The Minimum Wage Tradeoff

[OldWiseGuy]

Nope.



Nothing's "wrong" with it, but it shouldn't be necessary to survive. Maybe someone has the skills and simply can't find a job in their chosen field?

It must be so nice to be dismissive of minimum wage workers' plight because you climbed up the ladder and decided to bring it up with you so that others couldn't follow.
Ringo

I think the problem is that too few are climbing up the ladder. They're all bunched up at the bottom.

 

[Ringo84]

I think the problem is that too few are climbing up the ladder. They're all bunched up at the bottom.

What do you mean?

The system we have helps to keep people at the bottom.
Ringo

 

[mark46]

I think the problem is that too few are climbing up the ladder. They're all bunched up at the bottom.

Yes, it is harder to move up that a few decades ago. The issue is NOT the gap. The issue is mobility.
Look at those with a college degree. What percent are unemployed? How badly have they been hit by the pandemic? (almost not at all) How are skilled plumbers and other non-college professionals doing?
I'm not sure, but they will be fine soon, if they are not already.

The need for training and useful college programs that move folks into the disappearing middle class.

We are going to have a very large service sector for a long time. One goal would be for folks to be able to be relatively content members of society with those jobs.

The REAL problem is the underclass. Many are uneducated and the untrained. Many have mental health issues. Many have drug histories and use (many company's won't risk hiring them). Some have criminal histories. Many have medical issues.

As an aside, I am not talking about landscapers, farm workers, and construction workers. These jobs are always available and should be paid a reasonable wage (and yes, food prices have gone up)/

 

[mark46]

What do you mean?

The system we have helps to keep people at the bottom.
Ringo

sounds like a bumper sticker

For example, does the system prevent the poor from getting a college education, or does it help. I would argue that the changes started in the 60's have helped.

Two related areas where the system has kept people down is drug policy and criminal justice policy.

 

[Ringo84]

sounds like a bumper sticker

For example, does the system prevent the poor from getting a college education, or does it help. I would argue that the changes started in the 60's have helped.

Two related areas where the system has kept people down is drug policy and criminal justice policy.

Both. I think obtaining a college degree has become more "necessary" in the modern world, but the costs associated with college have skyrocketed while the use of college (the 'effectiveness' of receiving a college degree) has stagnated.

One thing we could do about that is free college.
Ringo

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The REAL problem is the underclass. Many are uneducated and the untrained. Many have mental health issues. Many have drug histories and use (many company's won't risk hiring them). Some have criminal histories. Many have medical issues.

This fact is met with stunning silence by many who advocate for higher minimum wages.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The need for training and useful college programs that move folks into the disappearing middle class.

This aspect of the work force is deprecated by the elitists that insist that college is the only route to (their version of) the American dream. Industry is actively recruiting skilled technicians from other countries to fill the growing need for such. What a disgrace.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What do you mean?

The system we have helps to keep people at the bottom.
Ringo

People are like cattle, all helplessly clustered together in a corner. When lightning strikes they're all dead.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Both. I think obtaining a college degree has become more "necessary" in the modern world, but the costs associated with college have skyrocketed while the use of college (the 'effectiveness' of receiving a college degree) has stagnated.

One thing we could do about that is free college.
Ringo

Lol. That's like the two morons that went into business hauling fill dirt. They discovered that they were losing money on each yard of dirt they hauled...so they decided they needed a bigger truck.

 

[gaara4158]

This fact is met with stunning silence by many who advocate for higher minimum wages.

What do you think ought to happen to people with criminal records, medical histories, and drug problems?

 

[Ringo84]

Lol. That's like the two morons that went into business hauling fill dirt. They discovered that they were losing money on each yard of dirt they hauled...so they decided they needed a bigger truck.

Not everyone needs to go to college, that is true. The trades are perfectly valid and might actually pay more than a job that requires a college education. But those who want to go to college should not have to promise their firstborn child for tuition, and they should not have to go into debt for the rest of their lives to pay for it.

Student debt should also be forgiven.
Ringo

 

[Ken-1122]

What do you mean?

The system we have helps to keep people at the bottom.
Ringo

1. Exactly what is it about our system that keeps people at the bottom?
2. Why is it that 80% of our richest people in this country are first generation rich?
10 Surprising Millionaire Facts That You Never Knew

 

[Ken-1122]

Nope. Nothing's "wrong" with it, but it shouldn't be necessary to survive.

In a perfect world it wouldn't be, but this world is far from perfect. Sometimes you gotta do what cha gotta do to make things work.

Maybe someone has the skills and simply can't find a job in their chosen field?

Perhaps they should choose another field

It must be so nice to be dismissive of minimum wage workers' plight because you climbed up the ladder and decided to bring it up with you so that others couldn't follow.
Ringo

How does me getting off minimum wage prevent others from getting off of it? I'm dying to hear you explain that one for me.

 

[Ken-1122]

Student debt should also be forgiven.
Ringo

So who should get ripped off? The tax payers or the lending companies?

 

[Ringo84]

In a perfect world it wouldn't be, but this world is far from perfect. Sometimes you gotta do what cha gotta do to make things work.

We don't live in a perfect world. We don't live in an equitable world either.

Can't do anything about the former, but there are things we can do about the latter, and we should.

Perhaps they should choose another field

Bing bong so simple! Why didn't they think of that?

How does me getting off minimum wage prevent others from getting off of it? I'm dying to hear you explain that one for me.

You can give a hoot about people who were in the same position you were in, but in times when it wasn't quite as easy to move up the ladder.

1. Exactly what is it about our system that keeps people at the bottom?

The fact that the system is of, by and for the rich.

So who should get ripped off? The tax payers or the lending companies?

If you're expecting me to shed tears over the lending companies, well....you're going to be sadly mistaken.
Ringo

 

[iluvatar5150]

This fact is met with stunning silence by many who advocate for higher minimum wages.

I know plenty of people who advocate for a higher minimum wage. I don't know any of them who aren't concerned about the struggles faced by people with issues surrounding mental health, criminal records, or job training. For everybody I can think of, higher minimum wages are part of a broader set of policies they want to help the poor.

This aspect of the work force is deprecated by the elitists that insist that college is the only route to (their version of) the American dream. Industry is actively recruiting skilled technicians from other countries to fill the growing need for such. What a disgrace.

These industries should start paying people to work in those jobs and should start paying for schools to set up training programs that cost less than a regular private university.

1. Exactly what is it about our system that keeps people at the bottom?

Acquiring wealth often requires access to resources that are, themselves, a product of (or at least correlated with) having money. Poverty perpetuates itself and we don't have as many systems in place as other countries to help people out of that poverty.

2. Why is it that 80% of our richest people in this country are first generation rich?
10 Surprising Millionaire Facts That You Never Knew

Because "millionaire" does not equate to "rich." A couple million is about the minimum needed for a modest, middle class retirement. A kid making $50k/yr out of college with responsible spending and saving habits (or without mountains of debt) can become a millionaire by his mid-40's without much trouble.

 

[mark46]

This fact is met with stunning silence by many who advocate for higher minimum wages.

While true, there is a need for a safety net minimum wage.

 

[mark46]

Both. I think obtaining a college degree has become more "necessary" in the modern world, but the costs associated with college have skyrocketed while the use of college (the 'effectiveness' of receiving a college degree) has stagnated.

One thing we could do about that is free college.
Ringo

Folks with training as an apprentice are much more "necessary" than a college degree. There is, and always be, a great need for plumbers, carpenters, computer technicians, other technicians, and many others. Many are helped with training in a technical school. Four year college degrees, with no specific training, is worth less.

I'm fine with STATES providing free technical education, AA's and even BA's in public schools. Greatly discounted costs for state residents is more reasonable. FEDERAL guarantees are not needed or reasonable.

 

[Ringo84]

FEDERAL guarantees are not needed or reasonable.

I'd love to know why.
Ringo

 

[Erik Nelson]

there is a need for a safety net minimum wage.

the only safety net for those who supply Labor... is demand for that Labor

If there is demand for Labor, that very demand will drive up wages