The MJAA as a standard of Messianic Judaism

[Yahudim]

*snip*​

To say that there was a debate or discussion only supports that there are Jewish people there.

Once again, Messianic Judaism starts with Jewish people who identify with the Jewish community, desire the Jewish people to hear about Yeshua, and Messianic Jews celebrate the High Holy days.

And I thought we were supposed to make them jealous. So there really isn't one man in Messiah after all? Hmm... Nope, it's still there. I just read it.

Let me see if I understand you. You are OK with Jews that have all levels of observance (or non-observance), but you don't think Gentiles should be able to observe Torah? Also, they should be castigated for any faux pas while learning. (I think I just read something about teaching in love and humility) At the very least, Gentiles should submit themselves to the arbitrary labels assigned them by the Jewish born among us? Again, Hmm...

It seems as though you are fine with the label Messianic, but you rail against a Gentile following any type of Judaism not officially sanctioned by the rabbinate. Well we know that that's not going to happen. I somehow don't think that your 'my way or the highway' approach is getting much traction here. Some of us actually do seek His will and read His Word. Traditions come in second.

Wait, I get it! Messianic Gentilism. Oops. Sorry, can't do it. My spell checker will not even allow me to save that word!

 

[Avodat]

Now that’s funny stuff!

Now that’s funny stuff!

Now that’s funny stuff!

Sorry. Just had to.

Sorry. Just had to.

Sorry. Just had to.

 

[SAM Wis]

So there really isn't one man in Messiah after all. Hmm... Nope, it's still there. I just read it.

Let me see if I understand you. You are OK with Jews that have all levels of observance (or non-observance), but you don't think Gentiles should be able to observe Torah? Also, they should be castigated for any faux pas while learning. (I think I just read something about teaching in love and humility) At the very least, Gentiles should submit themselves to the arbitrary labels assigned them by the Jewish born among us? Again, Hmm...

It seems as though you are fine with the label Messianic, but you rail against a Gentile following any type of Judaism not officially sanctioned by the rabbinate. Well we know that that's not going to happen. I somehow don't think that your 'my way or the highway' approach is getting much traction here. Some of us actually do seek His will and read His Word. Traditions come in second.

Wait, I get it! Messianic Gentilism. Oops. Sorry, can't do it. My spell checker will not even allow me to save that word to my custom dictionary!

Agreed! It really is a convoluted positional understanding, isn't it? No disrespect intended, yet the logical fallacies throughout this sort of position do make it a pretty weak, unsubstantiated place to be. But that doesn't seem to stop a lot of people in various teaching positions from teaching such an understanding anyway.

So, in essence, to say it another way, the position seems to be that a person of Jewish blood is "okay" with our Father whatever parts of Torah they choose to observe while a Gentile who isn't "sanctioned" by a rabbi is an offense to our Creator for choosing to honor His commandments to the best of their ability?

Is it possible that there are two levels of "discussion" going on here?

1 is directly in relation to how this thread operates.
2 is how the larger body of Believers operates.

When the two get mixed in together it seems like it gets really muddy!

There is a proverbial raft of Scripture that speaks of the need for both the native born and the sojourner to honor His Law in various ways but efforts to "argue" Scripture, point counterpoint, are not always edifying. I don't think that many people who take the above described position realize how offensive it is to others, being mostly focused on the need to defend their own position. (Think elder brother and prodigal son--Who worked to bring resolution--neither son, but the Father!)

I saw a few comments back, too, about Gentiles being grafted in through faith right alongside the natural branches...sorry don't have the exact location or post...but I think they forgot to note that even the natural branches have to be grafted in by faith, not just bloodline. Haven't we all heard that: all Israel is not Israel? (Romans 9:6)

My understanding, too, is that all of this discussion, looking to what the human organizations (whichever group!) have attempted to set down as guidelines, is secondary to what our Abba has established in His Word as our standard.

Though it may be indicating that it is time for whose ever job it is to reconsider and re-write the guidelines for this forum instead of taking a ready-made one that was expedient when in the original development phase.

But, there is an even more basic need.

NOTE: I am NOT applying this to anyone in particular; just making a general observation that I hope will be helpful to consider in this ongoing dilemma. It applies to many similar situations, not just the ongoing issue of how Judah interacts with the rest of us; and vice versa.

If we go back to basics, taking a look at the various Scriptures that refer to learning line upon line, and precept upon precept, as well as all of those that refer to the need for maturity, I think we would well go back to a bottom line in:

My son, hear the instruction of your father and forsake not the law of your mother; for they shall be an ornament of grace on your head, and chains about your neck. Proverbs 1: 8-9

This is generally understood to refer to the need for personal teaching and maturity and character development that is the realm of our mother BEFORE one is equipped and mature enough to interpret the finer points of the Law of our father, (and Father!)


My concern is that there are so many people who have forsaken the "law of your mother" which has to do with character development and maturity.
Part of that development is the capacity to be able to reason well and to study to show oneself approved.

If the foundations of maturity, emotional and intellectual and relational, are only partially formed, even though they have reached adult age, people will still have a very hard time and may be unable to recognize illogical or incoherent arguments. Then, the tendency all too often is to fight tooth and nail to defend what they have always understood is "right" showing their loyalty, whether or not there is substance to their position.


As a result, if such people are in positions of authority, they tend to be more emotionally reactive and can also be more prone to positions of rigidity. (There is much more to say to more fully expand this point, but I hope this brief statement at least sets the stage.)

Followers of those leaders, people whose understandings are "stuck" in such a position, not being able to recognize illogical things, are then very defensive, and often very unhappy because they can't figure out why others don't agree with the authority they have accepted.

All too often, in "real life" and I suppose here, too, there are many people ready to pick up the proverbial gauntlet. Some people relish the excitement of it, and some are just put off by it.


Thankfully, not everyone in every oppositional relationship falls prey to such difficulties. And thankfully, the Author and Finisher of our faith isn't finished with any of us yet. In the big picture, I continue to see so clearly that we are yet "on the way" to what He has intended from the beginning.

As far as this forum: Does the SOP define the participants or do the participants define the SOP? Who is the final authority?

 

[ChavaK]

It seems like a daunting task to "organize" the Messianic faith into one neat little package. You have the problem of going about things "backward".

Judaism started off as Judaism...Jews were Orthodox or they weren't. There wasn't
any choice of Reform or Conservative or whatever. It wasn't until recent times that
it separated into different branches. Before then Jews agreed what Judaism was, even if they chose not to observe it.

The Messianic faith has the problem of trying to take all the wide variations of beliefs and backgrounds and try to gather them all back together into one package everyone can agree on.

I think that is going to prove very difficult to do.

 

[Yahudim]

It seems like a daunting task to "organize" the Messianic faith into one neat little package. You have the problem of going about things "backward".

Judaism started off as Judaism...Jews were Orthodox or they weren't. There wasn't
any choice of Reform or Conservative or whatever. It wasn't until recent times that
it separated into different branches. Before then Jews agreed what Judaism was, even if they chose not to observe it.

The Messianic faith has the problem of trying to take all the wide variations of beliefs and backgrounds and try to gather them all back together into one package everyone can agree on.

I think that is going to prove very difficult to do.

Well then, I guess we could say the same things about all forms of Judaism, Messianic and otherwise. No neat little packages on either side of that 'fence'.

 

[Qnts2]

And I thought we were supposed to make them jealous. So there really isn't one man in Messiah after all? Hmm... Nope, it's still there. I just read it.

Let me see if I understand you. You are OK with Jews that have all levels of observance (or non-observance), but you don't think Gentiles should be able to observe Torah? Also, they should be castigated for any faux pas while learning. (I think I just read something about teaching in love and humility) At the very least, Gentiles should submit themselves to the arbitrary labels assigned them by the Jewish born among us? Again, Hmm...

It seems as though you are fine with the label Messianic, but you rail against a Gentile following any type of Judaism not officially sanctioned by the rabbinate. Well we know that that's not going to happen. I somehow don't think that your 'my way or the highway' approach is getting much traction here. Some of us actually do seek His will and read His Word. Traditions come in second.

Wait, I get it! Messianic Gentilism. Oops. Sorry, can't do it. My spell checker will not even allow me to save that word!

I guess you haven't read my posts.

Messianic Gentiles who are called to keep the Mosaic law, should, to the extent the law allows. Messianic Gentiles are not required to keep the Mosaic law, but those who are called, should. The NT is clear that Gentiles are called to Messiah as Gentiles. Not as Jews. And Gentiles are to remain as Gentiles. That is a fulfillment of prophesy. And that is what Messianic Judaism recognizes. Some Gentiles are called to join in with Messianic Judaism, but their love will be for the Jewish people. Gentiles are called as Gentiles to remain as Gentiles. Yet, we are one body. Each person has a place, a gift and a calling.

For Gentiles to live as Jews denies the prophesy of the calling of Gentiles as Gentiles.

As far as Jewish people having different levels of observance, that is also a calling. And for some, I believe there are other reasons.

If it is a calling, then the focus is Messiah. But if it is viewed as a requirement, then it ceases to be a calling with the focus on the Messiah. The focus becomes the law. And that is where error sets in.

And yes, Gentiles are to make Jews jealous, but when Gentiles seek to live as Jews, then it is the Gentiles who are jealous of the Jewish lifestyle. You are fighting too hard to be recognized to have the right to live as Jews. But if it is a calling, there is a freedom and you don't have to fight because you heart is on the Messiah, not your 'rights'. And you realize each person whose heart is on the Messiah, also has a calling, and you don't have to demand everyone live as you do as everyone has their own gift and calling and it is more important for each person to follow the Messiah.

 

[Qnts2]

It seems like a daunting task to "organize" the Messianic faith into one neat little package. You have the problem of going about things "backward".

Judaism started off as Judaism...Jews were Orthodox or they weren't. There wasn't
any choice of Reform or Conservative or whatever. It wasn't until recent times that
it separated into different branches. Before then Jews agreed what Judaism was, even if they chose not to observe it.

The Messianic faith has the problem of trying to take all the wide variations of beliefs and backgrounds and try to gather them all back together into one package everyone can agree on.

I think that is going to prove very difficult to do.

I have not read the history of Judaism at all times. But, what I have read does show different views and practice among different groups.

From about 100 bce to around 130 ce, there were the Sadducees, Essense and the Perushim. The Sadducees and the Essense did not believe there was such a thing as an Oral Torah.

Then, there were also the various schools, Hillel vs Shammai, which both 'kept' the law but the view of how to do that was quite different.

Then entered the various messiahs and the arguments concerning them. And the Kabbalah followers (Shabbatai Zevi) and another split.

While Judaism has been more cohesive then Christianity, we are known for our differing opinions. I think the main reason we have been more cohesive is that being a minority, even while disagreeing, we had to stay together.

I should also say, that Messianic Judaism was very much in unity. I think we disagreed but it was the persecution which held us together as we needed to support each other.

 

[anisavta]

And yes, Gentiles are to make Jews jealous, but when Gentiles seek to live as Jews, then it is the Gentiles who are jealous of the Jewish lifestyle. You are fighting too hard to be recognized to have the right to live as Jews. But if it is a calling, there is a freedom and you don't have to fight because you heart is on the Messiah, not your 'rights'. And you realize each person whose heart is on the Messiah, also has a calling, and you don't have to demand everyone live as you do as everyone has their own gift and calling and it is more important for each person to follow the Messiah.

‎

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom Sister Qnts2,

You are mistaken. I have read your posts. I simply and respectfully disagree. This discussion really isn't about different degrees of observance. It is about bias. I have thought long and hard about this. I cannot find anything in the teachings of Messiah or Torah that supports your views. But I can find it in both the anti-Jewish Constantinian perversion of Christianity and in the anti-Gentile bias of the Rabbis and the Jewish community.

There is no such thing as a Messianic Gentile. There is however, Messianic Judaism that has adherents from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds. They are all Messianic Jews in the sense that they follow the tenets of the Judaism of Messiah Y'shua. You say that I am in the minority. In the world of Christianity you are correct. In the world of Messianic Judaism, I think you are behind the times.

You and I are talking about two different things. You are talking about keeping Gentiles from living as Jews. You are talking about the Jewish fear of assimilation by the Gentiles. You are talking about maintaining a racial separation in the congregation of Israel, despite prophecy. That is not what Y'shua or Paul taught. I am talking about there being 'neither Gentile nor Jew, but one man in Messiah'. I am talking about Gentiles being grafted into the root of Israel. Cultural bias cannot overrule scripture. Tradition cannot overrule the Word.

You have made several unfounded assumptions about my motives. That's OK. I can only tell you that you are wrong and my intention are founded in love for both the Word and the Jewish people. I am not trying to live as a Jew. Nor do I suggest anyone else do so. But I cannot and I will not suggest that anyone, Gentile or Jew, not keep even the least of the Master's commandments. And I do not accept that you or any organization on this earth has the authority to tell me otherwise.

In His Love,

 

[Jerushabelle]

Shalom Sister Qnts2,

You are mistaken. I have read your posts. I simply and respectfully disagree. This discussion really isn't about different degrees of observance. It is about bias. I have thought long and hard about this. I cannot find anything in the teachings of Messiah or Torah that supports your views. But I can find it in both the anti-Jewish Constantinian perversion of Christianity and in the anti-Gentile bias of the Rabbis and the Jewish community.

There is no such thing as a Messianic Gentile. There is however, Messianic Judaism that has adherents from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds. They are all Messianic Jews in the sense that they follow the tenets of the Judaism of Messiah Y'shua. You say that I am in the minority. In the world of Christianity you are correct. In the world of Messianic Judaism, I think you are behind the times.

You and I are talking about two different things. You are talking about keeping Gentiles from living as Jews. You are talking about the Jewish fear of assimilation by the Gentiles. You are talking about maintaining a racial separation in the congregation of Israel, despite prophecy. That is not what Y'shua or Paul taught. I am talking about there being 'neither Gentile nor Jew, but one man in Messiah'. I am talking about Gentiles being grafted into the root of Israel. Cultural bias cannot overrule scripture. Tradition cannot overrule the Word.

You have made several unfounded assumptions about my motives. That's OK. I can only tell you that you are wrong and my intention are founded in love for both the Word and the Jewish people. I am not trying to live as a Jew. Nor do I suggest anyone else do so. But I cannot and I will not suggest that anyone, Gentile or Jew, not keep even the least of the Master's commandments. And I do not accept that you or any organization on this earth has the authority to tell me otherwise.

In His Love,

Can you please show me where Sister Qnts2 has stated that anyone, Gentile or Jew, should not keep even the least of the Master's commandments? What organization has put this forth?...are you stating we shouldn't hold with the stance of the Messianic Judaism community?

 

[Mr. Donut]

Shalom Sister Qnts2,

You are mistaken. I have read your posts. I simply and respectfully disagree. This discussion really isn't about different degrees of observance. It is about bias. I have thought long and hard about this. I cannot find anything in the teachings of Messiah or Torah that supports your views. But I can find it in both the anti-Jewish Constantinian perversion of Christianity and in the anti-Gentile bias of the Rabbis and the Jewish community.

Sorry, but don't you mean anti-Christ bias of the Rabbis?
The Scriptures record the Jewish leaders and Saul's hatred toward those following Yeshua.
Our "buddy", Constantine came some time later... and his band of merry men... all with fish hats... hey, wasn't he a high priest of some a pagan sun god?

There is no such thing as a Messianic Gentile. There is however, Messianic Judaism that has adherents from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds. They are all Messianic Jews in the sense that they follow the tenets of the Judaism of Messiah Y'shua. You say that I am in the minority. In the world of Christianity you are correct. In the world of Messianic Judaism, I think you are behind the times.

Hmmm...

[FONT=&quot]What is a Messianic Gentile?!![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]by Don Daly[/FONT]

​

[FONT=&quot] That seems like such a strange term. Perhaps the meaning of the term will become clearer as we attempt to clarify the meaning of "Messianic Jewish". [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] It is generally understood that being Jewish means being a descendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and it implies being a follower of Judaism and its practices. In another sense, it is applied to anyone who has joined himself to the people of Israel through ritual conversion, including circumcision for men. The term "Messianic" (i.e. "of Messiah or Christ") refers to anyone, Jew or gentile, who has chosen to follow the Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). Scripturally, the term "gentile' refers to someone who was born of non-Jewish parents and who did not identify himself with Israel through ritual conversion and circumcision. Thus, a "Messianic gentile" could be applied to anyone who was born of non-Jewish parents and who is a follower of Yeshua. [/FONT]
​

I guess there is such a thing as a "Messianic Gentile".

You and I are talking about two different things. You are talking about keeping Gentiles from living as Jews. You are talking about the Jewish fear of assimilation by the Gentiles. You are talking about maintaining a racial separation in the congregation of Israel, despite prophecy. That is not what Y'shua or Paul taught. I am talking about there being 'neither Gentile nor Jew, but one man in Messiah'. I am talking about Gentiles being grafted into the root of Israel. Cultural bias cannot overrule scripture. Tradition cannot overrule the Word.

You have made several unfounded assumptions about my motives. That's OK. I can only tell you that you are wrong and my intention are founded in love for both the Word and the Jewish people. I am not trying to live as a Jew. Nor do I suggest anyone else do so. But I cannot and I will not suggest that anyone, Gentile or Jew, not keep even the least of the Master's commandments. And I do not accept that you or any organization on this earth has the authority to tell me otherwise.

In His Love,

Didn't that which became known as the Jerusalem Counsel make some distinctions between Jew and Gentile as to Torah observance? Acts 15 gives a fairly detailed description of the event as I recall...
The list given is, 1) Don't eat food offered to idols, 2) Don't eat meat of animals that have been strangled, 3) Don't eat any meat with the blood in it and, 4) They must not commit any sexual sins.(see Acts 15:28-29)
The "grafting in" of the Gentiles is that of a wild olive branch grafted into a cultivated olive tree, the enemies of God being embraced as children of God by faith. Does this mean Gentiles are no longer Gentile but Jews? No, Gentiles are still Gentiles because of their birth outside the lineage of Abraham, which of course no one knows for sure anymore...


But back to the regularly scheduled topic, yes.

 

[GuardianShua]

Constantine the Great was the Pontifex Maximus of Helios (the sun god). The Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest pontiff")

Constantine remained the Pagan high priest until the day he died.

 

[Qnts2]

Shalom Sister Qnts2,

You are mistaken. I have read your posts. I simply and respectfully disagree. This discussion really isn't about different degrees of observance. It is about bias. I have thought long and hard about this. I cannot find anything in the teachings of Messiah or Torah that supports your views. But I can find it in both the anti-Jewish Constantinian perversion of Christianity and in the anti-Gentile bias of the Rabbis and the Jewish community.

There is no such thing as a Messianic Gentile. There is however, Messianic Judaism that has adherents from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds. They are all Messianic Jews in the sense that they follow the tenets of the Judaism of Messiah Y'shua. You say that I am in the minority. In the world of Christianity you are correct. In the world of Messianic Judaism, I think you are behind the times.

You and I are talking about two different things. You are talking about keeping Gentiles from living as Jews. You are talking about the Jewish fear of assimilation by the Gentiles. You are talking about maintaining a racial separation in the congregation of Israel, despite prophecy. That is not what Y'shua or Paul taught. I am talking about there being 'neither Gentile nor Jew, but one man in Messiah'. I am talking about Gentiles being grafted into the root of Israel. Cultural bias cannot overrule scripture. Tradition cannot overrule the Word.

You have made several unfounded assumptions about my motives. That's OK. I can only tell you that you are wrong and my intention are founded in love for both the Word and the Jewish people. I am not trying to live as a Jew. Nor do I suggest anyone else do so. But I cannot and I will not suggest that anyone, Gentile or Jew, not keep even the least of the Master's commandments. And I do not accept that you or any organization on this earth has the authority to tell me otherwise.

In His Love,

Messianic Judaism has always been very careful about Gentiles representing themselves as Jewish. Since Messianic Jews are a part of the Jewish community, and desire for our families to come to know Yeshua, it is important the Messianic Gentiles represent themselves as Messianic Gentiles. If you say you are a Messianic Jew, Jewish people will think you are trying to deceive them. The last thing we want is to be desceptive.

This has already been covered but a Jewish person is a person who is a child of a Jewish mother (Orthodox and Conservative) or in the Reform branch, a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. If the father is Jewish, they must have been raised in Judaism to be considered Jewish. A Gentile who has converted to Judaism, and been ritually circumcised, is also considered Jewish and becomes a Messianic Jew if they later come to faith in Jesus.

A Gentile who chooses to follow the Mosaic law, remains a Gentile.

Genesis 17:14 But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

1 Cor 7:17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in all the churches. 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

So, to be Jewish, the males must be circumcised. Yet, the NT tells Gentiles, not to become circumcised but to remain uncircumcised. That means a Gentile is to remain a Gentile, and a Jew is to remain a Jew.

Being Jewish is not a race. Race is more of a fuzzy scientific definition and does not appear in scripture. Being Jewish is a linage, and ethnic group.

Just because I am Jewish does not mean I am somehow separated from other believers. Just because a person is a Black Christian and attends a Black church does not mean they are separated from being a member of the body along with whites and Chinese, and Native Americans. Culturally, Black churches are different then White churches. Native American worship services are different then Messianic Jewish worship services. These are all ethnic groups with different cultures. Each group worships the Lord from their own culture. That does not separate all believers. It shows that all believers are remnant of the various nations whom have become one, without having to all be the same. God is the God of all people.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

A Gentile who chooses to follow the Mosaic law, remains a Gentile.

What's your input on this? Does Messianic Judaism endorse a Gentile who chooses to follow the Mosaic law? Reason I ask is because there was circulation/s written about 'Torah is only for Jews' by a prominent Messianic Jewish leader. Then there is what's called Divine Invitation theology written with the help of Messianic Jewish leadership.

Ok a stance among Messianic Leadership based on the article 'Torah is only for Jews' is that stance. However according to FFOZ which wrote the Divine Invitation theology they got input from the likes of UMJC and MJAA, Hebrew roots, Christians... So they say.

So my question is since Messianic Jewish leadership stance is Torah for Jews only, how does Gentiles who choose to follow Torah come into play with the stance?

Since Gentiles can choose to follow the Mosaic Law and Messianic Jewish leadership has a stance on Torah for Jews only, what's all this mean? Supposively Messianic Jewish leadership helped FFOZ with this Divine Invitation theology.

 

[janwoG]

To Mpossof:
Since Gentiles can choose to follow the Mosaic Law and Messianic Jewish leadership has a stance on Torah for Jews only, what's all this mean? Supposively Messianic Jewish leadership helped FFOZ with this Divine Invitation theology.
I think that divine invitation invites gentiles to follow freely as much as mitzvoth they have a call to observe, including circumcision. However this circumcision does not represent a conversion into Judaism. Circumcised gentiles remain gentiles, they just practice Messianic Judaism.
I presently study Torah within their Torah Club.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

To Mpossof:
Since Gentiles can choose to follow the Mosaic Law and Messianic Jewish leadership has a stance on Torah for Jews only, what's all this mean? Supposively Messianic Jewish leadership helped FFOZ with this Divine Invitation theology.
I think that divine invitation invites gentiles to follow freely as much as mitzvoth they have a call to observe, including circumcision. However this circumcision does not represent a conversion into Judaism. Circumcised gentiles remain gentiles, they just practice Messianic Judaism.
I presently study Torah within their Torah Club.

I know. My asking for Qnts2 input was a different input question.

 

[Qnts2]

What's your input on this? Does Messianic Judaism endorse a Gentile who chooses to follow the Mosaic law? Reason I ask is because there was circulation/s written about 'Torah is only for Jews' by a prominent Messianic Jewish leader. Then there is what's called Divine Invitation theology written with the help of Messianic Jewish leadership.

Ok a stance among Messianic Leadership based on the article 'Torah is only for Jews' is that stance. However according to FFOZ which wrote the Divine Invitation theology they got input from the likes of UMJC and MJAA, Hebrew roots, Christians... So they say.

So my question is since Messianic Jewish leadership stance is Torah for Jews only, how does Gentiles who choose to follow Torah come into play with the stance?

Since Gentiles can choose to follow the Mosaic Law and Messianic Jewish leadership has a stance on Torah for Jews only, what's all this mean? Supposively Messianic Jewish leadership helped FFOZ with this Divine Invitation theology.

Let me just say, this is a huge topic and to give a full answer, I think I would need to write a booklet.

I personally do not believe most in Messianic Judaism believe that 'Torah is only for Jews'. Although that has been expressed by some. In that vain, what is meant by Torah is actually the Mosaic law, and keeping the Mosaic law.

1 John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Since the Tenakh wrote about Yeshua, then the Tenakh is clearly for all people. It points to the Messiah.

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

From a Diaspora Judaism view, the covenant which was given to all people was the Noachide covenant, so Gentiles are obligated to this covenant given to all who are descended from Noah. The Mosaic covenant was given to the children of Israel/Jewish people, so the Jewish people are obligated to the Mosaic covenant. The children of Israel are not fully back in the land, so there are no strangers or aliens dwelling among the children of Israel, as described in the Mosaic covenant.

Since the Mosaic laws are so specific as to who is to do what, Judaism takes that literally. Non-Kohanim are not to do what Kohanim are commanded to do, as that would be a violation of the law. Men are not to do what only women are commanded to do and if a man tried, that would be a violation of the law as that law is addressed to women only. So, Gentiles are not to do what only the Jewish people are commanded to do.
There are certain laws with no explanation, like the laws of Kosher. But, there is something which is easy to observe about the laws of Kosher. Since the Jewish people are restricted as to what they can eat, that law serves as a way to keep the Jewish people separate. Now, this is where I think some in the Messianic Jewish movement are coming from. God has used these laws for thousands of years to preserve and keep the nation of Israel separate as a nation. As a separated nation, in the end, all of the children of Israel who are alive and see Yeshua return, will be saved. Israel still has a unique calling which will be accomplished when the fullness of the Gentiles come in. So Gentiles should not keep the Mosaic law as God gave the law to the Jewish people for a purpose.

FFOZ has moved away from One Law.

FFOZ Blogs : Reasoning Together

If you disagree with us, feel free to contact us about it and give us a piece of your mind, but don't feel as if you have to burn our books. Remember, our mission statement has not changed. We remain more committed than ever to teaching the Torah and its way of life fully centered on Messiah to today's people of God. We believe that the Sabbath, the festivals, and the dietary laws are for all of God's people, not just the Jewish people. We remain committed to restoring the Jewish roots of Christianity, and we seek to see Gentile believers take on the as much of yoke of Torah in imitation of our Master as they are able. But we find the Bible makes a big difference between Jewish and Gentile obligation to Torah.

That is more in line with scripture and Messianic Judaism.

If the Jewish people were fully back in the land, with the Temple and the Priesthood, then Israel would be fully under the Mosaic law, which would includes a specific subset of the laws which apply also to the strangers in the land.

From FFOZ:

We presented a case for returning to the literal apostolic rule and standard on this issue, sticking close to the ruling of Acts 15 regarding the Gentile believers' place within Israel and their obligations to Torah. We called this the "Divine Invitation" position.
In a nutshell, the article said: "Gentile believers are not obligated to all of the same aspects of Torah as the Jewish people are, but they are invited to take hold of the heritage of Torah because they have been grafted into Israel and are part of the greater commonwealth of Israel."


I personally do not believe that Gentiles have been grafted into Israel. The cultivated Olive tree is not Israel. Israel is the Natural branches, most which have been cut off. Branches are grafted into the root. The root is the Messianic promises / Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.

Right now, In Yeshua the Messiah, the Gentiles are near the commonwealth of Israel. The verse says near because as of this time, Israel is not yet saved.

But, to me it is clear that some Gentiles will be called to live among the Jewish people, and living among Jewish people, the Gentiles who are called, especially to Israel, might also be called to the subset of the law for the strangers.

Now, what about the Gentiles who believe they are called to keep the law and/or have chosen to keep the law? I believe that is where freedom comes in. If a Gentile lives in or has a calling to the Orthodox Jewish people, then it would be reasonable to have a Kosher kitchen. I phrase this carefully since from an Orthodox view, the kitchen of a Gentile does not have to be Kosher so the kitchen would probably not be viewed as Kosher, there are things which can be done so that the Gentile can invite an Orthodox Jewish person over for a meal. I won't pretend to know why God would call some Gentiles to keep the Mosaic law but there is a difference between a calling and the belief the Mosaic law is a requirement for Gentiles (One Law)

There are certain things a Gentile has to take care with, as Gentiles should not take on the Jewish culture. In the New Covenant, we need to take care not to offend people with our lifestyles. By people, the NT specifically states non-believers. Scripture says Jesus is an offense, so when we talk about Yeshua, that is offensive to those who do not believe, but our lifestyle should not be the offense. Some in Messianic Judaism would probably disagree with my view that Gentiles can be called to keep the Mosaic covenant.

 

[anisavta]

I personally do not believe that Gentiles have been grafted into Israel. The cultivated Olive tree is not Israel. Israel is the Natural branches, most which have been cut off. Branches are grafted into the root. The root is the Messianic promises / Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.

And that's where the error of your theology lies.

 

[etZion]

And that's where the error of your theology lies.

Was thinking the same thing.

 

[Qnts2]

And that's where the error of your theology lies.

Ok, if you believe that the Gentile branches are grafted into Israel, and most of the Israel branches are cut off from the tree, does that mean Gentiles are grafted into cut off branches?