.

Like another responder already kind of illustrated, you can't ask them You can really only assess their actions.

Again, if you are in a vacationing spot and fisherman are tossing you fish in the water to see you get closer to the boat you will remember that the rest of your dolphin life, if you see a human in trouble they are your food source so you will protect them. It is possible that they had a love for the human being, but it is more probable they were following instinct that humans typically have the goods, and that they want the goods. And the fact that you cannot provide another example of this behavior in the animal kingdom, means you will go to whatever extreme to make this example work for you. So I don't expect to convince you.

@gradyll , please understand, you told me I would not find ANY. Thus, your assertion is that I could not find any. Honestly, I only looked for one. And I found it quite quickly. And now, it is you, whom appears to desperately want to 'explain' away my one example against your prior assertion; that only humans have the ability to demonstrate true altruism.

But say it is a true love that the dolphin is showing toward the human. Again, there is no reason to suggest that in surfing spots, which are like vacation spots that humans and dolphins have a parent child relationship. Dolphins seem very trusting and consistent. Dolphins are playful, they have gone up to swimmers and never do they attack but they always want to play with them. Even if they are wild and have never had experience with humans before. So this shows that there may be an instinctual parent child relationship going on.

Oh, now you are a dolphin expert too? My purpose here was ONLY to demonstrate that other species present altruistic behaviors, and I did. If you wish to start getting into the 'reasons' for the altruism, you are again going to have a tough time

For example:

A dolphin protects the humans as their known food provider source.

A human sociopath only protects another human because of what they continue to want from them.

Remember, you have already ruled out 'mental conditions' with @holo

A surfer typically wears a wetsuit, so they appear to be like seals to many animals in the ocean. Dolphins don't eat seals and because seals and dolphins have a common enemy, the shark....they sort of have a codependant relationship. Again like a parent and child.

The goal posts keep moving Again, you asked to demonstrate one example of another species, with the ability to demonstrate altruism. I did. And now the rest is 'dolphin apologetics.'

But the answer is quite elementary. Seals don't venture to save humans. And if you should happen to find examples, great, that makes two. But the dolphins do, as the links provided demonstrate... Again, I mentioned dolphins, not seals, or birds, or other. I gave you one example. That's all I need.

So even if there is love, how do you know the dolphins are not treating the human seal like a child? Again I have said before that family relationships do have sacrificial love.

Again, you can't 'ask' them. Dolphins demonstrate altruistic behavior. Thus, I have debunked your much prior assertion. You have since moved the goal posts quite extensively.

But on that topic again, even if it is a non instinctual love. Say the dolphin really loves the human in a non parental way. What did they sacrifice?

Again, please read the definition of altruism:

'practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.'

The dolphin 'sacrifices' their time, energy, and possibly places them self into harms way, to help another. Since the dolphin is smart, this species has to know that every encounter with a shark possibly has adverse consequences - (injury or possibly death).

Again dolphins are known as shark killers. I saw a site that said "ten reasons why sharks are afraid of dolphins." It would be like you protecting your child from tripping on a power chord. Yes it is a love of types, but there was no sacrifice on your part to help them out, as you are not putting yourself in danger in any way. It did not cost too much energy to bend down and put your hand on their little chest and keep them from tipping.

I would hardly equate a dolphin against a great white shark equal to a human and a power cord Again, please address the links given. You appear to be the one desperately 'hand waving' away examples.

But any dad or mom would do that. So even if it is a non parental type of love, there is no sacrifice. And I asked specifically for sacrificial love. And most likely there is a codependancy in the relationship, either by food or sharing a common enemy, or from previous experience playing with them. I tend to think again that dolphins are very smart and can plainly see we are not predators, and trust us. (we don't have gigantic teeth for one, or claws). So they have a sort of parent child relationship, "lets help the humans, they are nice to us." But like I said, there was no sacrifice to their parental love. So if the illustration is not disqualified by the fact the dolphins may look at this as relational love, it's disqualified in that there was no sacrifice made. Pets a known to love their masters, because they provide food, shelter, recreations, baths (hopefully), so I don't see this as far fetched for dolphins who can see that we enjoy being with them and like to donate our lunches to them to see them swim closer to shore, would not protect that asset to them.

This is just more of the same, please see above. Wasn't it you, whom stated 'text walls with opinion are not relevant"?

I provided the definition of altruism. I also provided links demonstrating altruism, against great white sharks to boot. You have moved the goal posts, and interjected 'dolphin apologetics' as a rebuttal.

Please address the disclaimer in red. Thank you

 

[createdtoworship]

Like another responder already kind of illustrated, you can't ask them You can really only assess their actions.

I am not responding to your posts anymore, but I believe that the above quotation of your post self refutes using dolphins actions as a way to prove love, when you cannot "you can't ask them." Your assessment is not proof. It is only an assessment, which can be biased, prejudiced, or ignorant for that matter. At this point I feel I have refuted all of your comments, there is no possible way you could prove intent. As you cannot read their thoughts. So again, thanks for the comment. In conclusion, maybe for future success you should try to find more than just a single incident of sacrificial love in the animal kingdom. As GK chesterton rightly said, "one is not convinced of a thing when only somethings prove it, but when everything proves it." The majority of evidence is no my side, and seeing you cannot prove intent, your dolphin illustration also fails. So thanks for the debate. I am bowing out at this time mainly because of your past posts being rude and inflamatory. If you are nicer in the future with those who disagree with you, your conversations may last longer.

(also I am using my current replies to refute any further examples of dolphins in the future, until they are fully addressed and refuted, so thanks for the ammunition.)

 

[cvanwey]

The majority of evidence is no my side,

Since you appear to be into quote mining, and also since you are into quoting others, please also be aware that according to Robert H. Hopcke, "There are no accidents."

You have again chosen to 'bow out'; not because of 'rudeness', 'logic', or other..., but because I have demonstrated the following:

You stated I could not find any example of altruistic behavior outside of humans. I did. You then proceeded to move the goal posts.

You then attempted to argue that dolphins only protect humans because they see humans as a food provider. I then pointed out that human sociopaths also only protect the humans they need. And this was only after you already excluded mental 'abnormalities/stability/capacity' from the equation with @holo .

You stated that dolphins are 'shark killers', thus, no sacrifice. I then pointed out that a dolphin circling the human to protect them from a great white still poses possible injury/danger/harm/death to the dolphin; and also demonstrates the dolphin's ability to discern the danger of others outside their family unit. I doubt the dolphin relies upon this specific human's food THAT much. They are smart enough to discern other humans exist. Just like there is 'plenty of fish in the sea'.

You then responded with a text wall of pure opinion, shortly after telling me 'not to'. But in my case, I provided a definition of altruism, and links with evidence, to demonstrate my position.

But if you have to 'block' me again, do what you must

But before you do (again), please answer my prior disclaimer? How does demonstrating that humans are the only ones with altruistic behaviors "prove Yahweh"?

 

[createdtoworship]

Since you appear to be into quote mining, and also since you are into quoting others, please also be aware that according to Robert H. Hopcke, "There are no accidents."

You have again chosen to 'bow out'; not because of 'rudeness', 'logic', or other..., but because I have demonstrated the following:

You stated I could not find any example of altruistic behavior outside of humans. I did. You then proceeded to move the goal posts.

You then attempted to argue that dolphins only protect humans because they see humans as a food provider. I then pointed out that human sociopaths also only protect the humans they need. And this was only after you already excluded mental 'abnormalities/stability/capacity' from the equation with @holo .

You stated that dolphins are 'shark killers', thus, no sacrifice. I then pointed out that a dolphin circling the human to protect them from a great white still poses possible injury/danger/harm/death to the dolphin; and also demonstrates the dolphin's ability to discern the danger of others outside their family unit. I doubt the dolphin relies upon this specific human's food THAT much. They are smart enough to discern other humans exist. Just like there is 'plenty of fish in the sea'.

You then responded with a text wall of pure opinion, shortly after telling me 'not to'. But in my case, I provided a definition of altruism, and links with evidence, to demonstrate my position.

But if you have to 'block' me again, do what you must

But before you do (again), please answer my prior disclaimer? How does demonstrating that humans are the only ones with altruistic behaviors "prove Yahweh"?

sir quote mining doesn't exist. It is not in any official dictionaries other than wiki based dictionaries, which are basically publically edited.

if what you mean is a misquote, or a quote out of context, by all means prove it.

misquotes are easy to prove, but quoting out of context is nearly impossible to prove.

but anyway, I only read the first few sentences of your replies as you are on block at the moment. If you wish to get a message to me, post in in the first few sentences.

if you dont, I assume you don't want an honest refutation to it.

 

[cvanwey]

but anyway, I only read the first few sentences of your replies as you are on block at the moment. If you wish to get a message to me, post in in the first few sentences.

if you dont, I assume you don't want an honest refutation to it.

It would not matter if you did, you stop addressing all your opponents points, by stating you will 'block' them, as soon as you get pinned.... Nice try in complete redirection though....

So please 'block' this...

- You stated I would not find any examples of sacrifice/altruism outside of humans. I did.
- You then moved the goal posts.
- You stated dolphins only save humans because they are a food provider. I explained that a sociopath would only help a fellow human if they feel they needed them.
- After I provided an official definition of altruism, and links demonstrating dolphins preventing great white sharks from attacking them, you replied back with a 'text wall of opinions.'
- You stated there is no sacrifice, as dolphins are shark killers. You attested that dolphins are very smart. Thus, it would stand to reason they can assess that a great white shark may possibly produce damage or death to the dolphin, if the dolphin is not nimble enough.
- If dolphins are smart, why would the dolphin save this human, since dolphins know other humans exist? It's not like this is the only way the dolphin gets their food. Just wait for the next human.

I placed my disclaimer at the very beginning of the prior response, but you never addressed it anyways. So you have again presented your dishonesty.

Thus, since I have a 'feeling' you are actually reading the entire threads, I'll ask again...

How does demonstrating that humans are the only ones with altruistic behaviors "prove Yahweh"?

 

[createdtoworship]

It would not matter if you did, you stop addressing all your opponents points, by stating you will 'block' them, as soon as you get pinned.... Nice try in complete redirection though....

So please 'block' this...

- You stated I would not find any examples of sacrifice/altruism outside of humans. I did.
- You then moved the goal posts.
- You stated dolphins only save humans because they are a food provider. I explained that a sociopath would only help a fellow human if they feel they needed them.
- After I provided an official definition of altruism, and links demonstrating dolphins preventing great white sharks from attacking them, you replied back with a 'text wall of opinions.'
- You stated there is no sacrifice, as dolphins are shark killers. You attested that dolphins are very smart. Thus, it would stand to reason they can assess that a great white shark may possibly produce damage or death to the dolphin, if the dolphin is not nimble enough.
- If dolphins are smart, why would the dolphin save this human, since dolphins know other humans exist? It's not like this is the only way the dolphin gets their food. Just wait for the next human.

I placed my disclaimer at the very beginning of the prior response, but you never addressed it anyways. So you have again presented your dishonesty.

Thus, since I have a 'feeling' you are actually reading the entire threads, I'll ask again...

How does demonstrating that humans are the only ones with altruistic behaviors "prove Yahweh"?

sir I will post my original comment, as I already told you I saved it for future discussions with dolphins. You forget how easily the internet works. Repeating an already defeated argument does not make your arsenal of weapons look shiny or scary. Other than the dolphin issue, there are no facts in your post, so nothing needing to be adressed, as I already said if I don't see facts in the first few sentences I won't read the rest of it. I gave you fair warning.

here is the refutation of the dolphins:
like I said there is nothing out of the ordinary in the example, there is no evidence the dolphin felt a huge sigh of relief when they helped out a stranger. Again, if you are in a vacationing spot and fisherman are tossing you fish in the water to see you get closer to the boat you will remember that the rest of your dolphin life, if you see a human in trouble they are your food source so you will protect them. It is possible that they had a love for the human being, but it is more probable they were following instinct that humans typically have the goods, and that they want the goods. And the fact that you cannot provide another example of this behavior in the animal kingdom, means you will go to whatever extreme to make this example work for you. So I don't expect to convince you. But say it is a true love that the dolphin is showing toward the human. Again, there is no reason to suggest that in surfing spots, which are like vacation spots that humans and dolphins have a parent child relationship. Dolphins seem very trusting and consistent. Dolphins are playful, they have gone up to swimmers and never do they attack but they always want to play with them. Even if they are wild and have never had experience with humans before. So this shows that there may be an instinctual parent child relationship going on. A surfer typically wears a wetsuit, so they appear to be like seals to many animals in the ocean. Dolphins don't eat seals and because seals and dolphins have a common enemy, the shark....they sort of have a codependant relationship. Again like a parent and child. So even if there is love, how do you know the dolphins are not treating the human seal like a child? Again I have said before that family relationships do have sacrificial love. But on that topic again, even if it is a non instinctual love. Say the dolphin really loves the human in a non parental way. What did they sacrifice? Again dolphins are known as shark killers. I saw a site that said "ten reasons why sharks are afraid of dolphins." It would be like you protecting your child from tripping on a power chord. Yes it is a love of types, but there was no sacrifice on your part to help them out, as you are not putting yourself in danger in any way. It did not cost too much energy to bend down and put your hand on their little chest and keep them from tipping. But any dad or mom would do that. So even if it is a non parental type of love, there is no sacrifice. And I asked specifically for sacrificial love. And most likely there is a codependancy in the relationship, either by food or sharing a common enemy, or from previous experience playing with them. I tend to think again that dolphins are very smart and can plainly see we are not predators, and trust us. (we don't have gigantic teeth for one, or claws). So they have a sort of parent child relationship, "lets help the humans, they are nice to us." But like I said, there was no sacrifice to their parental love. So if the illustration is not disqualified by the fact the dolphins may look at this as relational love, it's disqualified in that there was no sacrifice made. Pets a known to love their masters, because they provide food, shelter, recreations, baths (hopefully), so I don't see this as far fetched for dolphins who can see that we enjoy being with them and like to donate our lunches to them to see them swim closer to shore, would not protect that asset to them.

 

[cvanwey]

sir I will post my original comment, as I already told you I saved it for future discussions with dolphins. You forget how easily the internet works. Repeating an already defeated argument does not make your arsenal of weapons look shiny or scary. Other than the dolphin issue, there are no facts in your post, so nothing needing to be adressed, as I already said if I don't see facts in the first few sentences I won't read the rest of it. I gave you fair warning.

here is the refutation of the dolphins:
like I said there is nothing out of the ordinary in the example, there is no evidence the dolphin felt a huge sigh of relief when they helped out a stranger. Again, if you are in a vacationing spot and fisherman are tossing you fish in the water to see you get closer to the boat you will remember that the rest of your dolphin life, if you see a human in trouble they are your food source so you will protect them. It is possible that they had a love for the human being, but it is more probable they were following instinct that humans typically have the goods, and that they want the goods. And the fact that you cannot provide another example of this behavior in the animal kingdom, means you will go to whatever extreme to make this example work for you. So I don't expect to convince you. But say it is a true love that the dolphin is showing toward the human. Again, there is no reason to suggest that in surfing spots, which are like vacation spots that humans and dolphins have a parent child relationship. Dolphins seem very trusting and consistent. Dolphins are playful, they have gone up to swimmers and never do they attack but they always want to play with them. Even if they are wild and have never had experience with humans before. So this shows that there may be an instinctual parent child relationship going on. A surfer typically wears a wetsuit, so they appear to be like seals to many animals in the ocean. Dolphins don't eat seals and because seals and dolphins have a common enemy, the shark....they sort of have a codependant relationship. Again like a parent and child. So even if there is love, how do you know the dolphins are not treating the human seal like a child? Again I have said before that family relationships do have sacrificial love. But on that topic again, even if it is a non instinctual love. Say the dolphin really loves the human in a non parental way. What did they sacrifice? Again dolphins are known as shark killers. I saw a site that said "ten reasons why sharks are afraid of dolphins." It would be like you protecting your child from tripping on a power chord. Yes it is a love of types, but there was no sacrifice on your part to help them out, as you are not putting yourself in danger in any way. It did not cost too much energy to bend down and put your hand on their little chest and keep them from tipping. But any dad or mom would do that. So even if it is a non parental type of love, there is no sacrifice. And I asked specifically for sacrificial love. And most likely there is a codependancy in the relationship, either by food or sharing a common enemy, or from previous experience playing with them. I tend to think again that dolphins are very smart and can plainly see we are not predators, and trust us. (we don't have gigantic teeth for one, or claws). So they have a sort of parent child relationship, "lets help the humans, they are nice to us." But like I said, there was no sacrifice to their parental love. So if the illustration is not disqualified by the fact the dolphins may look at this as relational love, it's disqualified in that there was no sacrifice made. Pets a known to love their masters, because they provide food, shelter, recreations, baths (hopefully), so I don't see this as far fetched for dolphins who can see that we enjoy being with them and like to donate our lunches to them to see them swim closer to shore, would not protect that asset to them.

Yet another point in dishonesty. How would you know I bullet pointed my reasons, if you did not read them? Furthermore, if you are just going to repeat post 850, then please re-read post 851

Again, a human sociopath would only help a fellow human whom they feel they need. Thus, if I were to follow you completely, even without contest on all your opinions, your argument still fails. The dolphin and the human sociopath would demonstrate the exact same traits - (only helping to protect what they get from them). Thus, your argument has already been debunked, long ago, regardless.... No need to address any of the other many points really.

So I ask, yet AGAIN, how does demonstrating that humans are the only ones with altruistic behaviors "prove Yahweh"?

 

[createdtoworship]

Disclaimer: As I've stated twice now, I agreed with @holo and also asked you, 'how would 'proving' that humans are the only ones capable of altruistic love actually 'prove' Yahweh? Okay, now to responding...

It doesn't by itself prove yahweh. That is not the point. The point is that you cannot provide a natural origin of sacrificial love. You say it evolved, but we don't see it in the animal kingdom. Dolphins helping surfers from sharks is not sacrificial as dolphins swim in groups and a sharks simply can't compete as they are typically sole hunters. So no sacrificial love there. At least not evidently. And that is all we can go on, you even agree in the next quote that you cannot read their mind. I cannot prove they don't love but I don't have to, you said they are loving others, and yet how do you prove that without reading their mind, so the next post self refutes everything you are saying. So I love it. Thanks again.

Like another responder already kind of illustrated, you can't ask them You can really only assess their actions.

adressed above. And thanks again for this debate. You are solidifying my view the more you debate. As per our agreement, I only reply to the first few sentences. Take care.


also to finish my first comment, if there is no natural explanation for sacrificial love, yet a supernatural does exist that is rational, then one must conclude that the supernatural origin of love is more correct than the natural view. And this among other things gives evidence to God's existence. It goes back to "if you seen something made, you know it had a maker." If nature cannot explain why love exists, and we see it in the world around us, and the fact that christians teach about loving enemies, having humility and loving in meekness and anonymity. Things I don't see taught in any other religion, this goes to show that christianity has a more complete view of love than other religions, so thus their God would be the one who created the most complete form of love in the universe.

thanks again. I like our shorter talks. It makes my life a lot easier.

 

[createdtoworship]

It doesn't by itself prove yahweh. That is not the point. The point is that you cannot provide a natural origin of sacrificial love. You say it evolved, but we don't see it in the animal kingdom. Dolphins helping surfers from sharks is not sacrificial as dolphins swim in groups and a sharks simply can't compete as they are typically sole hunters. So no sacrificial love there. At least not evidently. And that is all we can go on, you even agree in the next quote that you cannot read their mind. I cannot prove they don't love but I don't have to, you said they are loving others, and yet how do you prove that without reading their mind, so the next post self refutes everything you are saying. So I love it. Thanks again.





adressed above. And thanks again for this debate. You are solidifying my view the more you debate. As per our agreement, I only reply to the first few sentences. Take care.


also to finish my first comment, if there is no natural explanation for sacrificial love, yet a supernatural does exist that is rational, then one must conclude that the supernatural origin of love is more correct than the natural view. And this among other things gives evidence to God's existence. It goes back to "if you seen something made, you know it had a maker." If nature cannot explain why love exists, and we see it in the world around us, and the fact that christians teach about loving enemies, having humility and loving in meekness and anonymity. Things I don't see taught in any other religion, this goes to show that christianity has a more complete view of love than other religions, so thus their God would be the one who created the most complete form of love in the universe.

thanks again. I like our shorter talks. It makes my life a lot easier.

check out this link on the hebrew word "yom"

Six Literal Days

I have studied it extensively, "evening and morning was the first day" follows the hebrew 24 hour period. see their days started at dusk and ended at the same time, that is why they said "evening and morning". Our days starts in the morning when we wake up. I know technically they start at midnight, but not the work day. The hebrew day started first with night, then day. While our work day is reversed.

 

[cvanwey]

It doesn't by itself prove yahweh. That is not the point. The point is that you cannot provide a natural origin of sacrificial love. You say it evolved, but we don't see it in the animal kingdom. Dolphins helping surfers from sharks is not sacrificial as dolphins swim in groups and a sharks simply can't compete as they are typically sole hunters. So no sacrificial love there. At least not evidently. And that is all we can go on, you even agree in the next quote that you cannot read their mind. I cannot prove they don't love but I don't have to, you said they are loving others, and yet how do you prove that without reading their mind, so the next post self refutes everything you are saying. So I love it. Thanks again.

I have to ask... Are you 'joshing' everyone? I know I'm not the only one whom is wondering... I sure do get a kick out of your responses either way; whether they are genuine, or you are merely trolling.... Still not sure...?

Okay, again, read post 851 FOR STARTERS. (i.e.) A sociopath demonstrates the same traits as a dolphin. So your argument fails. By even excluding all other points, then you would still have to conclude both dolphins and sociopaths only help others for personal gain. Please explain...

At the end of the day, your entire argument appears to be that only humans possess empathy. And when did I say empathy evolved?

I only reply to the first few sentences. Take care

Incorrect. You are anxiously awaiting my every post, reading it all, and then only addressing what you 'think' you can address The evidence is noted in your prior responses.

also to finish my first comment, if there is no natural explanation for sacrificial love, yet a supernatural does exist that is rational, then one must conclude that the supernatural origin of love is more correct than the natural view. And this among other things gives evidence to God's existence. It goes back to "if you seen something made, you know it had a maker." If nature cannot explain why love exists, and we see it in the world around us, and the fact that christians teach about loving enemies, having humility and loving in meekness and anonymity. Things I don't see taught in any other religion, this goes to show that christianity has a more complete view of love than other religions, so thus their God would be the one who created the most complete form of love in the universe.

thanks again. I like our shorter talks. It makes my life a lot easier.

Or here's a more befitting conclusion. You don't really seem to grasp the complex gravity of this subject matter, and 'God' is the easier answer for you.