Messianic Jewboy
Senior Veteran
- Dec 17, 2006
- 3,889
- 165
- 58
- Faith
- Messianic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Democrat
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The Hebrew Christian Alliance of American (HCAA) was founded in 1915, in part to emphasize to fundamentalist Christians that while it used Jewish forms, it was a cooperating evangelistic arm of the evangelical church.
I have been repeatedly posting the statements of faith and the core values, or history of the Two largest Messianic Judaism organisations, only to find that it appears that many people on here who use the Messianic icon actually disagree with these organizations. Recently, someone said they disagree, and they are going to claim the name 'Messianic Judaism' and think the MJAA should call itself something different, for instance, Grace only Christians.
So, I am asking, any and all participants on the forum, do you agree with the following statement from this forum..
The Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose
The Messianic Community - a discussion and fellowship forum for all Messianic members.
A few things to know about Messianic Believers: *we are using the MJAA The Messianic Jewish Identity (MJAA) here to provide further explaination.
- Main Stream Messianic Judaism affirms the Trinitarian nature of God-*The "Messianic Jewish identity" is wholly dependent on the person of Yeshua: God Himself come to earth to reconcile the Jewish people and all nations to Himself.
- Messianic Believers are Jews and Gentiles who have embraced Yeshua as the Messiah of Israel (Redeemer of the World)-*The foundation of Messianic Judaism is each individual's personal relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Messiah Yeshua.
- Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.
- Messianic Believers incorporate, affirm, and preserve the Jewish identity, Jewish customs, and Jewish style of worship, as they seek to be a light to the Jew first, then to the Nations.- *A Messianic Jew does not loose their Jewish identity when they choose to put their faith in the Jewish Messiah. Messianic Jews seek to embrace their Jewishness by meeting in congregational communities with other Jewish believers and by maintaining a Biblically Jewish expression of their faith. If Yeshua really is the Jewish Messiah of whom all the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke, then it is the most Jewish thing in the world to follow Him!
To learn more about what Messianics believe please see the MJAA and the UMJC.
- Messianic Believers share in a call to be a witness of the Grace and Love and Salvation Yeshua brings, but discourage counter missionary activity in their midst [Acts 20:28-30]- *Yeshua declared that no-one can comes to the Father - the God of Israel! - except through Him (John 14:6). Messianic Jews seek to share this way, this truth, and this life with their Jewish brothers and sisters.
Thanks Tal, I did see that. Hope you had a restful day!Shalom Lulav,
This is from her last post:I only just woke up off the sofa from the Sabbath meal sleepies. Time for beddie-bye. G'Night!
There was nothing in my post that even intimated that I wasn't relaxed so please don't patronize me, she did answer at least one of yours as can be seen above.Relax, mine are ignored as well!
Well, a result of more digging around, this article having been written in 1982, if I'm recalling acurately.
It has to do with comparatively recent Messianic Jewish history which includes an apparent evolutionary progression of HCAA(1915) into MJAA(1975) form, not without a certain degree of dispute, so it would seem.
So, here it is:
[SIZE=+0]The Messianic Jewish Congregational Movement[/SIZE]
So, in legal-beagle fashion, or being a cop-like snoop, here's some material. I'll leave it up to y'all to do whatever you all will do and that perhaps with other information thrash out something that in the end will be healing and unifying in Our L-RD Y'ehua.
But I wonder.
Darn! And I thought I invented the term "MJ Congregational Movement! Well, actually, I called it the "MJ Synagogue Movement". But same idea.Well, a result of more digging around, this article having been written in 1982, if I'm recalling acurately.
It has to do with comparatively recent Messianic Jewish history which includes an apparent evolutionary progression of HCAA(1915) into MJAA(1975) form, not without a certain degree of dispute, so it would seem.
So, here it is:
[SIZE=-0]The Messianic Jewish Congregational Movement[/SIZE]
So, in legal-beagle fashion, or being a cop-like snoop, here's some material. I'll leave it up to y'all to do whatever you all will do and that perhaps with other information thrash out something that in the end will be healing and unifying in Our L-RD Y'ehua.
But I wonder.
Well, a result of more digging around, this article having been written in 1982, if I'm recalling acurately.
It has to do with comparatively recent Messianic Jewish history which includes an apparent evolutionary progression of HCAA(1915) into MJAA(1975) form, not without a certain degree of dispute, so it would seem.
So, here it is:
[SIZE=+0]The Messianic Jewish Congregational Movement[/SIZE]
So, in legal-beagle fashion, or being a cop-like snoop, here's some material. I'll leave it up to y'all to do whatever you all will do and that perhaps with other information thrash out something that in the end will be healing and unifying in Our L-RD Y'ehua.
But I wonder.
Great article, awareness is very important in understanding much of these dilemmas.
Jewish Revival is indeed one of the best descriptions of it...especially considering others apart of the movement and the era that the event occurred in (if recalling the 60s/70s era movement called the Jesus People movement and the many prophetic declarations done by others within it like Jewish musician Keith Green...especially in regards to Jewish believers coming in/becoming saved).From my experience and I'm not saying this is a good thing or bad thing, is that MJAA is pretty much in line with Christian doctrine. But my experience is that MJAA is a movement not a denomination with it's main focus on Yeshua as the 'One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write' and this movement helping in the 'ushering in of the Messiah' in a rivival type focus. In other words Jewish revival. .
Indeed, they were never focused on Torah Observance exclusively. Didn't mean that not focusing extensively on it was a bad thing to not be exclusively focused on it...for their goal was simply about seeing Jewish believers become saved/connected to Yeshua. Torah Observance was never their ultimate goal.My experience has been and again I'm not putting any insight of whether it's good or bad is the focus isn't on Torah observance or no Torah observance as there isn't much teaching in regards to this.
I agree..Doesn't mean that there isn't traditional Jewish liturgy and the like.
From talking to a fellow believer who was involved in the UMJC congregation it seems that the focus between the 2 organizations are somewhat different. From experience MJAA is totally committed to the restoration of Israel, focused on end times. Yes Jewish liturgy is part of worship but it's not the main focus. It's focused on Yeshua establishing His reign and the New Covenant in it's completeness.
As they never saw the Church as something Jewish believers could not be apart of nor did they see it as something counter to the culture of the Bible and remiscient of what Jewish believers experienced in Acts, they were naturally not against all things deemed "CHRISTIAN" or "Church." For many Churches were already places of refuge for Jews who were either harrassed by the unsaved in Jewish communities for believing in Messiah...or they were harrassed simply for being Jewish in other places. That other churches sadly were anti-semitic does not mean that all of them were against Jews having significant influence/leadership, just as it's not the case that all MJish fellowships today that literally despise anything Gentile (reverse racism) and feel that you have to treat Gentiles as inferior in order to love Jews does not mean that all MJish fellowships are automatically meant to be like that.In closing I would say similar to Christianity in a lot of ways in their focus and again I'm not here to input if it's good or bad just relating my experience. MJAA also is very church friendly.
Love Dr.Michael Brown...but on the One Law aspect, there has been alot of discussion on that in the camp and there are variations of it. The variations they support (to my knowledge) are the ones that are focused upon how Jew/Gentile are united together under the Lord and yet within that the Torah did have distinctions and so did the early church. For myself, I'm of the mindset that not all versions of ONE Law (just as it is with Two House) are to automatically be resisted as a negative. In example, with One Law, Dr.Michael Brown once came to Atlanta and visited the ministry of Ryan Lambert who is the leader of a Messianic Jewish fellowship--and he shared many wonderful points in regards to his own variation/view of One Law which Dr.Brown agreed with. For more, one can go here to the main page of Lambert's fellowship and look here, if looking up the sermon entitled "Should Christians Keep the Torah? (Delivered at The Vineyard – Senoia, GA.)" One can also go to Dr.Brown's organization and look up the interview between the two of them entitled Interview with Ryan Lambert on Jewish Ministry in Israel and AmericaThe topic has come up about one law. I'm pretty sure MJAA isn't really concerned about this because it's not their focus to begin with. This is my opinion based on experience. I've read some stuff in UMJC conferences and such concerning this but I'm almost pretty sure this wouldn't be an issue with MJAA because it's not the focus to begin with. It seems you have those from UMJC that are more outspoken about one law? A lot of Dr Brown material in real messiah was to UMJC conferances addressing rabbinical traditions in Messianic Judaism. I'm not here to pit one organization from another(UMJC/MJAA).
“One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you” (Exodus 12:49). In context, it is clear that this “one law” does not apply to every stranger within Israel. Torah instructs that the native born must eat the Passover, but the stranger must not eat it, unless he is circumcised. Only
through circumcision can he be incorporated into the people of Israel and their Torah. Without it, he remains an outsider and is banned from the Passover (Ex. 12:38, 43-48).
In Leviticus 24:22, both the alien and the native Israelite are under the same prohibition against murder and both are to suffer the same penalty. Numbers 15:16 instructs an alien who decides to bring a free will offering to offer it in the same way as the native born. However, there is no requirement for him to bring a free will offering. Other mandated offerings are not assigned to the alien.
The issue is not whether Gentiles should or must become Jews to attain full status in the Body of Messiah. All Messianic Jews agree this issue was settled by the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem in C.E. 49 (Acts 15). Believers from among the nations were not required to accept the yoke of the Torah, but only the basic biblical principles referred to as the Seven Laws of Noah in the rabbinic literature.
Gentiles who place their faith in Yeshua, are "grafted into" the Jewish olive tree of faith (Rom. 11:17-25) becoming spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham (Gal. 3:28-29).
Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Not grafted into Yisrael, becasue we are other branches. Gentiles are Abraham's offspring, according to THE OATH, not the Torah given 430 yrs later.
Yisrael (Jews) and the Nations (Gentiles) are branches of the tree of life through faith. A gentile when they come to faith in Messiah is not changed into a Jewish branch. They are grafted along side of natural (Jewish) branches in the tree of life. The MJAA most assuradly identifies with this.
Simply because the MJAA have to deal with one law heresy does not mean they condone it. I think they are very sensitive not to do what FFOZ just did to their congregants in allowing the enemy to divide the sheep. One, I imagine they do not want to loose their money base, or following. So they kindly 'deal' with the issue instead of stand against it.
Russ Resnik is awesome! President of the UMJC and personal friends to the wandering Goy.
Both the UMJC and the MJAA clearly identify gentiles as included but NOT obligated to observe Torah as Jews. There is no organization outside of FFOZ that is promoting this theology. And it is driven by the gentiles being convinced they are part of (physical) Yisrael.
If you look and read the statement of faiths in both the MJAA and the UMJC, the established organizations of the movement you will see they were formed by Jews who found faith in Messiah. A Jewish movement for a Jewish revival.
Can definately understand where you're coming from..Now the essence of the discussion could be non Jewish integration and/or non Jewish membership. Both organizations whether more outspoken or not have separate memberships per se. In MJAA, one being a Jewish member and one being an honored associate member. From my experience this is how far MJAA is outspoken about it. It seems like UMJC has been more outspoken in public such as FFOZ as an example. In my experience I would find it hard to believe that MJAA leadership would be outspoken about this because of the focus. But I will admit that having 2 different kinds of membership is detrimental to 'One New Man'.
Leadership is generally what has been a primary battle from what I've also heard, in regards to Gentiles not being allowed to be leaders in many circles associated with MJAA.I don't know the 'ins and outs'. A fellow believer has said the UMJC doesn't allow non Jewish leadership and/or is against it per se. In regards to MJAA I'd be curious as I said I don't know what goes on in the back door. I talked to the head of CTMOC who was head of MJAA in Canada I think. From talking to him it seemed like the split was do to non Jews in relation to leadership roles.
All good possibilities...If I remember correctly it was also said that CTMOC believes in Torah observance for both Jew and non Jew in the body. Now since he was most likely involved behind the scenes it's possible this was a conclusion among leadership, I don't know. But I also know from experience that MJAA isn't Torah focused as the likes of CTMOC from doing some research online etc. So since I'm a stickler for looking at both sides before I make a conclusion it's possible that the creation/s of groups is a result of being more Torah observant and to focus on that either as primary or finding their own balance between Torah observance and the Good News
Frunctenbaum's works on Hebrew Christianity, including his very amazing book which covered alot of ground, are very beneficial in clarifying issues (IMHO). As my Messianic Fellowship has had him come speak at our conferences, we're very close in association with him. Will now have to add the book to the list of ministry resources utilized in addition to the ones I have already (here, here, here, etc)...Strangely enough, for a good history of the Messianic Faith (but called Christian Zionism) read the first chapter of Steven Sizer's book: Christian Zionism. The chapter is headed: The Historical roots of Christian Zionism. Do not read past that chapter because the rest of the book is appalling (all about RT and anti Israel) but his research into the roots gathers a lot of information.
For historical purposes, Frunctenbaum's book: Hebrew Christianity - its theology, history and philosophy is another good resource for our movement's beginnings.
Easy G (G2) said:According to an Official Paper of the UMJC
The issue is not whether Gentiles should or must become Jews to attain full status in the Body of Messiah. All Messianic Jews agree this issue was settled by the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem in C.E. 49 (Acts 15). Believers from among the nations were not required to accept the yoke of the Torah, but only the basic biblical principles referred to as the Seven Laws of Noah in the rabbinic literature.
As apart of the MJAA statement of faith:
Gentiles who place their faith in Yeshua, are "grafted into" the Jewish olive tree of faith (Rom. 11:17-25) becoming spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham (Gal. 3:28-29).
Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Easy G (G2 said:I'm aware of responses given to the issue of One-Law, such as those by Tim Hegg. But I do not agree with them. Groups that believed in "One Law" have always been around, appearing and disappearing all down through history. But they've never tried to lay claim to being Messianic Judaism until the MJ movement started really going somewhere. And it can seem odd that many wish to have all ofthe benefits of being part of a larger movement suddenly once there's prominence....and I have serious issue with those groups when/if they seek to denounce all others not agreeing with them as not being truly "Messianic Jewish" and then trying to kick others out, as the OP discussion intent was on.
To mpossof:
My friend wanted to know if he should be keeping kosher etc as a non Jew, he was confused.
If your friend has a call to follow kosher as a way of santification, he should be encouraged.
Isn't Yeshua a Messianic Jew. If the identification with the Jewishness of our Mashiach goes so far to ask for circumcision, it should be granted to him, not unde the covenant of Moshe but under the covenant of Yeshua. So he becomes an adoptive son of the family of Yeshua, a ben Jesse. This naturalization as Messianic should proceed according to an orderly ceremony to protect a Jewish Messianic identity, to maintain a sizable proportion of Messianic Jews in a Messianic Congregation, especially if many Gentiles are called to Messianism. However, one should not call it a conversion, because if Gentiles followers of a Pauline Church are under the covenant of Yeshua and are required to convert into Messianic Jewishness, this would deny their present covenant with Yeshua.
To mpossof:
This naturalization as Messianic should proceed according to an orderly ceremony to protect a Jewish Messianic identity, to maintain a sizable proportion of Messianic Jews in a Messianic Congregation, especially if many Gentiles are called to Messianism. However, one should not call it a conversion
I have been repeatedly posting the statements of faith and the core values, or history of the Two largest Messianic Judaism organisations, only to find that it appears that many people on here who use the Messianic icon actually disagree with these organizations. Recently, someone said they disagree, and they are going to claim the name 'Messianic Judaism' and think the MJAA should call itself something different, for instance, Grace only Christians.
So, I am asking, any and all participants on the forum, do you agree with the following statement from this forum..
The Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose
The Messianic Community - a discussion and fellowship forum for all Messianic members.
A few things to know about Messianic Believers: *we are using the MJAA The Messianic Jewish Identity (MJAA) here to provide further explaination.
- Main Stream Messianic Judaism affirms the Trinitarian nature of God-*The "Messianic Jewish identity" is wholly dependent on the person of Yeshua: God Himself come to earth to reconcile the Jewish people and all nations to Himself.
I would check this link out and see if you like it. It's like church without all the puffery!
Drcheekscogitations.blogspot. com
It's updated weekly, so make sure to save it to your favorites!
It's a dead link either within CF or outside of it. Is it relevant to this thread?
Wouldn't say the MJAA is silent about it as they did talk on it--but in comparision with the other topics they focus upon more extensively, it is far less on many levels.As we see the UMJC and MJAA have different views about Gentile 'integration'. UMJC is outspoken about Torah obervance. Where MJAA is silent not because they want to keep it under the bar but because it's not the focus to begin with. Not that one is better than the other.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?