The MJAA as a standard of Messianic Judaism

[Gxg (G²)]

Yahshua said he was sent by the Father. Mainstream Messianic Judaism is mostly Trinitarian. I do not think anyone knows what percentage of Messianics are or are not Trinitarians.

Seeing how many are open to Non-Trinitarian views (abeit ones that still acknowledge Christ as God/Divine while also seeing him in relationship with the Father), it is something that needs to be investigated more.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

When I first starting going to the Messianic synagogue I became close with a believer who wasn't Jewish. Still close with him. We didn't know anything outside scopes of our Messianic synagogue. Me being Jewish as well as others and him not being Jewish as well as others didn't matter. I can honestly say I never saw and still don't see or feel distinctions being made. I asked him one day why he wants to worship and fellowship in a Messianic synagogue/community. He said this is as close to the faith and expression he feels is right and has a heart for Israel and understood 'Israel-ology'. Coming from a Catholic background he realized it wasn't right and then getting into Christianity he felt it was right, then involved with Messianic Judaism felt more right. Truly Jew and Gentile worshipping together praising and commemorating God's salvation in Yeshua.

Then something happened. My friend started going on the internet and joining forums. He would call me and say 'I discovered something about the 2 sticks' Then when we were together he would say that I did found something on one law. Then I sort of followed him in this endeavors and we would exchange what we found.

He started to get somewhat legalistic and it was bothering him. I also started to get somewhat legalistic and we both were involved with an online parsha type study which was pretty decent. We then started condoning anything not Messianic not based on our synagogue/ community but we we found online. Tons of stuff online in regards to theologies and the like. We started to lose our focus which of course is Yeshua. I even in this stage posted on forums about 'one law for all and if you're not then you'll be least in the Kingdom'. [bless and do not curse]We both got away from 'grace oriented' Messianic Judaism, if that's a correct phrase?

My friend wanted to know if he should be keeping kosher etc as a non Jew, he was confused.

Sad to hear of what happened to your friend, although that has often happened with many. Happened to many of my friends/family as well..and thus, it's one of the reasons I've been very glad to have my Jewish friends/family that I've lived life with--Jew and Gentile together in Messiah. And keeping the focus on Yeshua and how it was His blood that made us pure---and even before anyone knew anything of the Hebraic or Jewish roots of the faith, it was not as if the Lord was not working through others and using them to spread the Gospel. Whenever the focus comes off of Christ, things will always get messy..

 

[janwoG]

To ChavaK

To ChavaK

ot sure I'm understanding you....are you saying that because a Messianic gentile has a circumcision, this makes him a Jew?

Of course it is not circumcision alone makes a Jew, the Moel proceeds the ceremony with blessings in Jewish Orthodoxy. However it seems that the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel does not even recognize a conversion in a Reform synagogue. It will be even more so with Messianic. But what is important for Messianic is who will be recognized as Messianic Jew.
For the Rambam, the observance of the Shabbat and absence of idolatry as equivalent to all other mitzvoth is the minimum for a Jew to be elected in the world to come. If a Jew does not observe the Shabbat, he is an idolater.(1) Hence to be Jewish should imply a minimum observance of Torah.
(1) A Maimonides Reader by Isadore Twersky, Library of Jewish Studies, 1972, p 107


Of course it is not circumcision alone makes a Jew, the Moel proceeds the ceremony with blessings in Jewish Orthodoxy. However it seems that the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel does not even recognize a conversion in a Reform synagogue. It will be even more so with Messianic. But what is important for Messianic is who will be recognized as Messianic Jew.
For the Rambam, the observance of the Shabbat and absence of idolatry as equivalent to all other mitzvoth is the minimum for a Jew to be elected in the world to come. If a Jew does not observe the Shabbat, he is an idolater.(1) Hence to be Jewish should imply a minimum observance of Torah.
(1) A Maimonides Reader by Isadore Twersky, Library of Jewish Studies, 1972, p 107

 

[Avodat]

Wow, posts in stereo!

 

[Qnts2]

Seeing how many are open to Non-Trinitarian views (abeit ones that still acknowledge Christ as God/Divine while also seeing him in relationship with the Father), it is something that needs to be investigated more.

I know of Messianic Jewish people who say they are not Trinitarian. They do believe Yeshua is God. (Divine is a tricky word as it means heavenely or from heaven, and includes angels, so a person who uses the term Jesus is Divine might not believe that Jesus is Deity).

In my view, the issue is the phrasing of the Nicean creed. That there are three 'separate persons'. Jewish people grow up learning that God is One, and with that emphasis, 'three separate persons' appears to be at odds with One God. Even though the person believes there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they are not viewed as three separate persons. I call myself a Trinitarian but rephrase the creed. I believe God is One, Who is eternally three.

 

[Qnts2]

As we see the UMJC and MJAA have different views about Gentile 'integration'. UMJC is outspoken about Torah obervance. Where MJAA is silent not because they want to keep it under the bar but because it's not the focus to begin with. Not that one is better than the other.

The UMJC has taken the view that Messianic Jews are to be Torah Observant, to be more a part of the Jewish community. Since the UMJC fights harder for Messianic Judaism to be considered a branch of Judaism recognized by Rabbinic Judaism and therefore more acceptable for Jewish people to be a part of Messianic Judaism, to them, being Torah Observant make Messianic Judaism more acceptable as a branch of Judaism. I personally disagree with this through process. I do not believe Messianic Jews practicing Orthodox Judaism is going to make us more acceptable because it is not the practice of the law which makes us unacceptable to Rabbinic Judaism. It is our belief that Yeshua is the Messiah.

While UMJC strongly encourages a more Orthodox practice, I do not see it as a requirement as there are enough congregations in the UMJC which do not engage in full Orthodox practice for the Messianic Jews. I know of UMJC synagogues which would NOT say Messianic Gentiles must keep the Mosaic law. However, for those Messianic Jew who do, the Messianic Gentiles are asked to bring Kosher food to any gatherings with food.

 

[Qnts2]

I am not intentionally ignoring anyones posts.

A lot of people are responding to me, and truthfully, there is no way I am able to respond to them all.

I do tend to go from the last post in the forum backwords.

If I do not respond to your post, I appologize. I either missed it, or though it was a repeat of something I already responded to, or simply ran out of time. I respond to posts during breaks at work.

Thanks Tal, I did see that. Hope you had a restful day!

My post was made on: 9th March 2012, 02:08 PM

She responded that she could not post any more to Sam's post at: 9th March 2012, 04:31 PM
(Sam's post was made at 9th March 2012, 03:59 PM )

In between that time
She answered nine other posts after mine to:

to anisavta from her..... 01:11 PM post
to talmidim from his...... 02:38 PM post
to Avodat from his........ 02:55 PM post
to mishkan from his....... 02:58 PM post
to talmidim from his....... 03:13 PM post
to anisavta from her ..... 03:37 PM post (twice to this one)
to mishkan from his....... 04:07 PM post
to anisavta from her......., 04:15 PM post


At 04:31 PM she posted she could no longer post because of needing to get ready for Shabbat. My post was made at 2:08pm, as you can see those made before and after my post were answered, but not mine. I don't think I'm being paranoid as this has happened on other threads. Perhaps I am being ignored as I don't fall into the camp of Torah for Jews only and believe it should be for those gentiles who feel called to obey.


The main things is in my post, found here the points that she kept reiterating, that this forum is supposed to be for Messianic Jews and that they should be following the MJAA statement as a SOF was debunked in my post, yet she kept on repeating it.

There was nothing in my post that even intimated that I wasn't relaxed so please don't patronize me, she did answer at least one of yours as can be seen above.

 

[Qnts2]

I know very well what an anti-missionary is. I studied with them, challenged them, and have discussed them with Orthodox rabbis. After 30 years in this community, how could anyone not know what an anti-missionary is??? I find the question insulting, to say the least.


Not seein' it, sister.


Look, if you want to call Hebrew-Christians "Messianic Jews", feel free. But it takes a lot of chutzpah to think we're all going to change our terminology based on your say-so.


Diversity, I can live with. What you're doing is something else.


No, they are part of that "diversity" you profess you want.


Granted, I haven't read all the messages you claim to have received. I've heard nothing about anybody having problems with ANY of the views expressed on this forum. But, speaking strictly for myself, that's a ridiculous notion.


Would you care to show me the portion of the MJAA or UMJC SoFs that purportedly contradict the full inclusion and integration of Gentiles into a Messianic Jewish community, with both rights and responsibilities appropriate to ALL members of the Body?

Here's what I find on the current MJAA website, under their definition of "Messianic Judaism":


I don't know... that sure doesn't sound like it is trying to set Gentiles outside the camp of the Torah.

The only thing I find disappointing about this document is how little it asks of even Jews, saying that all they do is observe the Levitical Holy Days. REALLY??? That's all the MJAA does that is distinctive from any other Christian organization? I'd like to think there is more.

You claim to know what an anti-missionary is, and then fail to state what they are, so I will.

And anti-missionary is a person who works to keep Jewish people from believing in Yeshua, and if a Jewish person does believe in Yeshua, they argue to cause that Jewish person to reject Jesus.

If you can find any post where I recommend that Jewish people should not believe in Jesus, or have argued with a Jewish person who does believe in Yeshua, to renounce that belief and return to Rabbinical Judaism, then you can rightfully call me an anti-missionary. But since I believe in sharing the good news of the Messiah with all people, hoping for them to come to belief in Jesus, I am not an antimissionary.

The minimum for a Messianic Jew is the identification with the Jewish community, and celebration/practice of the High Holy Days. You might find this sad, but that simply means you want to tell a lot of Messianic Jews, you don't consider them Messianic Jews. You are at odds with most Messianic Jews as Messianic Judaism is not about the Mosaic law. We are not defined by our adherence to the Mosaic law. Not even the UMJC defines themselves by their adherence to the Mosaic law.

Since the MJAA does not view 'Torah Obedience' as a requirement for Messianic Jews, they certainly don't view Torah Obedience as a requirement for Messianic Gentiles. If you read their membership application, it shows how and why Gentiles are not full members. It for for the purpose of sharing the gospel with the Jewish community.

 

[mishkan]

You claim to know what an anti-missionary is, and then fail to state what they are, so I will.

And anti-missionary is a person who works to keep Jewish people from believing in Yeshua, and if a Jewish person does believe in Yeshua, they argue to cause that Jewish person to reject Jesus.

If you can find any post where I recommend that Jewish people should not believe in Jesus, or have argued with a Jewish person who does believe in Yeshua, to renounce that belief and return to Rabbinical Judaism, then you can rightfully call me an anti-missionary. But since I believe in sharing the good news of the Messiah with all people, hoping for them to come to belief in Jesus, I am not an antimissionary.

I never said you were. You are fixating on what, with me, is a non-issue.

Since the MJAA does not view 'Torah Obedience' as a requirement for Messianic Jews, they certainly don't view Torah Obedience as a requirement for Messianic Gentiles. If you read their membership application, it shows how and why Gentiles are not full members. It for for the purpose of sharing the gospel with the Jewish community.

Similarly, you seem to be laboring under the misconception that the generation-old foundational documents for a few organizations are fixed in stone, and binding on all as ultimate definitions of Truth. I have never felt that way about any particular organization. I am not a separatist, as some in the Hebrew Roots world. But, within the context of my chosen community of MJ, my voice is just as valid as anyone else's in the discussion. If you disagree, that's fine.

It is clear to me, based on all the material that has been presented in the past several days, that the religious exchange between Christianity and Judaism over the past 150 years has been evolving.

• We started with a purely Christian, "Let's turn Jews into Christians".
• This developed into, "Let's create Christian missions where Jews can have some of their own culture, but still believe and live like Christians".
• We have finally reached the level in the progression where the work is becoming more indiginous, allowing Messianic congregations to set their own theology and rules.

Unfortunately, I see a number of opportunities being missed:

• Many are failing to re-examine the Biblical writings and theology in light of early Jewish sources. They remain ensconced in the womb of Constantinian Christianity, with all the baggage that has developed over the past 1700 years.
• The ability to create communities that are truly Jewish in culture and theology.
• Prejudice:
  To the point of our current discussions, the opportunity missed by some to truly tear down the separating wall between Jews and Gentiles, and bring Gentile believers into the fold of Israel, and Israel's God. Every Gentile believer who desires to be part of the Messianic community should be welcomed with open arms, as an enhancement to the Jewish community. At the very least, they are "righteous Gentiles". If they desire to be more tightly integrated, then there is no need to resist them. Defining them as being fundamentally outside the framework of Torah is resisting, and based on traditional religious prejudices, both Jewish and Gentile.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I know of Messianic Jewish people who say they are not Trinitarian. They do believe Yeshua is God. (Divine is a tricky word as it means heavenely or from heaven, and includes angels, so a person who uses the term Jesus is Divine might not believe that Jesus is Deity).

In my view, the issue is the phrasing of the Nicean creed. That there are three 'separate persons'. Jewish people grow up learning that God is One, and with that emphasis, 'three separate persons' appears to be at odds with One God. Even though the person believes there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they are not viewed as three separate persons. I call myself a Trinitarian but rephrase the creed. I believe God is One, Who is eternally three.

Can definately understand what it is that you noted on how the term "Divine" can be misunderstood...and as it concerns the Nicean Creed and the terminology of
"three persons", that brings up the aspect of how language can make a difference when it comes to understanding the Plurality of the Lord.

I'd say that it's really a matter of how the Lord manifests Himself, as it's not beyond Him to be able to manifest himself in three modes since He spans the entire realm of eternity.

 

[Lulav]

The minimum for a Messianic Jew is the identification with the Jewish community, and celebration/practice of the High Holy Days. You might find this sad, but that simply means you want to tell a lot of Messianic Jews, you don't consider them Messianic Jews. You are at odds with most Messianic Jews as Messianic Judaism is not about the Mosaic law. We are not defined by our adherence to the Mosaic law. Not even the UMJC defines themselves by their adherence to the Mosaic law.

Since the MJAA does not view 'Torah Obedience' as a requirement for Messianic Jews, they certainly don't view Torah Obedience as a requirement for Messianic Gentiles. If you read their membership application, it shows how and why Gentiles are not full members. It for for the purpose of sharing the gospel with the Jewish community.

You state this like it is a fact. At the annual Messiah conference Torah observation was always a topic. The meals that you were required to eat at the college were to be at the very least, 'Biblically Kosher' even though that is a loose term. There was a big stink one year because they served pepperoni pizza.

You say the minimum for a Jew that believes in Jesus to be called a Messianic Jew is that they 'celebrate/practice of the High Holy Days'. Is that not in the Torah? Are these not celebrated according to Torah or is serving Ham for Passover ok?

One year I remember that there was a big discussion over the Marketplace being open on Shabbat. There was enough from both sides to have them decide to let the sellers decide if they wanted to sell or not. An easy way out if you ask me and the reason being that 'some' made their living this way'. There were others that just covered their tables and place a sign on top saying they were closed for Shabbat and would reopen afterwards for the final night.

MJAA as well as other organizations are made up of all kinds of Jews. From those who are very frum (who would get an apartment to prepare their own foods while at conference) to those who you couldn't tell apart from Gentile Christians. So the beliefs are there, its just like it was in the beginning, nothing much has changed, it's all about who will win out.

But those who want to be obedient and follow G-ds laws have always been in the minority among Israel. Our history book shows us that.

 

[Henaynei]

You state this like it is a fact. At the annual Messiah conference Torah observation was always a topic. The meals that you were required to eat at the college were to be at the very least, 'Biblically Kosher' even though that is a loose term. There was a big stink one year because they served pepperoni pizza.

You say the minimum for a Jew that believes in Jesus to be called a Messianic Jew is that they 'celebrate/practice of the High Holy Days'. Is that not in the Torah? Are these not celebrated according to Torah or is serving Ham for Passover ok?

One year I remember that there was a big discussion over the Marketplace being open on Shabbat. There was enough from both sides to have them decide to let the sellers decide if they wanted to sell or not. An easy way out if you ask me and the reason being that 'some' made their living this way'. There were others that just covered their tables and place a sign on top saying they were closed for Shabbat and would reopen afterwards for the final night.

MJAA as well as other organizations are made up of all kinds of Jews. From those who are very frum (who would get an apartment to prepare their own foods while at conference) to those who you couldn't tell apart from Gentile Christians. So the beliefs are there, its just like it was in the beginning, nothing much has changed, it's all about who will win out.

But those who want to be obedient and follow G-ds laws have always been in the minority among Israel. Our history book shows us that.

I can vouch for the historicity of your statements and the accuracy of your statement "So the beliefs are there, its just like it was in the beginning, nothing much has changed, it's all about who will win out." This is a concern I have heard voiced by Jewish Messianics many many times in many settings and congregations over many years.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[anisavta]

You state this like it is a fact. At the annual Messiah conference Torah observation was always a topic. The meals that you were required to eat at the college were to be at the very least, 'Biblically Kosher' even though that is a loose term. There was a big stink one year because they served pepperoni pizza.

I was just at a MJAA conference. The luncheon was kosher,many vendors were closed on shabbat,and several workshops dealt with Torah observance. There was nothing anti Torah in any of the teachings.

 

[mishkan]

I was just at a MJAA conference. The luncheon was kosher,many vendors were closed on shabbat,and several workshops dealt with Torah observance. There was nothing anti Torah in any of the teachings.

Agreed. They have been working out the kinks for about 40 years, now. One would like to think there should be some consensus by now.

I'd be a little relictant to say there is "nothing" anti-Torah in the teachings, though. While I will confess they have come a long way, there are still a number of teachings popular in the MJAA that I would regard as fundamentally anti-Torah, although the speaker might not realize it.

Even the fact that the MJAA lists a creedal "Statement of Faith" on their website is a vestige of church missions culture within the organization. Synagogues don't do that, in general.

 

[Avodat]

Agreed. They have been working out the kinks for about 40 years, now. One would like to think there should be some consensus by now.

I'd be a little relictant to say there is "nothing" anti-Torah in the teachings, though. While I will confess they have come a long way, there are still a number of teachings popular in the MJAA that I would regard as fundamentally anti-Torah, although the speaker might not realize it.

Even the fact that the MJAA lists a creedal "Statement of Faith" on their website is a vestige of church missions culture within the organization. Synagogues don't do that, in general.

I wish they would at least get the names of the books correct! All the way through, every mention of the last book is shown a Revelations (plural)! You'd think that a group that large would at least get the names of sections of The Book correct!

 

[Qnts2]

You state this like it is a fact. At the annual Messiah conference Torah observation was always a topic. The meals that you were required to eat at the college were to be at the very least, 'Biblically Kosher' even though that is a loose term. There was a big stink one year because they served pepperoni pizza.

You say the minimum for a Jew that believes in Jesus to be called a Messianic Jew is that they 'celebrate/practice of the High Holy Days'. Is that not in the Torah? Are these not celebrated according to Torah or is serving Ham for Passover ok?

One year I remember that there was a big discussion over the Marketplace being open on Shabbat. There was enough from both sides to have them decide to let the sellers decide if they wanted to sell or not. An easy way out if you ask me and the reason being that 'some' made their living this way'. There were others that just covered their tables and place a sign on top saying they were closed for Shabbat and would reopen afterwards for the final night.

MJAA as well as other organizations are made up of all kinds of Jews. From those who are very frum (who would get an apartment to prepare their own foods while at conference) to those who you couldn't tell apart from Gentile Christians. So the beliefs are there, its just like it was in the beginning, nothing much has changed, it's all about who will win out.

But those who want to be obedient and follow G-ds laws have always been in the minority among Israel. Our history book shows us that.

You said '
MJAA as well as other organizations are made up of all kinds of Jews. From those who are very frum (who would get an apartment to prepare their own foods while at conference) to those who you couldn't tell apart from Gentile Christians. So the beliefs are there, its just like it was in the beginning, nothing much has changed, it's all about who will win out. '

You are actually making my point. Messianic Judaism has Jewish believers who are all levels of practice. That is why Messianic Judaism starts with those who celebrate the High Holy Days and identify with the Jewish community. It is all levels of practice based on calling. One thing Messianic Judaism opposes is One Law.

If you can not accept Messianic Jews who are against One Law, or Messianic Jews who are not Frum, then the people on this forum are actually opposed to Messianic Jews and Messianic Judaism, as we have no issue with all levels of practice. Starting with those who celebrate the High Holy Days.

I personally don't like the practice of Messianic Jews or Messianic Gentiles who wear a yarmulke and shop on Shabbat. If you want to shop on Shabbat, I do not believe the person should wear a yarmulke. I also do not believe Gentiles should be wearing a yarmulke. First of all, the yarmulke would be desceptive as Jewish people view that as traditional Jewish clothing. Secondly, it is a tradition which is not a biblical requirement.

People who were raised Jewish, are accustomed to all levels of Judaism, and have no problem recognizing others as fellow Jewish people.

The Messianic Jews who object to certain practices object because in a Jewish environment, we do cater to the most observant among us. In our family gatherings, when there are Orthodox Jews, we provide Kosher food. At the Jewish community center, where Jewish people from all branches of Judaism attend, the community center has a Kosher kitchen, even though not all eat Kosher. The Jewish community center is closed on Saturday. But in the general Jewish community, there are other commercial establishments open on Shabbat, if owned by a Reform Jew. This is nothing new. It is standard Jewish practice in a general Jewish community.

To say that there was a debate or discussion only supports that there are Jewish people there.

Once again, Messianic Judaism starts with Jewish people who identify with the Jewish community, desire the Jewish people to hear about Yeshua, and Messianic Jews celebrate the High Holy days.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Wow, posts in stereo!

Now that’s funny stuff!

Now that’s funny stuff!

Now that’s funny stuff!

Sorry. Just had to.

Sorry. Just had to.

Sorry. Just had to.

 

[anisavta]

I'd be a little relictant to say there is "nothing" anti-Torah in the teachings, though. While I will confess they have come a long way, there are still a number of teachings popular in the MJAA that I would regard as fundamentally anti-Torah, although the speaker might not realize it.

This was my first MJAA conf. (I affiliate w/ UMJC) I'm not sure about general teachings,but at the conference,nothing was against Torah. It was more evangelistic than UMJC.
As far as this One Law that keeps being pushed on us here, I get the feeling that Qnts wants that so bad for us,that she has decided that is the direction we as a MJ forum must go in. I haven't figured out why this is so important for her.

 

[anisavta]

YM-
You a funny guy.

 

[mishkan]

I wish they would at least get the names of the books correct! All the way through, every mention of the last book is shown a Revelations (plural)! You'd think that a group that large would at least get the names of sections of The Book correct!

LOL!

Yeah, that's a pet peeve of mine, as well. One Revelation, or one Apocalypse. Funny, those who use "Apocalypse" NEVER get confused and use "Apocalypses". LOL! I wonder why that is so.

Sort of like the book of Zechariah, I suppose. I cringe every time I hear, "... and the prophet ZAchariah..."! There actually shouldn't be any vowel at all there--it is a shva--which would make it, "Z'char'yah".

Oh well, whatcha gonna do?