The MJAA as a standard of Messianic Judaism

[mishkan]

My goodness no. This forum was created so that those who agree that Yeshua and Jews can co-exist, that Jews can believe in Messiah apart from the traditional Christian church have a place to discuss and fellowship. Where Gentiles can identify with their Jewish brothers and sisters and not be judged. It is not a platform for MJAA, UMJA, Chosen People or J4J.

To try to pin people down to which orginization they are affiliated with and then argue why they are wrong has never been the intent of this forum. Perhaps those who need such a forum should contact an admin and try to petition for subgroups within the greater MJ forum. IE - MJAA subgroup, J4J subgroup ...

This is suppose to be a safe place for Messianic Jews and Gentiles - however it is turning into a mine field of forced confrontations and threats of reports.

That deserves a BIIIIG thumbs up!

 

[Lulav]

I have been repeatedly posting the statements of faith and the core values,
So, I am asking, any and all participants on the forum, do you agree with the following statement from this forum..

May I ask why you felt the need to come to these forums and interrogate everyone here?


These forums have gone through many changes, and many SOF. Once upon a time and far far away, these forums were actually run by Messianics. After a few changes of ownership, that was no longer the case. We now have in all forums a sticky with a statement of purpose.

I'm sure you have read this, probably more than once.

This is the major heading

The Messianic Community - a discussion and fellowship forum for all Messianic members.

They only use the MJAA to provide an explanation as it was easier than writing up something themselves. It does not mean this is an MJAA forum, not at all. The UMJC is also listed, but only because these are the two largest groups.

I have been to many of the MJAA events and know that not all who attend or who are giving lectures even, would agree in totality with that statement.

Also what started out as the Hebrew Christian Alliance has gone through many changes. Originally fostered by gentile Churches, it came into its own, only to revert back and go to an extreme which is embarrassing for many.

 

[Yahudim]

My goodness no. This forum was created so that those who agree that Yeshua and Jews can co-exist, that Jews can believe in Messiah apart from the traditional Christian church have a place to discuss and fellowship. Where Gentiles can identify with their Jewish brothers and sisters and not be judged. It is not a platform for MJAA, UMJA, Chosen People or J4J.
To try to pin people down to which orginization they are affiliated with and then argue why they are wrong has never been the intent of this forum. Perhaps those who need such a forum should contact an admin and try to petition for subgroups within the greater MJ forum. IE - MJAA subgroup, J4J subgroup ...
This is suppose to be a safe place for Messianic Jews and Gentiles - however it is turning into a mine field of forced confrontations and threats of reports.

What she said!

 

[mishkan]

May I ask why you felt the need to come to these forums and interrogate everyone here?

Good question.

They only use the MJAA to provide an explanation as it was easier than writing up something themselves. It does not mean this is an MJAA forum, not at all. The UMJC is also listed, but only because these are the two largest groups.

That's what I would have expected.

I have been to many of the MJAA events and know that not all who attend or who are giving lectures even, would agree in totality with that statement.

Absolutely! Gee, I wonder if we've ever crossed paths? I go up for at least an evening or two every year.

Also what started out as the Hebrew Christian Alliance has gone through many changes. Originally fostered by gentile Churches, it came into its own, only to revert back and go to an extreme which is embarrassing for many.

You got that right! Thanks for summing that up so nicely.

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom All,

I have a confession to make...

I have been repeatedly posting the statements of faith and the core values, or history of the Two largest Messianic Judaism organisations, only to find that it appears that many people on here who use the Messianic icon actually disagree with these organizations. Recently, someone said they disagree, and they are going to claim the name 'Messianic Judaism' and think the MJAA should call itself something different, for instance, Grace only Christians.

*snip*​

I am the one that made the suggestion that 'her' organization change it's name. Actually I suggested, "Christian 'grace only' missionary outreach to the Jews." However, it was not a serious suggestion. Instead it was meant to illustrate the absurdity of her position that she would hold the shalom of this forum hostage until the Torah observant Messianics here either quit observing Torah or change the name of the Messianic Judaism forum to 'Hebrew Christian' or 'One Law'.

I really didn't think that you would take the suggestion seriously. So in this I apologize to you Sister Qnts2. I never really meant for you to have to change the name of any organization to which you are a member. Hope I didn't scare you or anything. Peace.

And for the record, I do believe that I am saved by grace, just not to the exclusion of obedience. Y'know, the whole faith without works thing... Hope that helps.

 

[Qnts2]

My goodness no. This forum was created so that those who agree that Yeshua and Jews can co-exist, that Jews can believe in Messiah apart from the traditional Christian church have a place to discuss and fellowship. Where Gentiles can identify with their Jewish brothers and sisters and not be judged. It is not a platform for MJAA, UMJA, Chosen People or J4J.
To try to pin people down to which orginization they are affiliated with and then argue why they are wrong has never been the intent of this forum. Perhaps those who need such a forum should contact an admin and try to petition for subgroups within the greater MJ forum. IE - MJAA subgroup, J4J subgroup ...
This is suppose to be a safe place for Messianic Jews and Gentiles - however it is turning into a mine field of forced confrontations and threats of reports.

Actually, the mine field is because it is not a safe place for Messianic Jews. I have been called many names on this forum because I am a Messianic Jew.

Those on this forum subscribe to One Law, which is not a belief in Messianic Judaism. And then apparently call Messianic Jews names. I have heard from many Messianic Jews. Real Messianic Jews. Who have been attacked on this forum.

I am trying to make it a safe place for Messianic Jews. But in order to do that, people here are going to have to agree with the MJAA. That is a very good definition of Messianic Judaism, as it is written to include all Messianic Jews. Unlike this forum, where the members want to exclude Messianic Jews who don't subscribe to One Law. Of course, Messianic Judaism does not subscribe to One Law, so very very few Messianic Jews will.

I have said, many times that the title of the forum has to change, as this group is attacking Messianic Jews, banning Messianic Jews, calling Messianic Jews Christians, etc etc etc, all on a forum representing itself as Messianic Judaism and with a SOF which all Messianic Jews would agree with.

 

[Qnts2]

Shalom All,

I have a confession to make...
I am the one that made the suggestion that 'her' organization change it's name. Actually I suggested, "Christian 'grace only' missionary outreach to the Jews." However, it was not a serious suggestion. Instead it was meant to illustrate the absurdity of her position that she would hold the shalom of this forum hostage until the Torah observant Messianics here either quit observing Torah or change the name of the Messianic Judaism forum to 'Hebrew Christian' or 'One Law'.

I really didn't think that you would take the suggestion seriously. So in this I apologize to you Sister Qnts2. I never really meant for you to have to change the name of any organization to which you are a member. Hope I didn't scare you or anything. Peace.

And for the record, I do believe that I am saved by grace, just not to the exclusion of obedience. Y'know, the whole faith without works thing... Hope that helps.

That does help some.

But, I have already written, Messianic Judaism has no problems with Gentiles who are called to keep the law. But, One Law teaches that Gentiles must keep the law.

That is a teaching contrary to Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism is not defined by law keeping. One Law is.

Since this is a Messianic Judaism forum, with the MJAA as the SOF, that is what it should be. But, for the most part, Messianic Jews are not welcome here because in reality this is a One Law forum.

 

[Avodat]

Actually, the mine field is because it is not a safe place for Messianic Jews. I have been called many names on this forum because I am a Messianic Jew.

Those on this forum subscribe to One Law, which is not a belief in Messianic Judaism. And then apparently call Messianic Jews names. I have heard from many Messianic Jews. Real Messianic Jews. Who have been attacked on this forum.

I am trying to make it a safe place for Messianic Jews. But in order to do that, people here are going to have to agree with the MJAA. That is a very good definition of Messianic Judaism, as it is written to include all Messianic Jews. Unlike this forum, where the members want to exclude Messianic Jews who don't subscribe to One Law. Of course, Messianic Judaism does not subscribe to One Law, so very very few Messianic Jews will.

I have said, many times that the title of the forum has to change, as this group is attacking Messianic Jews, banning Messianic Jews, calling Messianic Jews Christians, etc etc etc, all on a forum representing itself as Messianic Judaism and with a SOF which all Messianic Jews would agree with.

So now we know, it's all about what YOU want to do with OUR fora and WE must all change OUR views to suit YOURS or we shall be constantly attacked by YOU. The sheer arrogance of this is quite breathtaking. But there is a simple solution - you can depart from these fora. If you really find what we believe to be such a problem, then may I suggest that you return to your clones on the other fora you have mentioned; both we, and they, will be much happier, I am sure. If you remain here you are likely to be reported for violations:

Flaming and Harassment
● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.
● If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button. Do not report another member out of spite.
● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.
● Those who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them.
● Do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes, making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.
● Respect another member's request to cease personal contact.

 

[mishkan]

Since this is a Messianic Judaism forum, with the MJAA as the SOF

This would be perpetuating an error that has already been addressed. When setting up the forum, the management grabbed a convenient existing document to avoid re-inventing the wheel. It is not inviolable, and will probably be re-written as we go through these issues in discussion.

Do not think that this forum is in any way an official arm of the MJAA.

But, for the most part, Messianic Jews are not welcome here because in reality this is a One Law forum.

Jews of all types are quite welcome here. Your statement is both divisive and incorrect.

One Law, like Two House (though I shudder to put the two in the same sentence) are both reactions to the Jewish anti-Gentile prejudice that you have exhibited for us so well. One Law very much sits in the spectrum of Messianic thought, though it may not be agreeable to your dispensational theology.

If you would stop fighting, and arguing for a particular label, you would find that most of the people here are quite intelligent and reasonable, wishing only to serve Hashem according to their calling--within the context of Messianic Judaism... a Judaism that is Messianic.

 

[Qnts2]

So now we know, it's all about what YOU want to do with OUR fora and WE must all change OUR views to suit YOURS or we shall be constantly attacked by YOU. The sheer arrogance of this is quite breathtaking. But there is a simple solution - you can depart from these fora. If you really find what we believe to be such a problem, then may I suggest that you return to your clones on the other fora you have mentioned; both we, and they, will be much happier, I am sure. If you remain here you are likely to be reported for violations.

Actually, I came to this forum to participate with people who subscribed to Messianic Judaism. I expected to find some Messianic Jews and more Messianic Gentiles.

Instead what I found was mainly One Law Gentiles. Under the title of Messianic Judaism. Then I found the One Law Gentiles started to call me names, because I am a Messianic Jew who fully subscribes to the SOF of the board label Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism is different then One Law.

An even bigger surprise is getting contacted by non-One Law Messianic Gentiles and an even bigger surprise was getting contacted by Messianic Jews, wishing me blessings because they were attacked and abused on the forum labeled Messianic Judaism with the SOF of the MJAA.

No, it is not just about me. It is about the abuse and actual Anti-Messianic Jews stance the people on this forum have taken. The truth is, many of the people on the forum actually hate Messianic Jews, and what Messianic Jews believe and are trying to chase them off a forum which is labeled to be for Messianic Jews.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I am trying to make it a safe place for Messianic Jews. But in order to do that, people here are going to have to agree with the MJAA. That is a very good definition of Messianic Judaism, as it is written to include all Messianic Jews. Unlike this forum, where the members want to exclude Messianic Jews who don't subscribe to One Law. Of course, Messianic Judaism does not subscribe to One Law, so very very few Messianic Jews will.

I have said, many times that the title of the forum has to change, as this group is attacking Messianic Jews, banning Messianic Jews, calling Messianic Jews Christians, etc etc etc, all on a forum representing itself as Messianic Judaism and with a SOF which all Messianic Jews would agree with.

You could always talk to the mods directly...but on trying to change the forum, that was something which was done before. You can always talk to folks such as Heber (who long left), ContraMundum, Tishri, Shimshon (and his wife as well) and many other. The main people choose to do is do their thing and keep on going regardless of what others say (if they feel that they are already in line with the SOF since nothing can really be said to them if others complain....for what matters is whether the SOF is adhered to).

Many times, the rhetoric can switch since it has equally been said that others not agreeing with people who disagree with the MJAA and the SOF are NOT to be allowed to share or discuss---and it has been claimed just as often that those trying to keep others from discussing have the "right" to do so since they feel that MJism (from their perspective is being misrepresented). It's why the nature of the forums can be interesting....for the stance of "Diversity should not be SUPPRESSED!!!" can be used by splinter groups when they feel they're not being allowed to share by others in mainstream, but that same stance can be dismissed when others not for splinter groups/divergent thought share their stances and are told "YOU NEED to think like us to be legitimate!!!" For examples, one can go here , here or here/here and here.

Politics...

If there's gonna be diversity championed, then diversity should be championed---and all should agree that MJism is a Mosaic with differing levels/expressions. However, if it's going to be the case that one side/group will always try to suppress anyone and everyone disagreeing with them through a myriad of means, then all talk of "diversity" and discussion on being offended at others trying to tell people what to do needs to stop. For not many would come close to being innocent on that.

 

[Yahudim]

That does help some.

But, I have already written, Messianic Judaism has no problems with Gentiles who are called to keep the law. But, One Law teaches that Gentiles must keep the law.

That is a teaching contrary to Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism is not defined by law keeping. One Law is.

Since this is a Messianic Judaism forum, with the MJAA as the SOF, that is what it should be. But, for the most part, Messianic Jews are not welcome here because in reality this is a One Law forum.

Dear Sister, you don't go in with your guns blazing as a means of keeping the peace. Don't you think most of us here have heard all of this before? Most us us came out of a 'systematic theology' framework that we found wanting. Sister Qnts2, if you would like to see how we see the topic of grace, do a quick search. There are hundred of threads that have beat this topic to death. Or start one of your own. I'm sure you will have a lively discussion.

Our problem here is that we are gun shy. Regularly, people come in here trying to save us from ourselves and beating us over the head with 'grace'. OPs are hijacked, threads are derailed, posters are disrespected and confronted - again and again and again. It is very frustrating.

Look, the Torah observant among us don't have anything against you or any Jew, Messianic or otherwise. But turning every discussion into a 'grace only' soapbox is probably not the best way to win anyone over. Can we just agree that your theology and ours (boy do I feel weird talking for others on the board because we are so diverse) does not always agree and try and stay on topic?

That said, the largest MJ organizations are great. They are filled with wonderful people, almost all of which I can find something with which to disagree. But they all have many more things with which I do agree. Jeepers, just quit trying so hard. We aren't a bunch of monsters. We will change as we are led or are convinced.

I wish you well.

 

[etZion]

This would be perpetuating an error that has already been addressed. When setting up the forum, the management grabbed a convenient existing document to avoid re-inventing the wheel. It is not inviolable, and will probably be re-written as we go through these issues in discussion.

Do not think that this forum is in any way an official arm of the MJAA.


Jews of all types are quite welcome here. Your statement is both divisive and incorrect.

One Law, like Two House (though I shudder to put the two in the same sentence) are both reactions to the Jewish anti-Gentile prejudice that you have exhibited for us so well. One Law very much sits in the spectrum of Messianic thought, though it may not be agreeable to your dispensational theology.

If you would stop fighting, and arguing for a particular label, you would find that most of the people here are quite intelligent and reasonable, wishing only to serve Hashem according to their calling--within the context of Messianic Judaism... a Judaism that is Messianic.

Well said.

 

[Avodat]

Dear Sister, you don't go in with your guns blazing as a means of keeping the peace. Don't you think most of us here have heard all of this before? Most us us came out of a 'systematic theology' framework that we found wanting. Sister Qnts2, if you would like to see how we see the topic of grace, do a quick search. There are hundred of threads that have beat this topic to death. Or start one of your own. I'm sure you will have a lively discussion.

Our problem here is that we are gun shy. Regularly, people come in here trying to save us from ourselves and beating us over the head with 'grace'. OPs are hijacked, threads are derailed, posters are disrespected and confronted - again and again and again. It is very frustrating.

Look, the Torah observant among us don't have anything against you or any Jew, Messianic or otherwise. But turning every discussion into a 'grace only' soapbox is probably not the best way to win anyone over. Can we just agree that your theology and ours (boy do I feel weird talking for others on the board because we are so diverse) does not always agree and try and stay on topic?

That said, the largest MJ organizations are great. They are filled with wonderful people, almost all of which I can find something with which to disagree. But they all have many more things with which I do agree. Jeepers, just quit trying so hard. We aren't a bunch of monsters. We will change as we are led or are convinced.

I wish you well.

I've asked her about various theologies but my question has been ignored, as has the reminder.

 

[Qnts2]

This would be perpetuating an error that has already been addressed. When setting up the forum, the management grabbed a convenient existing document to avoid re-inventing the wheel. It is not inviolable, and will probably be re-written as we go through these issues in discussion.

Do not think that this forum is in any way an official arm of the MJAA.


Jews of all types are quite welcome here. Your statement is both divisive and incorrect.

One Law, like Two House (though I shudder to put the two in the same sentence) are both reactions to the Jewish anti-Gentile prejudice that you have exhibited for us so well. One Law very much sits in the spectrum of Messianic thought, though it may not be agreeable to your dispensational theology.

If you would stop fighting, and arguing for a particular label, you would find that most of the people here are quite intelligent and reasonable, wishing only to serve Hashem according to their calling--within the context of Messianic Judaism... a Judaism that is Messianic.

Messianic Judaism is not anti-Gentile, and Messianic Jews are not anti-Gentile. That is once again, an attack against Messianic Jews and Messianic Judaism.

One Law is rejected by Messianic Judaism as unscriptual, as it states Gentiles must keep the Mosaic law.

From the site posted in this thread from Hashivenu.

This is not to say that the Torah is irrelevant to Gentile Christians. Though it addresses a particular people and serves as its national constitution and customs, it also has universal implications. It points prophetically and typologically to the coming of Yeshua and the inclusion of the Gentiles in a covenant relationship with G-d. The specific ordinances of the Torah also reveal principles that apply beyond Israel's collective national life. Nevertheless, in all its particularity, the Torah is G-d's gift of love for one particular people, the people of Israel.

We in Hashivenu believe that this truth requires emphasis within the Messianic Jewish movement. Though Messianic Jews never cease to attack "replacement theology" (usually known outside our movement as "supersessionalism"), we are in danger of failing prey to a more subtle form of the same error. If, in all its ordinances, the Torah addresses Gentiles as much as it does Jews, if it defines the life of the Church as much as it defines the life of the Jewish people, then what remains of Israel's unique character and calling? In the past Jews who entered the church were compelled to surrender Jewish observance and identity and, as a result, they were assimilated and they and their children lost any sense of being Jews. If, contrary to the Apostolic decree and the Pauline injunction, Gentiles in the church are now encouraged to live just like Messianic Jews, will not the same result occur? And what of the Jews who do not believe in Yeshua? What need is there for them? G-d now has a people who are truly keeping his Torah-the Church! We are left with a Messianic Jewish movement without any Jews, a movement that loves Jewish things but not Jewish people.

It makes the statement, if Gentiles are required to live like Messianic Jews, we are left with a Messianic Jewish movement without any Jews. A movement that loves Jewish things but not Jewish people.

That is an astute statement, and illustrated by this board. That is what I am hearing from many. Are Messianic Jews welcome? Those who subscribe to the beliefs as listed by the MJAA and the UMJC? The two largest Messianic Judaism organizations? The answer is no. You are saying the SOF must be changed, as what I and other Messianic Jews believe are not the beliefs of the forum. But, the MJAA and the UMJC are the two largest Messianic Judaism organizations, so this board in reality wants to exclude the majority of Messianic Jews and does not really subscribe to Messianic Judaism.

If this board wants to be One Law/Hebrew roots, that is fine. Just change the name. Don't pretend to represent Messianic Judaism, and then call Messianic Jews names because they are not One Law.

 

[Yahudim]

I've asked her about various theologies but my question has been ignored, as has the reminder.

Oh golly! Did I miss one of your posts? I'm sorry if I ignored you. What did you ask me?

 

[Yahudim]

Nevermind Avodat, I found it!

There are many theologies in the world about MJism - loads of them on most 'key' points. It would be impossible to hold to all of them because they contradict each other in so many ways, which you are discovering on this thread. But can you tell us to which (or whose) out of the many MJ theologies MJAA officially hold in relation to: Torah (practice & theory), God, the Messiah, MJ Christology, Future of Israel. Theodicy, Eschatology, Ecclesiology and so on, just for starters (and I don't just mean which parts of their S of F cover these items)? Then we can debate sensible questions instead of being beaten with polarised views with which few here readily or completely agree.

 

[Avodat]

Oh golly! Did I miss one of your posts? I'm sorry if I ignored you. What did you ask me?

No, I was saying that I had asked Qnts2 for information about her / MJAA theologies but had no response - not you! Sorry if I gave that impression.

 

[Yahudim]

No, I was saying that I had asked Snt2 for information about her / MJAA theologies but had no response - not you! Sorry if I gave that impression.

No worries!

 

[mishkan]

If this board wants to be One Law/Hebrew roots, that is fine. Just change the name. Don't pretend to represent Messianic Judaism, and then call Messianic Jews names because they are not One Law.

Wow... how arrogant. Nobody is forcing you to be part of this forum. If you don't like what is represented here, then you don't have to post.

What I'd rather see, though, is discussion of real ideas and concepts, and stop pretending you are the thought police who is going to make us all align with your labels.

This whole argument is narishkeit.