The MJAA as a standard of Messianic Judaism

[Messianic Jewboy]

I really think Henny and easyG are right about this. No scriptures tell us that Gentiles are grafted into the Jewish community. They are grafted into the community of the faithful, which has always had Jew and gentile, since even before the Cross.

I don't except that this is a result of dispensationalism, as any cursory analysis of the fundamentals of that system would quickly establish that such an indictment is warranted.

If you honestly believe that people come to the Cross to become Jewish, and as such that Jesus died to make all people Jewish, then I would challenge your authority to say that and ask you to convince me that you are not a member of a cult. I'm not literally saying that in your case, but surely you would agree that such a novel and exclusive position would cause that suspicion.

Just because you are grafted in doesn't make you Jewish. I say the church is Israel, the believing Jewish remnant and believing Gentiles. This is a mystery that Gentiles can be grafted in, 'in this state'. I was having this discussion on another forum and it was interesting that I was getting accused and misrepresented about this. It made me see some things; Gentiles Christians don't want any part of Israel as in being part of Israel. In other words the default mindset is if I'm part of Israel that means I have to do something to be part of Israel. Or that my indentity changes. In the discussion I added nothing more or less; Gentiles become part of Israel which is the believing Jewish remnant. I never implied you are under the law of Israel or you're obligated to the law of Israel but I got a lot of resistance.

 

[Qnts2]

I just wanted to address this separately, to say this is to say that MJ opposes One Torah. But that is found in Torah to say the opposite. Therefore it can be concluded that MJ opposes Torah.

That is going too far, as Messianic Judaism does not oppose the Torah. Messianic Judaism opposes a misinterpretation of the Torah.

One law theology teaches that Gentiles who believe on Jesus are obligated to the same Mosaic laws as the children of Israel. The basis of this belief is taking verses out of context. The belief is that the Tenakh says there is one law for Israel, and the stranger/alien. Therefore what applies to Israel applies to Gentiles who are sojourning with Israel.

Number 15:14
If an alien sojourns with you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wishes to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the LORD, just as you do so he shall do.
15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD. 16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”

There are many errors to this. The first error is the assumption that the Gentiles who now believe on Yeshua are ‘sojourning’ with Israel. Normally this is phrased as, the Gentiles who believe on the Jewish Messiah are now part of the commonwealth of Israel.

Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

The verse starts by saying the Gentiles were excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. That means that at the time before Yeshua, even those who were strangers (Gentiles) living among Israel and could bring an offering to the Temple, these Gentiles were still excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. Being saved as a Gentile didn’t somehow alter this commandment. Unsaved Gentiles were allowed to bring a sacrifice while excluded from the commonwealth.

The second issue is that the verse does not say Gentiles are now part of the commonwealth of Israel but rather, they were brought near. Being brought near means the Gentiles now have the hope. That hope come from belief in Messiah who is the covenant of promise to Israel.

What does scripture means when it refers to a stranger.

Gen 15:13 God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.

Different people groups had land which was theirs. The children of Israel received the land of Israel. The Egyptians had the land of Egypt. When the children of Israel were in Egypt, they were called strangers because they lived in a land which was not their own. They were not a part of the people to whom the land was given, so they were strangers living in someone else’s land. A stranger in the land of Israel would be a person who is not a child of Israel or a Gentile. Living in any land, even as a stranger, a person is subject to certain laws of that land. But, as a stranger, they do not have all of the requirements or rights of the person who is a member of the people of the land. In the U.S.A., a stranger (non-citizen) must get permission to hold a job in that land. A stranger does not have the right to vote. But, a stranger is subject to laws such as not being allowed to murder, or steal.

So, under the Mosaic law, which was the law of the land of Israel, some laws did apply to strangers, but not all of the laws applied to stranger.

Under the Mosaic law, a child of Israel (Jewish person), was only allowed to marry a Jewish person. It is clear that this was not a law which applied to strangers.

Under the Mosaic law, on the year of Jubilee (50th year), any land which had been sold/transferred to someone other then the inheriting family had to be returned to the inheriting family on the year of Jubilee. No stranger had inheritance rights, so if land had been sold/transferred to a stranger, the stranger did not own the land permanently.

Under the Mosaic law, if a Jewish person became destitute they could sell themselves as a bond servant to another. If the person was a stranger, a relative of the destitute Jewish person, called a kinsmen redeemer, was to purchase the person from bond service, paying the price. Strangers had no law of kinsmen redeemer.

Also, under the Mosaic law, the children of Israel were commanded to treat strangers well. They were to treat the strangers as well as their own people, the natives. A stranger did not receive this command as it was up to the Jewish people to treat the strangers well because the Jewish people know what it is like to be an oppressed stranger from our time in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 23:9 “ You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Lev 19:34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.

At this point, it is clear that the Mosaic law did not all apply to strangers. In otherwords the belief that being brought near to the commonwealth means that there is One Law, the same for the children of Israel and the stranger. Being a believer in Yeshua does not make a Gentile obligated to the same law as the Jewish people. As a matter of fact, the stranger without Yeshua, is excluded from the commonwealth but as a stranger living in Israel, they are obligated to keep the subset of laws for strangers. And those who are not strangers (a Gentiles who does not live in the land of Israel) are not subject to the laws of the land of Israel.

The Mosaic law is very specific as to who each law applies to. Some law apply to women only. And some apply to men only. Some apply to the Priesthood only. Some apply to all children of Israel. And some apply to the children of Israel and strangers. To sort this out, the Mosaic law states who is obligated to which laws.

Lev 17:12 Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘No person among you may eat blood, nor may any alien who sojourns among you eat blood.’

In the land of Israel, no children of Israel, nor a Gentile who is sojourns among the children of Israel in the land of Israel is to eat blood.
That law applied to everyone in the land of Israel.

Lev 11: 1 The LORD spoke again to Moses and to Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘These are the creatures which you may eat from all the animals that are on the earth. 3 Whatever divides a hoof, thus making split hoofs, and chews the cud, among the animals, that you may eat. 4 Nevertheless,you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you. 5 Likewise, the shaphan, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 6 the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 7 and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you. 8 You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

In Lev 11, the Lord spoke to the children of Israel only, telling them they were only allowed to eat animal which had split hooves and chewed their cud. This was not a command given to the Gentiles who were in the land of Israel. The Jewish people and Gentiles in the land were not to eat blood, but the restriction on which animals could not be eaten was given only to the children of Israel, not the Gentiles.

 

[Henaynei]

So the same is true of the misunderstanding, 'neither Jew not Gentile, but one new man in Messiah'? Does this mean that the Kingdom and King that I swore fealty to is not of Israel? What about the New Jerusalem, will I need a passport? Or does this mean that I can only worship and obey from afar? Gee, I thought we could go boldly before the Throne. I thought we were heirs. I thought that we were sons.

A lot of people I know are going to be soooo disappointed.

There is no need for disappointment.
Yes, we Gentiles can go boldly before the Throne. Because of the Blood of Messiah those who were once afar off have been cleansed and now have equal access to the G-d of the Universe.
True, this G-d is the G-d of the set apart Jews, now He is also G-d of the set apart Gentiles. This doesn't make Gentiles Jews, it makes them equal to Jews before the Throne.
All who submit to the Blood of Messiah will be citizens of the new Holy City. Both Jews and Gentiles.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Avodat]

Just because you are grafted in doesn't make you Jewish. I say the church is Israel, the believing Jewish remnant and believing Gentiles. This is a mystery that Gentiles can be grafted in, 'in this state'. I was having this discussion on another forum and it was interesting that I was getting accused and misrepresented about this. It made me see some things; Gentiles Christians don't want any part of Israel as in being part of Israel. In other words the default mindset is if I'm part of Israel that means I have to do something to be part of Israel. Or that my indentity changes. In the discussion I added nothing more or less; Gentiles become part of Israel which is the believing Jewish remnant. I never implied you are under the law of Israel or you're obligated to the law of Israel but I got a lot of resistance.

The problem with this statement is that it is often taken as meaning Replacement Theology by those who are Church, and suspect by those of his people who aren't. It may surprise some to know that God doesn't love the Church - whether it is Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, AOG, Elim, Dutch Reformed, Anglican etc etc etc. He doesn't love Messianic Judaism, or Judaism in any of its guises; G_d loves people. Man-made divisions of his people will not exist in the times to come, thankfully! So if we think there will be a Messianic grouping in heaven we are quite wrong!

 

[Qnts2]

There is no need for disappointment.
Yes, we Gentiles can go boldly before the Throne. Because of the Blood of Messiah those who were once afar off have been cleansed and now have equal access to the G-d of the Universe.
True, this G-d is the G-d of the set apart Jews, now He is also G-d of the set apart Gentiles. This doesn't make Gentiles Jews, it makes them equal to Jews before the Throne.
All who submit to the Blood of Messiah will be citizens of the new Holy City. Both Jews and Gentiles.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Well said.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The problem with this statement is that it is often taken as meaning Replacement Theology by those who are Church, and suspect by those of his people who aren't. It may surprise some to know that God doesn't love the Church - whether it is Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, AOG, Elim, Dutch Reformed, Anglican etc etc etc. He doesn't love Messianic Judaism, or Judaism in any of its guises; G_d loves people. Man-made divisions of his people will not exist in the times to come, thankfully! So if we think there will be a Messianic grouping in heaven we are quite wrong!

Well I don't have a problem calling it the church. Maybe you should contribute in the 'Olive Tree of Israel' thread.

 

[Qnts2]

Just because you are grafted in doesn't make you Jewish. I say the church is Israel, the believing Jewish remnant and believing Gentiles. This is a mystery that Gentiles can be grafted in, 'in this state'. I was having this discussion on another forum and it was interesting that I was getting accused and misrepresented about this. It made me see some things; Gentiles Christians don't want any part of Israel as in being part of Israel. In other words the default mindset is if I'm part of Israel that means I have to do something to be part of Israel. Or that my indentity changes. In the discussion I added nothing more or less; Gentiles become part of Israel which is the believing Jewish remnant. I never implied you are under the law of Israel or you're obligated to the law of Israel but I got a lot of resistance.

Just curious, if the believing Gentiles and the believing Jewish remnant are Israel, what of the Jewish people who do not believe on Yeshua? Are they also Israel?

 

[Yahudim]

If I can chip in:

" Does this mean that the Kingdom and King that I swore fealty to is not of Israel?" - He is King of all, not just Israel. We don't serve a mere worldly King with a Kingdom with earthly boundaries and nationalities.

"What about the New Jerusalem, will I need a passport?" - Yes you do. Faith and baptism is the passport to get into the New Jerusalem.

"Or does this mean that I can only worship and obey from afar? Gee, I thought we could go boldly before the Throne." - You can, but there is no earthly throne.

"I thought we were heirs." - we are, but not of this world.

"I thought that we were sons." - you are, but not of an earthly Father.

Back to lurk mode for me. Interesting conversation. Carry on.

C'mon Contra, I used to get punished as a child for answering rhetorical questions. Duh!

 

[Yahudim]

That is going too far, as Messianic Judaism does not oppose the Torah. Messianic Judaism opposes a misinterpretation of the Torah.

*snip*​

Do you find the taste of your own medicine bitter?

 

[Yahudim]

There is no need for disappointment.
Yes, we Gentiles can go boldly before the Throne. Because of the Blood of Messiah those who were once afar off have been cleansed and now have equal access to the G-d of the Universe.
True, this G-d is the G-d of the set apart Jews, now He is also G-d of the set apart Gentiles. This doesn't make Gentiles Jews, it makes them equal to Jews before the Throne.
All who submit to the Blood of Messiah will be citizens of the new Holy City. Both Jews and Gentiles.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

What I said to Contra, Hen. Geez, thanks for the kindergarten lesson Sis.

DOES ANYBODY HERE THINK THAT GENTILES BECOME JEWS? ​

I didn't think so... I think what Mishan said about ethnic paranoia hit the nail on the head.

 

[Henaynei]

What I said to Contra, Hen. Geez, thanks for the kindergarten lesson Sis.

LOL

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Avodat]

Well I don't have a problem calling it the church. Maybe you should contribute in the 'Olive Tree of Israel' thread.

Obviously not. But we do get bogged down by trying to fit the people he loves into nice neat packages - in fact most of CF is just that: which package do you fit into?

It is not the package that Yeshua died for - it's the people that we try and squash into them that he loves and died for.

Or are you implying that 'G_d so love the world that he sent committees, congregations, Churches, Judaism and synagogues, that whosoever believes in them shall not perish but shall have eternal life"? I think not.

 

[ChavaK]

Everyone will see it differently. I see what you call MJism as just another American religious movement. If I'm right, it will have a shelf-life.

I agree that it's an American religious movement, but I think it will have
a long "shelf life". This is probably gonna get me in trouble but I think
one of the things that draws people to it is the copying of Jewish rituals
and practices and culture. Take that away and it would be a lot less
attractive to Gentiles.

 

[GuardianShua]

Well I don't have a problem calling it the church. Maybe you should contribute in the 'Olive Tree of Israel' thread.

I sometimes use the word church for those who do not know any better. The correct translation is "congregation" or "assembly."

 

[GuardianShua]

I agree that it's an American religious movement, but I think it will have
a long "shelf life". This is probably gonna get me in trouble but I think
one of the things that draws people to it is the copying of Jewish rituals
and practices and culture. Take that away and it would be a lot less
attractive to Gentiles.

You need to keep in mind that Messianic or Christianity has its roots in Judaism. We drink from the same well the Patriarchs dug.

 

[Qnts2]

Do you find the taste of your own medicine bitter?

Not sure why you say this or what you are referring to.

 

[mishkan]

That is going too far, as Messianic Judaism does not oppose the Torah. Messianic Judaism opposes a misinterpretation of the Torah.

As long as anything contradicts the early Christian-based assumptions of missionary-based Jewish evangelism, with the goal of making Jews into Christians, you will regard it as a misinterpretation. You've made that fairly clear.

I believe the script needs to be flipped--we need to once again realize that the mission described in the Bible is that of Israel bringing Gentiles to know YHWH by assimilating the Gentile nations. Specifically, the nations would join themselves to the Jewish sect that followed Yeshua, and identified him as Mashiach.

One law theology teaches that Gentiles who believe on Jesus are obligated to the same Mosaic laws as the children of Israel.

More to the point, what you like to label as "One Law Theology" teaches that Gentiles who claim to follow the Jewish Mashiach ought to act like they follow the Jewish Mashiach. He taught his disciples to do all things that he had commanded, and he instructed them to go and make disciples of the nation, teaching THEM to likewise do all things that he had instructed them. The foundational documents of the Messianic Movement demonstrate that the expectation existed that Messianics would increase the numbers of Israel by integrating Gentiles into their sectarian group.

The basis of this belief is taking verses out of context.

Well... "... eye of the beholder," and all that.

The belief is that the Tenakh says there is one law for Israel, and the stranger/alien. Therefore what applies to Israel applies to Gentiles who are sojourning with Israel.

Basically, yes. Would you prefer Gentiles who join themselves to Israel to insist that the Jews must follow sharia law?

Let's be real about this. Paul says, in strongly worded language, that Gentiles are joined to Israel, using both agricultural and political metaphors. Would you think these Gentiles were supposed to be engrafted to Israel, and replace the Torah of God with their own national ethos? Or does it make more sense to expect these Gentiles to learn the Torah, as they exclaim, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people!"

Therefore be careful to observe [Torah], for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, "Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people!"

For what great nation [is there] that has God near to it, as YHWH our God [is] to us, for whatever [reason] we may call upon Him? And what great nation [is there] that has [such] statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

I find it odd that you quote Moshe (Bamidbar/Numbers 15:14,15). You quote Sha'ul (Ephesians 2:12-15). Then you say... "There are many errors to this."

I hope I've misunderstood you, but you seem to have a problem with the Scriptures, not with those who follow them.

The first error is the assumption that the Gentiles are ‘sojourning’ with Israel. Normally this is phrased as, the Gentiles who believe on the Jewish Messiah are now part of the commonwealth of Israel.

Indeed. Aligning one's self with Israel is likened to "sojourning" with Israel in this world. As opposed to being an enemy. Would you prefer we went back to the traditional Church postures? For that is precisely the position of those who have recently repudiated Gentile inclusion. I'll treat that more fully in another thread.

The verse starts by saying the Gentiles were excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. That means that at the time before Yeshua, even those who were strangers (Gentiles) living among Israel and could bring an offering to the Temple, these Gentiles were still excluded from the commonwealth of Israel.

I think that is just foolishness. Plainly, Gentiles who were excluded were excluded. Those few who joined themselves to Israel are not in view. If they were bringing sacrifices, then they were "clean" and "included".
You need to recognize a little thing called "a generalization". The exclusion came from community standards and prejudices that were designed to keep Gentiles away from joining Israel--a "circle the wagons" approach to being "separate" from the nations. Basically, Ephesians 2 was written explicitly to counter the sort of divisiveness you are bring to the table.

Being saved as a Gentile didn’t somehow alter this commandment.

What commandment? You mean the one about their being one law for both native-born and for sojourners traveling with Israel?

Unsaved Gentiles were allowed to bring a sacrifice while excluded from the commonwealth.

You'll have to show me an instance or two where that actually happens before I consider that claim.

The second issue is that the verse does not say Gentiles are now part of the commonwealth of Israel but rather, they were brought near. Being brought near means the Gentiles now have the hope. That hope come from belief in Messiah who is the covenant of promise to Israel.

This is something I don't miss about dispensationalism--getting caught up in private interpretations of single words while missing the context of the entire chapter and book. Let's read this carefully...

Once You Were...

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Several observations to make here regarding the primary audience being addressed:

• They were once Gentiles. This certainly does suggest that they are now no longer Gentiles. Wouldn't you agree?

• At the time they were identified as "Uncircumcision", they were without Messiah.

• Why were they without Messiah? Because they were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel" and "strangers from the covenants of Promise".

• As a result of being "not-Israel", they were without hope, and without God in the world. (Clearly, this condition would not exist for those converts who had already joined themselves to Israel and the worship of YHWH.

But Now You Are...

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation

This is the contrast to the previously described situation...

• Being "in Messiah" has terminated the "aliens and strangers" status, and made the readers "brought near".

• "Brought near" to what? The contrast tells us that it is Israel. The Gentile readers have experienced a change of state in regards to Israel--what we might call "conversion".

• "For he is our peace". Most gloss over this, thinking that the peace has been effected between God and man. I would suggest that the peace needing to be addressed by Sha'ul is the reconciliation between Jews and Gentiles, bringing them together into one body.

• The middle wall of partition was about the wall that delineated the "Court of the Gentiles" from the area in the Temple that was reserved for Jewish access.

What Needed to Be Abolished, and Why?

Traditional Christian interpretation tells us that what needed to be destroyed was the Torah. Why? So that humanity could be reconciled to God. But that isn't what this passage is saying, at all!

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, [that is], the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man [from] the two, [thus] making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

• What did Yeshua abolish? An enmity. Somebody had an animosity going that prevented somebody else from being reconciled to God.

• This animosity was reinforced by a "law of commandments in ordinances". Most people stop at the word "law", and assume that the Torah is in view here. But this phrase does not refer to the Torah. "Law" and "commandments" are both modifiers of "ordinances". But in this case, "ordinances" translates the Greek word "dogma", a word that is never used in reference to the Torah--not in the Messianic Writings, and not in the LXX.
  
  The dogma here is the traditional community prejudice against Gentiles--the sort of dogma that brought Kefa to tell Cornelius, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation (Acts 10:28, NKJV). There is no law anywhere in Torah that says a Jew cannot keep company with a Gentile--that is a rabbinic prohibition!

• Now, by removing the rabbinic prohibition, and thus the anti-Gentile prejudice, what happens? Gentiles are allowed to flow into Israel, where there is access to the God of Israel! This is in full accord with both Isaiah and Micah, who both state:
  
  

  Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths."
  
  For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
  (Isaiah 2:3; Micah 4:2 NKJV)

  This takes us right back to Yeshua's instruction to, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you."
  
  The goal of Israel has always been to serve as the core, the critical mass, the nuclear fissionable material, that would serve as the catalyst to being all nations INTO itself, and join themselves to YHWH. The purpose of setting Israel apart was not simply to serve the selfish desire of being eternally "different". Israel was set apart in order that its light--the light of Hashem and His Torah--might shine the more brightly, and attract the nations to God. Exclusiveness has nothing to do with Israel's calling.

As a Result...

As a result of destroying the animosity that was once ensconced in rabbinic decrees and social prejudice, the Gentiles have been allowed free access to... to what? Most people want to gloss over that detail, and pretend the text says, "free access to God". But that isn't what it says.

And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.

Yeshua came for the purpose of bringing peace to both Jews (already near) and Gentiles (those who once were far off. Because of Yeshua, we can effect reconciliation, and become one community, one people. This is a Good Thing!

For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Because of Yeshua, Gentiles can now align themselves with Israel, and join Israel as B'nei Elohim, serving alongside their Israeli brethren, as children of the same father.

But this position presupposes a few things.

1. Israel is the focus of the plan.

2. The "church" does not exist outside of Israel.

3. Gentiles are admitted as co-heirs and brothers, on equal footing, as part of b'nei Yisrael. This is the meaning of the next few verses...


(continued in the next post...)

 

[mishkan]

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner[stone], in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Those who once were far off are now NO LONGER strangers and foreigners, but now are made fellow citizens, part of the household of God, built upon the promises of the prophets (remember Isaiah and Micah?), and Messiah--the Promised King of Israel--being the final capstone on the edifice of prophecy, calling the nations to himself as he sits on the throne of David.

THIS is the single, consistent theme of salvation history.

What does scripture means when it refers to a stranger.

It means "outsider", "auslander"... just like you are trying to declare Messianic Gentiles to be today.

Different people groups had land which was theirs. The children of Israel received the land of Israel. The Egyptians had the land of Egypt. When the children of Israel were in Egypt, they were called strangers because they lived in a land which was not their own.

Land is irrelevant to the concept.

They were not a part of the people to whom the land was given,

You almost hit it here, but you gloss too quickly over the key phrase. "They were not a part of the people". That's the concept under discussion. Unity or alienation. You desire alienation, while Gentiles like myself speak Unity.

But, as a stranger, they do not have all of the requirements or rights of the person who is a member of the people of the land. In the U.S.A., a stranger (non-citizen) must get permission to hold a job in that land. A stranger does not have the right to vote. But, a stranger is subject to laws such as not being allowed to murder, or steal.

Gentiles who follow Messiah have been extended a personal invitation directly from the King. Imagine the chagrin that will be experienced when the King of Israel some day has to ask you, "Why did you reject so many who wished to join my Kingdom, and help grow the nation of Israel?"

Under the Mosaic law, a child of Israel (Jewish person), was only allowed to marry a Jewish person. It is clear that this was not a law which applied to strangers.

Then stop calling fellow-heirs, and co-citizens in the Israeli empire, "strangers". Yeshua gave the direction to call us and teach us. Paul clearly makes the case that we once were strangers, but now are brothers--equals in the nation.

I'll leave the rest of your post, for it is premised on the false dichtomy that Gentiles who follow the Israeli King still remain "strangers". You keep wanting to slap me, and others like me, with the label of "stranger", so that you can then make a case that strangers don't participate on equal footing. But that isn't what Yeshua and Sha'ul taught, so I'm not going to waste time on the straw man argument.

The Mosaic law is very specific

Funny, how you keep citing the Torah, since we all know you don't believe the Torah is binding on ANYbody. You've already insisted that Torah has nothing to do with Messianic Judaism--a position with which I take strong issue.

But that's a separate discussion, for another time. In order to prepare for it, though, I encourage you to re-read Devarim 4:6-8 (actually, chapter 4, 5, 6, etc.)

Therefore be careful to observe [Torah], for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, "Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people!"

For what great nation [is there] that has God near to it, as YHWH our God [is] to us, for whatever [reason] we may call upon Him? And what great nation [is there] that has [such] statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

 

[Qnts2]

You need to keep in mind that Messianic or Christianity has its roots in Judaism. We drink from the same well the Patriarchs dug.

If you mean that Christianity and Messianic both believe in the Messiah, who fulfilled the prophesy that He would be born of the line of David and Judah and Jacob and Isaac and Abraham and Shem etc. So Yeshua was born a Jew as prophesied, then maybe you can say Jewish roots.

Yeshua actually fulfilled all previous covenants. Which includes the Mosaic covenant.

My point is that the idea of the Messiah did not start with the Mosaic covenant given to the Jewish people. Judaism is based on the Mosaic covenant, and the Tenakh. The promise of the Messiah pre-dates the Mosaic covenant. And the well we drink from is Yeshua.

The scriptures were written by Jewish people, so have a Jewish flavor of a person who looks at the Messiah thru the eyes of a person who has kept the Mosaic law as a member of the chosen nation of Israel. But the Messiah and well pre-date the Jewish people.

 

[Qnts2]

Those who once were far off are now NO LONGER strangers and foreigners, but now are made fellow citizens, part of the household of God, built upon the promises of the prophets (remember Isaiah and Micah?), and Messiah--the Promised King of Israel--being the final capstone on the edifice of prophecy, calling the nations to himself as he sits on the throne of David.

THIS is the single, consistent theme of salvation history.


It means "outsider", "auslander"... just like you are trying to declare Messianic Gentiles to be today.


Land is irrelevant to the concept.


You almost hit it here, but you gloss too quickly over the key phrase. "They were not a part of the people". That's the concept under discussion. Unity or alienation. You desire alienation, while Gentiles like myself speak Unity.



Gentiles who follow Messiah have been extended a personal invitation directly from the King. Imagine the chagrin that will be experienced when the King of Israel some day has to ask you, "Why did you reject so many who wished to join my Kingdom, and help grow the nation of Israel?"


Then stop calling fellow-heirs, and co-citizens in the Israeli empire, "strangers". Yeshua gave the direction to call us and teach us. Paul clearly makes the case that we once were strangers, but now are brothers--equals in the nation.

I'll leave the rest of your post, for it is premised on the false dichtomy that Gentiles who follow the Israeli King still remain "strangers". You keep wanting to slap me, and others like me, with the label of "stranger", so that you can then make a case that strangers don't participate on equal footing. But that isn't what Yeshua and Sha'ul taught, so I'm not going to waste time on the straw man argument.


Funny, how you keep citing the Torah, since we all know you don't believe the Torah is binding on ANYbody. You've already insisted that Torah has nothing to do with Messianic Judaism--a position with which I take strong issue.

But that's a separate discussion, for another time. In order to prepare for it, though, I encourage you to re-read Devarim 4:6-8 (actually, chapter 4, 5, 6, etc.)

A lot of talk, most misrepresentations about me and my beliefs (strawman arguments and insults concerning my beliefs) and very little scripture.