The Minimum Wage Tradeoff

[Erik Nelson]

There are indeed lots of jobs that will be lost. I submit that many of those jobs SHOULD BE LOST.

Yours one of those?

 

[grasping the after wind]

As we all know, the only way that a person can comment on minimum wage or other economic issues is by owning several businesses.


If we can't pay workers enough to be able to live on, then how can we call ourselves a "Christian" nation or even a just one?
Ringo

You are an expert on how much a worker needs to be able to live on I take it. Is it the same for a non worker or does the figure vary due to not needing as many calories when one does no work? Please let me know what the figure is for both. If my income falls below what you determine I guess I will bid a fond farewell to my family and go immediately to my grave.

 

[Ringo84]

You are an expert on how much a worker needs to be able to live on I take it. Is it the same for a non worker or does the figure vary due to not needing as many calories when one does no work? Please let me know what the figure is for both. If my income falls below what you determine I guess I will bid a fond farewell to my family and go immediately to my grave.

I don't claim to be am "expert" on anything, but I live here in the US and I've been a minimum wage slave, so I think I can speak to the fact that we don't pay people enough to live.

This, folks, is what's called a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy: that you have to have advanced degrees in economics to be able to make a peep on economic issues like paying people enough to be able to put food on their table.

Edit - This may not actually be True Scotsman, now that I think about it. It's more like Appeal To Authority.
Ringo

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Most businesses subscribe to a 'business model', that includes pretty strict pay scales. Wander too far outside the limits can get you in trouble.

The low wage employee had the responsibility to make do on what he or she is paid until they move up the scale or find a higher paying job. Millions have done this through over time. It's just part of the deal.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't claim to be am "expert" on anything, but I live here in the US and I've been a minimum wage slave, so I think I can speak to the fact that we don't pay people enough to live.

This, folks, is what's called a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy: that you have to have advanced degrees in economics to be able to make a peep on economic issues like paying people enough to be able to put food on their table.
Ringo

The problem is that many try to raise a family on it, or want to buy stuff they can't afford. That's not what the minimum wage, or "entry-level pay", is intended for.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I don't claim to be am "expert" on anything, but I live here in the US and I've been a minimum wage slave, so I think I can speak to the fact that we don't pay people enough to live.

This, folks, is what's called a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy: that you have to have advanced degrees in economics to be able to make a peep on economic issues like paying people enough to be able to put food on their table.

Edit - This may not actually be True Scotsman, now that I think about it. It's more like Appeal To Authority.
Ringo

You really can understand this issue (purely economically) from an employer's (= person who pays) point of view

• You walk into Walmart
• New Gov't Law says nothing on the shelves is or can be less than $15

The exact precise same identical way you know very well you yourself would react... is the exact same identical way you will, with your own eyes, see businesses react, to an artificially imposed "price floor"

According to science we're all 99.9% the same

 

[Ringo84]

The problem is that many try to raise a family on it, or want to buy stuff they can't afford. That's not what the minimum wage, or "entry-level pay", is intended for.

How people spend the money is neither the issue nor your business, but as to the so-called "entry level pay" issue, this is a fallacy. There are a lot of people across diverse ages and backgrounds who work minimum wage jobs for various reasons. To dismiss them all as "simply teenagers" is to do a disservice to people's struggle.

But even beyond all of that, no country that doesn't pay its workers - all workers, regardless of what they do - enough to put food on their table, pay their bills and keep their house/apartment/whatever can call itself great. This is basic.
Ringo

 

[Ken-1122]

We should consider the current situaion.

Folks who make the minimum wage and have a child are eligible for welfare, food stamps and other programs.

Minimum wage should not be based on what is necessary to raise a family

Paying more reduces that welfare cost.

The goal of Minimum wage is not to reduce the amount of welfare people require

There are indeed lots of jobs that will be lost. I submit that many of those jobs SHOULD BE LOST. The obvious example is that of marginal small businesses that pay the minimum to their workers so that the family owners can just get by. What would happen if these businesses closed?

Jobs would be lost, resulting in more people taking from the unemployment pot, and less people putting into that unemployment pot

Would the number of people eating out go down.

Yes it would! When the cost of eating out goes up, the number of people who can afford to eat out will go down

More successful businesses would serve the public. These workers would need to find jobs at those establishments or elsewhere.

But there will be less jobs available since (as you admit) lots of jobs would be lost

Let us say that we are now getting our meal at our local small Chinese restaurant for $25. That price is artificially low because of the sweat shop labor. If these marginal businesses were replaced by restaurants that could succeed if they charged us $35 because labor costs were higher, would society be better or worse off.

Society would be worse off because the people who can barely afford the $25 required to eat out will not be able to afford to eat out when the price raises to $35, thus less people eating out, less taxes paid for government programs, and less money pumped into the economy; a lose lose situation.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The problem is that many try to raise a family on it, or want to buy stuff they can't afford. That's not what the minimum wage, or "entry-level pay", is intended for.

Most businesses subscribe to a 'business model', that includes pretty strict pay scales. Wander too far outside the limits can get you in trouble.

The low wage employee had the responsibility to make do on what he or she is paid until they move up the scale or find a higher paying job. Millions have done this through over time. It's just part of the deal.

Here I try to reintroduce an old idea of a family wage, the idea that one 'breadwinner' should be able to modestly provide for a whole family. It's so inegalitarian, but where has abandoning the idea gotten us. I also mention the older idea of the family enterprise, where all pull together to keep a family running. The only place that exists any longer is on some family farms. But more family farms now have both adults working other jobs in addition to the farm work just to stay above water.

We are in a mess that a $15 minimum wage itself cannot fix. Not that I know what would fix it. I wish the Distributivism of Chesterton and Belloc could work.

 

[Ken-1122]

Here I try to reintroduce an old idea of a family wage, the idea that one 'breadwinner' should be able to modestly provide for a whole family.

60 years ago we did have such an economy where 1 bread winner was able to support an entire family, but when you consider what was considered middle class of that day vs today, 60 years ago, most families had only 1 car; today it has multiple, the average house built was only 1,300 sq feet; today it is 2,000, half the households didn’t even have a telephone, or TV let alone computers, personal cell phones, and cable TV , People had less clothes, and far less luxury items than they have today. Today people demand more than they did 60 years ago, and those demands costs more. The standard of living has risen and that standard requires 2 jobs now instead of 1

 

[OldWiseGuy]

How people spend the money is neither the issue nor your business, but as to the so-called "entry level pay" issue, this is a fallacy. There are a lot of people across diverse ages and backgrounds who work minimum wage jobs for various reasons. To dismiss them all as "simply teenagers" is to do a disservice to people's struggle.

But even beyond all of that, no country that doesn't pay its workers - all workers, regardless of what they do - enough to put food on their table, pay their bills and keep their house/apartment/whatever can call itself great. This is basic.
Ringo

You are making a moral issue out of a economic issue; apples and oranges.

 

[Ringo84]

Economics absolutely are a moral issue; especially when you claim to be the "greatest country in the world" according to your own propaganda but complain endlessly about paying people enough money to be able to carry on their lives.
Ringo

 

[Ken-1122]

Economics are a moral issue when you claim to be the "greatest country in the world" according to your own propaganda but complain endlessly about paying people enough money to be able to carry on their lives.
Ringo

If you are gonna ask me to pay you more so you can afford to carry on your chosen lifestyle, I will have a say in your chosen lifestyle. If you have a problem with that, then you need to come up with different reason as to why I should pay you more

 

[loveofourlord]

Lets look at it this way, in many places 7$'s a hour is minimum wage, where as people have to work 2-3 jobs to live off of that, you pay people 15$'s a hour and suddenly they only need 1 job at half the hours, and look suddenly more jobs open up. Lets also look at it this way, there are many businesses that can't just cut work hours, there is a minimum needed, some might where they can, but at the same time people will need less jobs. It's not suddenly there is just as many jobs and man hours of work needed, raise minimum wage and both can go down without harm.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

60 years ago we did have such an economy where 1 bread winner was able to support an entire family, but when you consider what was considered middle class of that day vs today, 60 years ago, most families had only 1 car; today it has multiple, the average house built was only 1,300 sq feet; today it is 2,000, half the households didn’t even have a telephone, or TV let alone computers, personal cell phones, and cable TV , People had less clothes, and far less luxury items than they have today. Today people demand more than they did 60 years ago, and those demands costs more. The standard of living has risen and that standard requires 2 jobs now instead of 1

Spot on! I can attest to all that you are saying (I wuz there).

There was also no consumer credit (cards).

 

[loveofourlord]

The problem is that many try to raise a family on it, or want to buy stuff they can't afford. That's not what the minimum wage, or "entry-level pay", is intended for.

Ummm what is it for? You do realize that there isn't enough jobs for people to get living wages in the states, it's not like there is a surplus of living wage jobs and people are just too lazy to look for better jobs. Some has to be the greeterse, and baggers as Walmart that are never going to pay a living wage no matter how long you work there and so on. This is just reality, money and resources aren't a infinite resource. You guys whine about welfare queens, and then don't care to give people living wages, you can't have it both ways.\

Oh and on the whole nonsense of, "Buying stuff you don't need." hey genius, in many states you CAN NOT even rent a apartment on minimum wage period.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Economics absolutely are a moral issue; especially when you claim to be the "greatest country in the world" according to your own propaganda but complain endlessly about paying people enough money to be able to carry on their lives.
Ringo

With good planning most can do just fine here, even beginning with minimum wages. I did and it has worked out great.

Recall that your bible advises that you don't start a family until you can afford it.

Proverbs 24:27
"Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house."

 

[Ringo84]

If you are gonna ask me to pay you more so you can afford to carry on your chosen lifestyle, I will have a say in your chosen lifestyle. If you have a problem with that, then you need to come up with different reason as to why I should pay you more

Oh my...where do I begin?

First, you're not my boss, (thank the Lord for that). But even if you were, you'd still have no say in how I choose to live my life.

Second, I'm not talking about people going out and boozing it up at night, and I don't know how you got that impression unless either you're too comfortable to have to struggle to make a living or being willfully dense. I'm speaking about people who barely make enough at their workplace to make the rent, or put food on the table.

Nobody should go hungry, homeless or jobless in the supposedly "greatest country in the world".
Ringo

 

[rambot]

Minimum wage and inflation: These two charts show how much workers have fallen behind - CNNPolitics

1960 United States Minimum Wage in Today's Dollars

In today's dollars worker's actual wages are about the same as in 1960. The difference is that there are many more (so-called) minimum wage jobs available.

The issue is buying power

Which has totally tanked.

 

[Ringo84]

With good planning most can do just fine here, even beginning with minimum wages. I did and it has worked out great.

Recall that your bible advises that you don't start a family until you can afford it.

Proverbs 24:27
"Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house."

While that's wonderful for you, the circumstances that allowed you to succeed may not exist for many other people. Those other people should have the same ability to succeed as you did, and that includes paying them enough so that they can afford basic human needs to food and shelter.
Ringo