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The Minimum Wage Tradeoff

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by mark46, Feb 27, 2021.

  1. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We should consider the current situaion.

    Folks who make the minimum wage and have a child are eligible for welfare, food stamps and other programs. Paying more reduces that welfare cost.

    There are indeed lots of jobs that will be lost. I submit that many of those jobs SHOULD BE LOST. The obvious example is that of marginal small businesses that pay the minimum to their workers so that the family owners can just get by. What would happen if these businesses closed? Would the number of people eating out go down. No, of course not. More successful businesses would serve the public. These workers would need to find jobs at those establishments or elsewhere.

    Let us say that we are now getting our meal at our local small Chinese restaurant for $25. That price is artificially low because of the sweat shop labor. If these marginal businesses were replaced by restaurants that could succeed if they charged us $35 because labor costs were higher, would society be better or worse off.
    ====================
    Just BTW, many low cost stores have increased their labor costs. Last I heard, Walmart was not in danger because they pay their employees a minimum of $11 an hour in GA where it is acceptable to pay minimum federal levels. Walmart would survive well with the proposed schedule of minimum wages increase. After all, the current minimum wage (adjusted for inflation) is lower that when it was first implemented so many years ago.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  2. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    How many businesses have you owned?
     
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  3. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Minimum wage and inflation: These two charts show how much workers have fallen behind - CNNPolitics

    1960 United States Minimum Wage in Today's Dollars

    In today's dollars worker's actual wages are about the same as in 1960. The difference is that there are many more (so-called) minimum wage jobs available.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  4. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    The "sad fact" about modern industrialised nations is that there is not enough low qualified work to go around for everyone to put in 40-ish hours per week. It's probably more like 30, maybe even 25.

    Sadly, we as a civilisation have decided that it's more reasonable to have 3 people work 40 hours and one person to be left in the cold, instead of 4 people working 30 hours and being payed a living wage for that. Following that, workers without skills that are high in demand are forced to take whatever they can get, lowering the worth of their work.

    Once machines have made every worker obsolete, humanity will die out because nobody will be able to find work to buy the products of the machines.
     
  5. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Last time I looked at what economists said, raising the minimum wage doesn't have that large a price in raising unemployment. But I agree that having full-time workers that can't live decently is a mistake. The rest of us are subsidizing the companies that do this.
     
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  6. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    There are too many low skilled workers. It's a supply and demand thing. Nothing immoral. The whole world is overpopulated.
     
  7. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    perhaps only small business owners should vote or have opinions.

    My family, my step father, my father, and one my grandfathers have owned restaurants. I don't recall whether my other grandfather owned his own meat shop (he was a butcher).

    Of course, you didn't say SMALL BUSINESSES. My career was spent primarily with the finance department of large businesses doing business analyses. My MBA is from a top 10 MBA program.
    ========
    and you?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  8. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    You don't think increasing the cost to the customer by 40% affects business, which then affects jobs available?
     
  9. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    I thought as much.
     
  10. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm not sure this is really true. There are plenty of low-wage things to do. One area that's growing rapidly is home health aide. The traditional ones are still there.
     
  11. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    My ex-wife and my daughter both worked as home health aides for elderly people but there weren't enough hours of work to make it worthwhile, not to mention the physical and mental stress of the job (the most common complaint of caregivers).
     
  12. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We don't have the answer to the fact that we need fewer unskilled workers. In the US, we create new service jobs. In cities, folks are paid to walk dogs, shop for others, be personal trainers, and many other service jobs.

    The other problem is that we have a great need for skilled workers, many of which are not "college" jobs.
    We will always need plumbers, carpenters, installers, technicians, and lots of other skilled jobs. We need increased training, especially for "new" jobs such as solar and wind technicians

    We also pay people to mow our lawns, pick our crops, work at our restaurants and provide other service functions. In 2021, we could creat millions of jobs in a government program to fix our transformation infrastructure.
    =======
    BUT IN THE END, YOU ARE RIGHT
    The US has virtually NO employment for those with college decrees or for those who are highly skilled. We will need the face the fact that we will need to constantly create service jobs, and the fact that there will always be significant welfare costs.

    ALSO, we will need to deal with the fact that even under full employment, the income gap will likely continue to grow.
     
  13. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jobs will be lost, and they SHOULD BE. Marginal businesses will close, and they SHOULD CLOSE.
    ===========
    So, it is your position that we will stop going out to eat if we close the restaurants who survive by paying their workers $7.25 and hour (actually less)? If your analysis is correct, we should allow businesses to pay $5 and hour, because more inefficient small businesses will survive.

    It is NOT efficient for society to have workers being paid amounts so low that the state needs to pay then welfare. And why? So that owners can keep their labor costs down.
     
  14. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    My suggestion would be to just feed a third of them into the meat grinder. Repeat as neccessary.
     
  15. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I suppose that this situation is a function of location. However, it is clear that there is a huge need for home health workers, and for workers at our various elder care facilities and centers. These folks are among those in MOST need of having increased wages. In our area, most health aide workers are employees of health care services companies (some quite small).
     
  16. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    "We're gonna need a bigger meat grinder."

    JAWS: We Need a Bigger Boat - YouTube

    Hey, maybe we can get 'Bruce' to eat them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  17. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Of course there is less eating out when the prices go up, many can't afford to eat out as often.
    Labor costs are a factor of supply and demand. When there aren't enough workers for unskilled jobs, the wages go up, which makes the cost of the product go up, which then prices some consumers out of the market, especially the disadvantaged.
     
  18. Ringo84

    Ringo84 Separation of Church and State expert

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    As we all know, the only way that a person can comment on minimum wage or other economic issues is by owning several businesses.


    If we can't pay workers enough to be able to live on, then how can we call ourselves a "Christian" nation or even a just one?
    Ringo
     
  19. gaara4158

    gaara4158 (Power Level Hidden)

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    Studies show that there is no significant disemployment effect associated with raising the minimum wage up to 60% of the median, and possibly higher.
     
  20. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would be no worse off because I can neither afford the $35 cost nor the $25 cost of such meals. I'll be eating my peanut butter sandwich just the same.
     
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