The Minimum Wage Tradeoff

[Erik Nelson]

dozens of other people that will work for peanuts.

If you don't like employers having a "reserve army of unemployed" to frighten you with, then why do you support wide open borders with massive immigration?

 

[Erik Nelson]

2 year colleges should be free.

free for whom, expensive for whom else ?

 

[Erik Nelson]

2) There is a huge deficiency in tech workers in the US. There are programs to help companies hire foreign help, when no Americans can be found. I would give every foreigners who graduates from a US college a green card with his or her diploma.

let's pretend that's actually true

There's 20-30M under-to-un-employed Americans

And you're saying there's a slew of good jobs available?

2+2=...

Whatever happened to complaining about how "Capitalism creates millions of homeless people alongside millions of people-less homes" ? Don't Americans have a "pro-social" duty to look after the hard-pressed working class ?

What do you mean "there are programs to help companies hire foreign help" but not "programs to help companies train local help" ?

 

[rambot]

let's pretend that's actually true

There's 20-30M under-to-un-employed Americans

And you're saying there's a slew of good jobs available?

2+2=..

1) It's condescending, petty and (coming from a poster), pretty ridiculous, to suggest that isn't true. mark46 is pretty consistent with his information and (if I recall his posts) tends to be pretty balanced and centrist.
2)Your argument is that you can just "shove" people into jobs because "jobs are available"? That seems to be BEYOND rudimentary understanding.

Whatever happened to complaining about how "Capitalism creates millions of homeless people alongside millions of people-less homes" ? Don't Americans have a "pro-social" duty to look after the hard-pressed working class ?

pssst! (America Spoiler!**)
Those programs exist too.

What do you mean "there are programs to help companies hire foreign help" but not "programs to help companies train local help" ?

Because Americans are entitled and ARE NOT WILLING TO WORK for the wages that illegals are willing to work floor.
Hate the boss; hate the business owner; hate the game. But don't hate the worker.

1) It's condescending, petty and (coming from a poster), pretty ridiculous, to suggest that isn't true. mark46 is pretty consistent with his information and (if I recall his posts) tends to be pretty balanced and centrist.
2)Your argument is that you can just "shove" people into jobs because "jobs are available"?

 

[mark46]

free for whom, expensive for whom else ?

Think of community colleges as 13th and 14th grade. Let them be attached to current high schools to better understand. When I was in HS, the voc-tech was a couple of miles away.

I believe that paying for folks to attend community college and voc-tech schools is a great use of scarce resources.

As an aside, these schools MUST be controlled by states, or even by local school districts. Over the years, there has been much scandal when the feds do the monitoring and control.

 

[mark46]

Of course, there are government programs to help train American workers within their companies, and should be many more.

There are indeed good paying jobs available, and many that are just starting to be available.

let's pretend that's actually true

There's 20-30M under-to-un-employed Americans

And you're saying there's a slew of good jobs available?

2+2=...

Whatever happened to complaining about how "Capitalism creates millions of homeless people alongside millions of people-less homes" ? Don't Americans have a "pro-social" duty to look after the hard-pressed working class ?

What do you mean "there are programs to help companies hire foreign help" but not "programs to help companies train local help" ?

 

[loveofourlord]

If you don't like employers having a "reserve army of unemployed" to frighten you with, then why do you support wide open borders with massive immigration?

Most of the jobs those people do are jobs that American refuse to do as being beneath them or literally are paid peanuts to work. How many Americans were willing to go work at penies a tomato they pick?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Most of the jobs those people do are jobs that American refuse to do as being beneath them or literally are paid peanuts to work. How many Americans were willing to go work at pennies a tomato they pick?

And how many Americans would want to pay higher "European prices" for fruit?

But you're saying you're in a separate, higher pay, jobs market -- "they don't affect you"? So you're not that bad off? There are jobs "beneath" you?

More supply of labor always reduces the (relative) demand for labor, driving down wages -- if there were millions fewer "suppliers of labor" in the US economy, the (relative) demand would be higher, raising all wages (and prices). Without 30M undocumented workers, all those jobs would have to be automated or go to Americans.



This map shows how much each country spends on food

 

[Erik Nelson]

these schools MUST be controlled by states, or even by local school districts. Over the years, there has been much scandal when the feds do the monitoring and control.

Propose the measure for your local district, persuade your fellow taxpayers to fund 13-14th grade, pioneer the program, and prove its utility. What's stopping you?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Going to college shouldn't cost at all.
Ringo

Colleges are a racket (er, business) that runs on money.

 

[Erik Nelson]

2)Your argument is that you can just "shove" people into jobs because "jobs are available"?

actually, as you yourself next noticed...

Those programs exist too.

good -- Americans can [be trained to] do any job 'tis humanly possible to do 99.9% the same as anyone else. Why give foreigners first chance for prime US jobs? They're more willing (and able) to pay for (the college level training for) them?

Because Americans are entitled and ARE NOT WILLING TO WORK for the wages that illegals are willing to work for.

Seriously? Who taught Americans they don't have to work on windy days, snowy days, overcast days...

Hate the boss; hate the business owner; hate the game. But don't hate the worker.

All hate is bad?

This sounds like "Identity Socialism" where race (and gender) is substituted for class in Marxist doctrine -- all whites (and men) are exploitative capitalist bourgeoisie, all non-whites (and women) are exploited working proletariat. So much for "workers of the world unite" ?

There's a New Brand of Socialism in Town

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And how many Americans would want to pay higher "European prices" for fruit?

But you're saying you're in a separate, higher pay, jobs market -- "they don't affect you"? So you're not that bad off? There are jobs "beneath" you?

More supply of labor always reduces the (relative) demand for labor, driving down wages -- if there were millions fewer "suppliers of labor" in the US economy, the (relative) demand would be higher, raising all wages (and prices). Without 30M undocumented workers, all those jobs would have to be automated or go to Americans.



This map shows how much each country spends on food

Better (or worse) yet, American's eat too much, and waste lots of food as well.

 

[mark46]

Propose the measure for your local district, persuade your fellow taxpayers to fund 13-14th grade, pioneer the program, and prove its utility. What's stopping you?

???
I'm fine with all funding coming from local tax forces. My point is that Americans should have 14 years of education.

I have a suspicion that you believe that the government shouldn't pay for high school.

 

[mark46]

And how many Americans would want to pay higher "European prices" for fruit?

What is your point?

Americans won't take the jobs.

Fruit prices have been going up for decade, as well as wages for laborers, as one might expect. Now, I'm not talking about all states, just those that have some interest in protecting their laborers (in the case if fruit that includes the West Coast and NY.

 

[Pommer]

???
I'm fine with all funding coming from local tax forces. My point is that Americans should have 14 years of education.

I have a suspicion that you believe that the government shouldn't pay for high school.

Aye, my grandfather went to school for as long as he was required, sixth grade. My father went the full EIGHT years that his parents generation thought was needed to “learn ‘em”. I went the 12...that was forty-&d#* years ago. 14 years of schooling sounds about right.

 

[Speedwell]

This is the great illusion. Companies in the US don't need minimal level management trainees with a college degrees. These jobs are being automated faster than jobs in any other sector.

I have look at this issue for more than 60 years (this issue was even dealt with the sci-fi books I read as a kind). Thee has been a lot written about this issue. Folks with a 4 year BA degree in business, or whatever are not particularly valuable. On the other hand, look at those who have trade apprenticeships (carpentry, plumbing) or vocational college training, or specialized 2 year degrees (e.g xray tech). Mechanics do well. These folks will a a good living while those with a BA degree may or may not.

When I was in high school, we had a vocational-technical 2 year school nearby. Many of our students participated in programs there. Most never ended up going to college, just to good jobs. Some did go to college, some to the best colleges (with fine scholarships.
===========
BOTTOM LINE
Corporation jobs for generals and low level analysts are disappearing every day. That is not a good job track for individuals, and not a particularly good use of federal money. That being said, I think that 2 year colleges should be free.

Secondary schools still suck, and in many cases the level of preparation is worse for further tech schooling than it is for university. I have no personal complaint. I'm a (retired) workforce development trainer and made a good living teaching high-school-graduate factory workers the elementary literacy and math skills they needed to benefit from basic technical training. Trying to fix the grotesque inadequacies of secondary schooling by "adding on" junior college is a mistake. Post-secondary education should be to learn something new. Now it is for too many mostly remediation.

 

[Ringo84]

Money grows on trees ?

Sure seems to when it comes to throwing money at defense contractors and billionaire tax cuts.

For students buried under piles of debt and people who need relief during a pandemic? Not so much.

But maybe if American teachers spent more time teaching crucial core content, instead of pontificating about "social issues"... and if they actually agreed to teach for their salaries instead of staying home mocking parents for wanting their kids back in school...

America would be even better off if we decided to fund public schools adequately instead of not giving them enough money and then using teachers as a punching bag because our kids aren't learning. That would be great, actually.
Ringo

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Sure seems to when it comes to throwing money at defense contractors and billionaire tax cuts.

For students buried under piles of debt and people who need relief during a pandemic? Not so much.



America would be even better off if we decided to fund public schools adequately instead of not giving them enough money and then using teachers as a punching bag because our kids aren't learning. That would be great, actually.
Ringo

It's a zero-sum game. As soon as one problem is solved we craft another one to take it's place. Best to deal with 'the devil you know'. Also, we've institutionalized our problems and they are now integral to our economy.

Most schools are adequately funded. The problem is the curriculum. Kids come out no more prepared for life than when they went in.

 

[Ringo84]

It's a zero-sum game. As soon as one problem is solved we craft another one to take it's place. Best to deal with 'the devil you know'. Also, we've institutionalized our problems and they are now integral to our economy.

Most schools are adequately funded. The problem is the curriculum. Kids come out no more prepared for life than when they went in.

No. It's not zero sum. Part of the problem is that we see it as zero sum.

Public schools are not adequately funded; particularly in minority districts (such a coincidence, right?). Teachers are underpaid, underappreciated, and undersupplied. The modern way we have to solve this problem is to force teachers to test to stupid standardized testing and beating up on them because of funding issues.

For 40 years we've been led down the primrose path of cutting our way to better government. It doesn't work that way, and it never has. If you want responsive government that has great services for people, you have to fund it adequately.
Ringo

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Schools in minority districts should reduce their crime rates and use the money saved for education.

If those schools are underfunded they can't afford better teachers. Also, undereducated teachers shouldn't be teaching courses that neither they or their students understand. Curricula should be designed for the ability of both teachers and students.

Minorities (blacks) chose the primrose path themselves after the Civil Rights Acts of the 1960's. They are still choosing it today. They can turn it around anytime they wish to.