The MJAA as a standard of Messianic Judaism

[aniello]

Qnts and/or whoever,

I was interested in the early statement of faith by HCAA, which came to be MJAA. I've not been able to find such so far.

Any good help would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[mishkan]

Do you know what an anti-missionary is? (accented to draw attention to the question)

I know very well what an anti-missionary is. I studied with them, challenged them, and have discussed them with Orthodox rabbis. After 30 years in this community, how could anyone not know what an anti-missionary is??? I find the question insulting, to say the least.

My mission is not to create strife but to end it. Long before I joined this group, strife already existed.

Not seein' it, sister.

And apparently, what I have experienced is not new on the board. I thought I was joining a Messianic Judaism group. But instead, this is a group which objects to what most Messianic Jews actually believe.

Look, if you want to call Hebrew-Christians "Messianic Jews", feel free. But it takes a lot of chutzpah to think we're all going to change our terminology based on your say-so.

Messianic Judaism opposes One Law. Or, the people on this board will have to stop coming against Messianic Jews and what they believe and live as a diverse community.

Diversity, I can live with. What you're doing is something else.

Since people here have repeatedly come against Messianic Jews who believe in the SOF of the MJAA, then this board is anti-Messianic Jews.

No, they are part of that "diversity" you profess you want.

You don't really want us here.

Granted, I haven't read all the messages you claim to have received. I've heard nothing about anybody having problems with ANY of the views expressed on this forum. But, speaking strictly for myself, that's a ridiculous notion.

So, again, the name will have to be changed as the beliefs here do not represent Messianic Judaism, and to ensure Messianic Jews don't come here and speak what they believe, which many get very upset about, means the name must be changed.

Would you care to show me the portion of the MJAA or UMJC SoFs that purportedly contradict the full inclusion and integration of Gentiles into a Messianic Jewish community, with both rights and responsibilities appropriate to ALL members of the Body?

Here's what I find on the current MJAA website, under their definition of "Messianic Judaism":

MJAA: Statement of Faith
As of 3/9/2012

We observe and celebrate the Jewish Holy Days given by God to Israel, with their fulfillment in and through the Messiah Yeshua.

We believe that true "Biblical Judaism," the faith of first century believers, which we seek to practice, acknowledges the continuity of faith in the one true God, revealed throughout the Scriptures, and ultimately manifested in God's Son, Yeshua the Messiah.

We believe that salvation has always been "by faith," and that works of law, or righteous acts, have never saved anyone (Genesis 15:6; Romans 2-6; Ephesians 2:8-9; Hebrews 11:6, 39).

We acknowledge that the New Covenant body of believers is composed of both Jews and Gentiles who have received Yeshua the Messiah as the Promised Redeemer. The "middle wall of partition" has been broken down and now we worship the God of Israel together (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:13-14).

I don't know... that sure doesn't sound like it is trying to set Gentiles outside the camp of the Torah.

The only thing I find disappointing about this document is how little it asks of even Jews, saying that all they do is observe the Levitical Holy Days. REALLY??? That's all the MJAA does that is distinctive from any other Christian organization? I'd like to think there is more.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I must ask: I thought Torah was to be our foundation and standard?

Well not necessarily per se. The essence of the purpose of Messianic Judaism isn't Torah but to proclaim the One who Moses in the law and the prophets did write.

I would consider myself in the middle of most Messianics here. Or at least try to be.

 

[anisavta]

Oh it's a doozy!

My mission is not to create strife but to end it. Long before I joined this group, strife already existed. I was not aware of this when I joined, but those who subscribe to One Law object to what I believe as a Messianic Jew.

Darlin' like I've said, I've been here for a few years and yes we've had strife, but it was usually caused by lone rangers who come in with an agenda and stir the pot.
Not long ago we went through a "Paul - the scorge of the Kingdom" period. As always happens, we all polarized and finally after a few scrapes and bruses, the threads were shut down, everyone's feathers unruffled and we got back to the business of business as usual. Now this One Law mashugana. It only takes one or two to create the dust. Since it's such a hot topic, and you see that not everyone agrees with you, maybe it should be moved to General Theology where you can really take on the big guns.
I think we're all ready to move on.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Qnts and/or whoever,

I was interested in the early statement of faith by HCAA, which came to be MJAA. I've not been able to find such so far.

Any good help would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

Found one resource here that was very in-depth..and for others:

• "The Messianic Jew
• The Messianic Jewish Movement
• The History of Jewish Christianity
• "Chapter 20: The Rise of Messianic Judaism
• MESSIANIC JEWISH HISTORY by Mottel Baleston
• Ernest Lloyd - International Hebrew Christian | HaDavar
• HEBRLN CHRISTIAN CONFERENCE or THE INTERNATIONAL ...
• The image of the Judaeo-Christians in ancient Jewish and Christian literature
• Jesus Christ in world history: his presence and representation in ... - Page 242
• "A History of the 20th Century Movement in America of "Jewish Believers" in "Yeshua Ha Mashiach" (Jesus Christ)
• "The London Society for Promoting Christianity Amongst the Jews (extract from the Report of the Committee). With Dr. Buchanan’s Speech, as to the State of the Jews in the East".

Some of the resources included the actual pamphlets they used in the meetings during the 1920-30s era. Hope it helps...

 

[aniello]

Found one resource here that was very in-depth..and for others:

• "The Messianic Jew
• The Messianic Jewish Movement
• The History of Jewish Christianity
• "Chapter 20: The Rise of Messianic Judaism
• MESSIANIC JEWISH HISTORY by Mottel Baleston
• Ernest Lloyd - International Hebrew Christian | HaDavar
• The image of the Judaeo-Christians in ancient Jewish and Christian literature
• HEBRLN CHRISTIAN CONFERENCE or THE INTERNATIONAL ...
• Jesus Christ in world history: his presence and representation in ... - Page 242
• "A History of the 20th Century Movement in America of "Jewish Believers" in "Yeshua Ha Mashiach" (Jesus Christ)
• "The London Society for Promoting Christianity Amongst the Jews (extract from the Report of the Committee). With Dr. Buchanan’s Speech, as to the State of the Jews in the East".

Some of the resources included the actual pamphlets they used in the meetings during the 1920-30s era. Hope it helps...

Ah, thank you. Will take time to peruse all this. Looking for, of course, what the HCAA adhered to or not, as they become MJAA later in the 197?s.

Back to hearing on child custody this PM.

ciaou

 

[mishkan]

Awesome list. I've read most of these, but not all. I'll be busy this weekend.

As I see it, most, if not all, of these reflect the early priorities of Christian evangelistic organizations.

Since the mid-1980's, there has been a new thing in progress... MJ becoming not only a Christian missionary ideal, but a lifestyle and communal ideal. One need not be exclusive of the other, but for some reason, the two have not mixed well, resulting in polarized positions, rather than seeing each other as complementary.

One may choose to remain in the original camp, but for those who do, I prefer to use the term that was appropriate when that was the only available option--Hebrew Christianity. For those who have continued along the trajectory into the modern community concept, there is "Messianic", "Messianic Jew" or "Messianic Gentile", as appropriate.

I believe this distinction is what lies at the heart of some of the arguments over terminology.

Shabbat Shalom, y'all!

Found one resource here that was very in-depth..and for others:

• "The Messianic Jew
• The Messianic Jewish Movement
• The History of Jewish Christianity
• "Chapter 20: The Rise of Messianic Judaism
• MESSIANIC JEWISH HISTORY by Mottel Baleston
• Ernest Lloyd - International Hebrew Christian | HaDavar
• The image of the Judaeo-Christians in ancient Jewish and Christian literature
• HEBRLN CHRISTIAN CONFERENCE or THE INTERNATIONAL ...
• Jesus Christ in world history: his presence and representation in ... - Page 242
• "A History of the 20th Century Movement in America of "Jewish Believers" in "Yeshua Ha Mashiach" (Jesus Christ)
• "The London Society for Promoting Christianity Amongst the Jews (extract from the Report of the Committee). With Dr. Buchanan’s Speech, as to the State of the Jews in the East".

Some of the resources included the actual pamphlets they used in the meetings during the 1920-30s era. Hope it helps...

 

[Avodat]

You could always talk to the mods directly...but on trying to change the forum, that was something which was done before. You can always talk to folks such as Heber (who long left), ContraMundum, Tishri, Shimshon (and his wife as well) and many other. The main people choose to do is do their thing and keep on going regardless of what others say (if they feel that they are already in line with the SOF since nothing can really be said to them if others complain....for what matters is whether the SOF is adhered to).

Many times, the rhetoric can switch since it has equally been said that others not agreeing with people who disagree with the MJAA and the SOF are NOT to be allowed to share or discuss---and it has been claimed just as often that those trying to keep others from discussing have the "right" to do so since they feel that MJism (from their perspective is being misrepresented). It's why the nature of the forums can be interesting....for the stance of "Diversity should not be SUPPRESSED!!!" can be used by splinter groups when they feel they're not being allowed to share by others in mainstream, but that same stance can be dismissed when others not for splinter groups/divergent thought share their stances and are told "YOU NEED to think like us to be legitimate!!!" For examples, one can go here , here or here/here and here.

Politics...

If there's gonna be diversity championed, then diversity should be championed---and all should agree that MJism is a Mosaic with differing levels/expressions. However, if it's going to be the case that one side/group will always try to suppress anyone and everyone disagreeing with them through a myriad of means, then all talk of "diversity" and discussion on being offended at others trying to tell people what to do needs to stop. For not many would come close to being innocent on that.

Are you in touch with him (or is anyone else)?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Are you in touch with him (or is anyone else)?

Contra's about the only one I'm aware of who really was in extensive dialouge with him offline. And he did mention a number of times where he fellowshipped at.

 

[anisavta]

If anything is to be accomplished it must be done through admin. As far as the "oldies" here, we've seen it all and watched the agendas rise and fall.
Yedida seems to keep connected with everyone. She may have a way to contact Heber. I know he got tired of the Johnny One Notes coming in to disrupt and said bye bye. But he's done that before and then he's come back when he misses us too much.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Ah, thank you. Will take time to peruse all this. Looking for, of course, what the HCAA adhered to or not, as they become MJAA later in the 197?s.

From what I was able to find out, the material from the HCAA in the 1970s era did not seem to alter much from what they already had in place during the previous decades. Alot of the direct material that was stated in the 1970s may not be as available since the MJAA which it changed into may've started anew from the point they changed the name, making the HCAA materials of previous times in need of no further updating. It seems to be the case that the HCAA material that would serve as a reference point for a Statement of Purpose was already incapsulated in what was said before prior to the new MJAA coming into being.

May have to take another trip to the Library and see if I can find anything concerning book sources rather than online material...but if I come across anything, I'll try to bring it up for review. Shalom...

 

[Lulav]

Why is it Qnts that you answer everyone else's posts but mine?

 

[Yahudim]

Why is it Qnts that you answer everyone else's posts but mine?

Shalom Lulav,

This is from her last post:

Shalom,

I do not have time to respond as it is I have to prepare for Shabbat. I'll try to remember to get back to this later.

God bless.

I only just woke up off the sofa from the Sabbath meal sleepies. Time for beddie-bye. G'Night!

 

[Avodat]

Why is it Qnts that you answer everyone else's posts but mine?

Relax, mine are ignored as well!

 

[Avodat]

Contra's about the only one I'm aware of who really was in extensive dialouge with him offline. And he did mention a number of times where he fellowshipped at.

Just wondered as you mentioned Q getting in touch with him. But no problem, I just thought you may have known that he was back / coming back.

 

[aniello]

Did a little rummaging around and found the following:

Early congregations
The first identifiable congregation made up exclusively of Jews who had converted to Christianity was established in the United Kingdom in 1813;[4] a group of 41 Jewish Christians established an association called "Beni Abraham", and started meeting at Jews' Chapel in London for prayers Friday night and Sunday morning;[5] In 1885, the first Hebrew Christian church was established in New York.[6] In the 1890s, immigrant Jews who converted to Christianity established the "Hope of Israel" mission on New York’s Lower East Side while retaining Jewish rites and customs.[7] In 1895, Hope of Israel's Our Hope magazine carried the subtitle “A Monthly Devoted to the Study of Prophecy and to Messianic Judaism.” Hope of Israel was controversial: other missionary groups accused its members of being Judaizers, and one of the two editors of Our Hope magazine, Arno C. Gaebelein, eventually repudiated his views, and, as a result, was able to become a leader in the mainstream Christian evangelical movement.[8] In 1915, when the Hebrew Christian Alliance of American (HCAA) was founded, it "consistently assuaged the fears of fundamentalist Christians by emphasizing that it is not a separate denomination but only an evangelistic arm of the evangelical church", and insisted that it would be free of these Judaizing practices "now and forever".[9] In the 1940s and 50s, missionaries in Israel adopted the term meshichyim ("Messianic") to counter negative connotations of the word nozrim ("Christians").[10]

Movement Established
The Hebrew Christian Alliance was formed in Britain in 1860.
The Hebrew Christian Alliance of American (HCAA) was founded in 1915, in part to emphasize to fundamentalist Christians that while it used Jewish forms, it was a cooperating evangelistic arm of the evangelical church.
In 1975, the HCAA changed its name to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America.

This seems confusing as it seems thoroughly Church based, not very Jewish save for some Jews who seem to be leaving Judaism behind.

Seems I’m remembering something in 1959, we(myself and another Jewish law student) were going to the new Kol Emeth(Conservative) Shul when we were first led to belief in Y’shua/Jesus as our promised Moschiach, by some older believing men(some in their 70s) in our Congregation and affiliation ideas came up. About the only one I recall that was mentioned was the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America, which turns out to be the MJAA nowadays. The elders did not go for it, I have tried to remember why. I have two friends that were my colleagues back then who are still alive, perhaps I can reach them after Shabbat and possibly they’ll remember better than I. I’ll continue to try to remember, perhaps the memory will return. Some recollective picture keeps bouncing around in my old brain, just haven’t quite centered on it. I will pray HaShem for supply.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

From what I was able to find out, the material from the HCAA in the 1970s era did not seem to alter much from what they already had in place during the previous decades. Alot of the direct material that was stated in the 1970s may not be as available since the MJAA which it changed into may've started anew from the point they changed the name, making the HCAA materials of previous times in need of no further updating. It seems to be the case that the HCAA material that would serve as a reference point for a Statement of Purpose was already incapsulated in what was said before prior to the new MJAA coming into being.

May have to take another trip to the Library and see if I can find anything concerning book sources rather than online material...but if I come across anything, I'll try to bring it up for review. Shalom...

From my experience and I'm not saying this is a good thing or bad thing, is that MJAA is pretty much in line with Christian doctrine. But my experience is that MJAA is a movement not a denomination with it's main focus on Yeshua as the 'One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write' and this movement helping in the 'ushering in of the Messiah' in a rivival type focus. In other words Jewish revival. My experience has been and again I'm not putting any insight of whether it's good or bad is the focus isn't on Torah observance or no Torah observance as there isn't much teaching in regards to this. Doesn't mean that there isn't traditional Jewish liturgy and the like. From talking to a fellow believer who was involved in the UMJC congregation it seems that the focus between the 2 organizations are somewhat different. From experience MJAA is totally committed to the restoration of Israel, focused on end times. Yes Jewish liturgy is part of worship but it's not the main focus. It's focused on Yeshua establishing His reign and the New Covenant in it's completeness.

In closing I would say similar to Christianity in a lot of ways in their focus and again I'm not here to input if it's good or bad just relating my experience. MJAA also is very church friendly.

The topic has come up about one law. I'm pretty sure MJAA isn't really concerned about this because it's not their focus to begin with. This is my opinion based on experience. I've read some stuff in UMJC conferences and such concerning this but I'm almost pretty sure this wouldn't be an issue with MJAA because it's not the focus to begin with. It seems you have those from UMJC that are more outspoken about one law? A lot of Dr Brown material in real messiah was to UMJC conferances addressing rabbinical traditions in Messianic Judaism. I'm not here to pit one organization from another(UMJC/MJAA).

Now the essence of the discussion could be non Jewish integration and/or non Jewish membership. Both organizations whether more outspoken or not have separate memberships per se. In MJAA, one being a Jewish member and one being an honored associate member. From my experience this is how far MJAA is outspoken about it. It seems like UMJC has been more outspoken in public such as FFOZ as an example. In my experience I would find it hard to believe that MJAA leadership would be outspoken about this because of the focus. But I will admit that having 2 different kinds of membership is detrimental to 'One New Man'.

I don't know the 'ins and outs'. A fellow believer has said the UMJC doesn't allow non Jewish leadership and/or is against it per se. In regards to MJAA I'd be curious as I said I don't know what goes on in the back door. I talked to the head of CTMOC who was head of MJAA in Canada I think. From talking to him it seemed like the split was do to non Jews in relation to leadership roles. If I remember correctly it was also said that CTMOC believes in Torah observance for both Jew and non Jew in the body. Now since he was most likely involved behind the scenes it's possible this was a conclusion among leadership, I don't know. But I also know from experience that MJAA isn't Torah focused as the likes of CTMOC from doing some research online etc. So since I'm a stickler for looking at both sides before I make a conclusion it's possible that the creation/s of groups is a result of being more Torah observant and to focus on that either as primary or finding their own balance between Torah observance and the Good News.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Seems like the OP question was perfectly intelligible. I don’t know why it required a five-post response the size of a book that didn’t answer it and just offered a different statement.

To answer.... No, I do not agree with the MJAA statement. I’m not Messianic.

I think it would have been better to have this as a poll thread IMHO.

Anywho, I also am not MJ, just a plain ole Christ-ian, so I will just lurk here

.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Did a little rummaging around and found the following:

Early congregations
The first identifiable congregation made up exclusively of Jews who had converted to Christianity was established in the United Kingdom in 1813;[4] a group of 41 Jewish Christians established an association called "Beni Abraham", and started meeting at Jews' Chapel in London for prayers Friday night and Sunday morning;[5] In 1885, the first Hebrew Christian church was established in New York.[6] In the 1890s, immigrant Jews who converted to Christianity established the "Hope of Israel" mission on New York’s Lower East Side while retaining Jewish rites and customs.[7] In 1895, Hope of Israel's Our Hope magazine carried the subtitle “A Monthly Devoted to the Study of Prophecy and to Messianic Judaism.” Hope of Israel was controversial: other missionary groups accused its members of being Judaizers, and one of the two editors of Our Hope magazine, Arno C. Gaebelein, eventually repudiated his views, and, as a result, was able to become a leader in the mainstream Christian evangelical movement.[8] In 1915, when the Hebrew Christian Alliance of American (HCAA) was founded, it "consistently assuaged the fears of fundamentalist Christians by emphasizing that it is not a separate denomination but only an evangelistic arm of the evangelical church", and insisted that it would be free of these Judaizing practices "now and forever".[9] In the 1940s and 50s, missionaries in Israel adopted the term meshichyim ("Messianic") to counter negative connotations of the word nozrim ("Christians").[10]

Movement Established
The Hebrew Christian Alliance was formed in Britain in 1860.
The Hebrew Christian Alliance of American (HCAA) was founded in 1915, in part to emphasize to fundamentalist Christians that while it used Jewish forms, it was a cooperating evangelistic arm of the evangelical church.
In 1975, the HCAA changed its name to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America.

Something that came to my mind was that in many ways, regardless of where I may have disagreements with groups like the HCAA, many of them died during the Holocaust...and because of the work/advocacy they did as well as those who were British Zionists during the 1920-40s era, what came about was the formation of the Israeli State in its formation. To me, it'd seem odd for anyone to denoucne them/claim anything "Christian" wasn't Jewish and yet the very thing people demand for others to support/pray for and focus upon was largely the work of Christians getting it established through what they deemed to be the hand of God.

This seems confusing as it seems thoroughly Church based, not very Jewish save for some Jews who seem to be leaving Judaism behind.

To me, what it appeared to be was simply the attempt to not be for what was occurring in Judaism when there was both denial that Christ was Messiah and vehement denouncement of him/anyone (Jewish or not) following Him as hating the Torah and Biblical culture. For many of the meetings discussed what "Judaizing" meant in very specific terms when it came to focusing upon what occurred in Acts 15.

Seems I’m remembering something in 1959, we(myself and another Jewish law student) were going to the new Kol Emeth(Conservative) Shul when we were first led to belief in Y’shua/Jesus as our promised Moschiach, by some older believing men(some in their 70s) in our Congregation and affiliation ideas came up. About the only one I recall that was mentioned was the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America, which turns out to be the MJAA nowadays. The elders did not go for it, I have tried to remember why. I have two friends that were my colleagues back then who are still alive, perhaps I can reach them after Shabbat and possibly they’ll remember better than I. I’ll continue to try to remember, perhaps the memory will return. Some recollective picture keeps bouncing around in my old brain, just haven’t quite centered on it. I will pray HaShem for supply

Would love to hear sometime....

 

[Avodat]

Strangely enough, for a good history of the Messianic Faith (but called Christian Zionism) read the first chapter of Steven Sizer's book: Christian Zionism. The chapter is headed: The Historical roots of Christian Zionism. Do not read past that chapter because the rest of the book is appalling (all about RT and anti Israel) but his research into the roots gathers a lot of information.

For historical purposes, Frunctenbaum's book: Hebrew Christianity - its theology, history and philosophy is another good resource for our movement's beginnings.