The Minimum Wage Tradeoff

[loveofourlord]

supply and demand

if the supply of college graduates increased significantly (and suddenly)... where would you get the corresponding significant (and sudden) increase in demand (=jobs) waiting for those new grads?

as is, your proposal would flood the upper end of the job market with way more job seekers than available jobs

would result in massive unemployment on top of huge debt

It's already more job seekers then available jobs why many people are barely squeaking by in the current economic situation. There just isn't enough, "Just get a better job so your not poor." mentality expects.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And having a education is part of getting off of minimum wage, AND getting off minimum wage enough to where they can have a living wage, wich is what the 15$ raise is all about. it's about, "This is the minimum the average American needs to live without welfare and such." You can't talk about wages, without talking about what goes into them. Climbing up the ladder isn't just, "I've been working at Walmart for 30 years." it's what kind of education they have for better positions and such, or a better job.

Like I said, raise it to $15/hr. It might work out just fine. We won't know until we do it. But until we do those workers will have to manage the best they can while waiting for 'manna from heaven'.

 

[loveofourlord]

Have you ever been at an American university?

That's N.O.T. why American universities (and companies) prefer foreign college students & grad students (and workers) over Americans (of whom there are plenty).

One guess as to what the bottom line really is?

Right it's that and not stuff like this.

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/pisa-2012-results-overview graph 1_larger.jpg

where America is below many first world countries.

 

[loveofourlord]

Like I said, raise it to $15/hr. It might work out just fine. We won't know until we do it. But until we do those workers will have to manage the best they can while waiting for 'manna from heaven'.

Yeah...so wonderful that the US system requires most of it's people to wait for their corporate overlords to bless then with living.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It's already more job seekers then available jobs why many people are barely squeaking by in the current economic situation. There just isn't enough, "Just get a better job so your not poor." mentality expects.

You can get ahead on low pay. You just need a good plan.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yeah...so wonderful that the US system requires most of it's people to wait for their corporate overlords to bless then with living.

If it's your plan to work for wages for the rest of your life you take what is given.

Regarding education. We are being educated to fail, and succeeding beyond even our teachers expectations.

 

[loveofourlord]

You can get ahead on low pay. You just need a good plan.

Yeah like working 2-3 jobs and being a wage slave that never has any life, so wonderful.

 

[loveofourlord]

If it's your plan to work for wages for the rest of your life you take what is given.

Or the system gets fixed so that people aren't reliant on the goodness of corporations whose only motive is profit and if that means it hurts you they will do it. You get angry, well there is dozens of other people that will work for peanuts.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yeah like working 2-3 jobs and being a wage slave that never has any life, so wonderful.

I've almost always had more than one job/income. Today I have four income streams, thanks to working multiple jobs in the past. The 40 hour/week limit is a recipe for failure for many working people. Few successful businesspersons work that few hours. Usually it's 70-80/week including weekends.

One of the secrets of wealth-building is delaying gratification. It works because you know you will enjoy those things eventually.

Regarding work itself,

"Play is the work of children. Work is the play of adults."

I love work. If more people did they would be wealthier.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Or the system gets fixed so that people aren't reliant on the goodness of corporations whose only motive is profit and if that means it hurts you they will do it. You get angry, well there is dozens of other people that will work for peanuts.

America is the land of the individual working for his or her success. I can't speak to the large segment of the population that seems to be disadvantaged, but I can advise those individuals regarding success.

 

[mark46]

I'd think that non selfish people would be thrilled to see younger people not have to struggle the same way they did.

To say that we have to keep the newer generations in debt for the rest of their lives because it'd be "unfair" to others is like saying that we have to stay in forever war in the Middle East because it'd be "unfair" to the soldiers that had alreayd died.
Ringo

utter nonsense

No one forced you to borrow lots of money.

Many saved.

Many lived at home.

Many went to community colleges first.

Many worked before and while being in college.

I think that the costs at many colleges is outrageous.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that I should decide to pay for YOUR education and not the education of those who decided to borrow less or make other decisions.

 

[Ringo84]

utter nonsense

No one forced you to borrow lots of money.

Many saved.

Many lived at home.

Many went to community colleges first.

Many worked before and while being in college.

I think that the costs at many colleges is outrageous.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that I should decide to pay for YOUR education and not the education of those who decided to borrow less or make other decisions.

No one forced big businesses to make risky decisions that led to them getting bailed out in 2008/9 either, yet the coffers were opened wide for them.

That's one of the fundamental disconnects in this country: average people work hard, try to make good and end up far behind financially; they're left to fend for themselves. Billionaires live high off of the hog making risky investments and using the stock market as a casino, and nobody blinks an eye when they're bailed out.

It's socialism for the rich, and 'rugged individualism' for the poor. That's unacceptable and completely contrary to what it should be. Nobody should go into debt up to their eyeballs because they chose to get into higher education. College should be free for everyone whether they went to community college, lived at home or went straight to a four-year institution. Period.
Ringo

 

[Speedwell]

utter nonsense

No one forced you to borrow lots of money.

Many saved.

Many lived at home.

Many went to community colleges first.

Many worked before and while being in college.

I think that the costs at many colleges is outrageous.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that I should decide to pay for YOUR education and not the education of those who decided to borrow less or make other decisions.

And then there's the elephant over there trying to hide behind the drapes. In most developed (and many developing) countries, completion of secondary school is considered sufficient preparation to enter the white-collar class as management trainees, officer candidates and other such genteel employments. Universities are for those who desire to become academics, or to take up some specialized profession such as medicine or the law. By any measure, secondary schooling in the US sucks. And because it is so bad, people are expected to go to college just because they want some (any?) kind of white-collar job. And they will borrow money to do it, because until relatively recently, it paid out.

 

[mark46]

so, we should pay for you to go the college of your choice?

I've almost always had more than one job/income. Today I have four income streams, thanks to working multiple jobs in the past. The 40 hour/week limit is a recipe for failure for many working people. Few successful businesspersons work that few hours. Usually it's 70-80/week including weekends.

One of the secrets of wealth-building is delaying gratification. It works because you know you will enjoy those things eventually.

Regarding work itself,

"Play is the work of children. Work is the play of adults."

I love work. If more people did they would be wealthier.

No one forced big businesses to make risky decisions that led to them getting bailed out in 2008/9 either, yet the coffers were opened wide for them.

That's one of the fundamental disconnects in this country: average people work hard, try to make good and end up far behind financially; they're left to fend for themselves. Billionaires live high off of the hog making risky investments and using the stock market as a casino, and nobody blinks an eye when they're bailed out.

It's socialism for the rich, and 'rugged individualism' for the poor. That's unacceptable and completely contrary to what it should be. Nobody should go into debt up to their eyeballs because they chose to get into higher education. College should be free for everyone whether they went to community college, lived at home or went straight to a four-year institution. Period.
Ringo

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No one forced big businesses to make risky decisions that led to them getting bailed out in 2008/9 either, yet the coffers were opened wide for them.

That's one of the fundamental disconnects in this country: average people work hard, try to make good and end up far behind financially; they're left to fend for themselves. Billionaires live high off of the hog making risky investments and using the stock market as a casino, and nobody blinks an eye when they're bailed out.

It's socialism for the rich, and 'rugged individualism' for the poor. That's unacceptable and completely contrary to what it should be. Nobody should go into debt up to their eyeballs because they chose to get into higher education. College should be free for everyone whether they went to community college, lived at home or went straight to a four-year institution. Period.
Ringo

I would support free college, but only if I could decide the curriculum. No more courses on "The Sex Life of the South American Swamp Rat" (no offense intended toward the rat).

 

[Ringo84]

so, we should pay for you to go the college of your choice?

Going to college shouldn't cost at all.
Ringo

 

[Erik Nelson]

Right it's that and not stuff like this.

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/pisa-2012-results-overview graph 1_larger.jpg

where America is below many first world countries.

Elon Musk had no difficulty finding qualified US specialists

But maybe if American teachers spent more time teaching crucial core content, instead of pontificating about "social issues"... and if they actually agreed to teach for their salaries instead of staying home mocking parents for wanting their kids back in school...

then maybe America could be even better off.

And don't Dems posture themselves as the "elite of elites" to boot ?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Going to college shouldn't cost at all

Money grows on trees ?

 

[mark46]

And then there's the elephant over there trying to hide behind the drapes. In most developed (and many developing) countries, completion of secondary school is considered sufficient preparation to enter the white-collar class as management trainees, officer candidates and other such genteel employments. Universities are for those who desire to become academics, or to take up some specialized profession such as medicine or the law. By any measure, secondary schooling in the US sucks. And because it is so bad, people are expected to go to college just because they want some (any?) kind of white-collar job. And they will borrow money to do it, because until relatively recently, it paid out.

This is the great illusion. Companies in the US don't need minimal level management trainees with a college degrees. These jobs are being automated faster than jobs in any other sector.

I have look at this issue for more than 60 years (this issue was even dealt with the sci-fi books I read as a kind). Thee has been a lot written about this issue. Folks with a 4 year BA degree in business, or whatever are not particularly valuable. On the other hand, look at those who have trade apprenticeships (carpentry, plumbing) or vocational college training, or specialized 2 year degrees (e.g xray tech). Mechanics do well. These folks will a a good living while those with a BA degree may or may not.

When I was in high school, we had a vocational-technical 2 year school nearby. Many of our students participated in programs there. Most never ended up going to college, just to good jobs. Some did go to college, some to the best colleges (with fine scholarships.
===========
BOTTOM LINE
Corporation jobs for generals and low level analysts are disappearing every day. That is not a good job track for individuals, and not a particularly good use of federal money. That being said, I think that 2 year colleges should be free.

 

[mark46]

1) yes, US education is terrible, and should spend lots more money and emphasis on STEM subjects.

2) There is a huge deficiency in tech workers in the US. There are programs to help companies hire foreign help, when no Americans can be found. I would give every foreigners who graduates from a US college a green card with his or her diploma.

3) SpaceX employees need to be Americans, because of their DOD contracts. Alos, I suspect that Musk pays well. He is a visionary, and not all about short term profits.

Elon Musk had no difficulty finding qualified US specialists

But maybe if American teachers spent more time teaching crucial core content, instead of pontificating about "social issues"... and if they actually agreed to teach for their salaries instead of staying home mocking parents for wanting their kids back in school...

then maybe America could be even better off.

And don't Dems posture themselves as the "elite of elites" to boot ?