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The Messianic Movement: A Western Subculture ?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Hoshiyya, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Good thoughts...and I definitely agree

    If I may say.....

    I think it'd be helpful if there'd be a sharing of resources (i.e. books, websites, journals, etc.) that you may have utilized in order to come to your conclusions so as to ensure all can be on the same page as best as possible. Do you have any off hand you could suggest so that others (myself included) can see what you came across to see as you see things? I'd appreciate it :)

    Perhaps even some pictures included -may be helpful as it concerns showing what the actual dress of Israelite culture looked like so there's more of an image/standard to go by which modern culture is being evaluated by.

    With regards to the OP, I think it's definitely an interesting topic to cover - and yet I do think there need to be some things clearly established before going further into the issue of culture and dress.

    For if being completely accurate, there's no true way of knowing EVERY style of dress that the Hebrew people had over a thousand year timeframe - or even what was fully done in the time of the beginning of the Hebrew people when it came to Jacob...and prior to that, Isaac and Abraham. They came from Semitic backgrounds and there was never a dress style given to them that the Lord commanded for them to have - the culture of the 12 sons of Israel would naturally be reflective of the Semitic backgrounds they came from, as well as the Canaanite cultures they often interacted with.


    And when it came to the Hebrews living for a couple of centuries in Egypt due to the actions of Joseph (who lived amongst the Egyptians/married an Egyptian wife and had sons as well - with the Egyptian dress being a part of him per Genesis 41:41-43 ), there's the reality that Egyptian culture/dress also got involved in the culture of the Hebrew people - and in addition to that, we also have Moses who was involved in Midianite culture (as a shepherd) and brought what he had into the mix.

    When I read the Torah on Genesis and Exodus (or Numbers), I don't really see where the Lord at any point said that Israel would be distinguished by its dress style alone - the dress style in the culture was varied and continued to vary as time went on. From the Monarchy beginning with King Saul (in competition with the other kings of the Canaanite cultures) to King Solomon's era with his riches (and dress style per 1 Kings 10:4-6 ), the time of the Babylonian captivity to that of the time in the Persian Empire with Queen Esther (in the dress she had)/the Iranian Jews...the dress styles of different cultures would naturally overflow into the Hebrew culture which never had a set dress code outside of what God commanded the priesthood to wear before Him with the robes/vestments.

    Middle Eastern/Near-Eastern culture is where the Israelites developed in - and of course, one could argue that it seems others today are not distinct in being recognized as other cultures connected with Middle-Eastern culture (as with Muslims) - but that even Muslim culture developed in architechture after stealing it from the Arabic Christians/Eastern Christians, reverse-engineering what they saw and then having all other preceeding generations assume that it was a "Muslim" innovation to have the buildings they turned into mosques be as they are. The architecture of the earliest minarets, which are square rather than round, unmistakably derive from the church towers of Byzantine Syria (and several other things that Muslims have a part of their culture already came from Eastern Christians/Jewish believers - as noted before.

    Professor Philip Jenkiins Philip Jenkins noted it in-depth in his work entitled "The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia — and How It Died"It was very brilliant in discussing the many experiences of believers, whether Jewish or Non-Jewish, who literally spread around the world with the Gospel of Messiah---and yet experienced many pains/difficulties despite the victories they had. Some of the largest Christian denominations during the much of European Middle Ages were what the Roman and Greek churches called Monophysites and Nestorians. Especially this last movement, better known as the Church of the East, was a far reaching web reaching as far as Tibet and China. Along with the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Asian and African members of now almost forgotten churches dominated the Middle East in the centuries before the Muslim conquest and then provided most of the architectural, administrative, and scholarly backbone for the Arabic Empire....but when the sect of Islam began to rise in geographical locations, they took over and claimed the buildings made for themselves.





    For reference:
    In the same way, with Israelite culture, there are many things within it (from Temple style to art as noted in the thread "What did ancient Israelite/Hebrew Art look like?...to dress or hair styles, as discussed before) that were taken naturally from the cultures around them and it was something that became a part of the culture....it wasn't demanded that Israelites had to dress a certain way in order to be distinguished as Israel, outside of scriptural commands such as Deut 22:5 with not dressing in manner as to have men identify as women and vice-versa.

    And with Messianic Jews today (or Jewish people who aren't believers), this has also been brought up in differing ways when it comes to noting how God never said that being Israel meant one had to dress in the manner that they did in B.C era - following the Lord was about lifestyle/worship rather than dress alone....the religion of monotheism/following the Lord transcended dress. Even the Maccabees themselves were influenced by/utilized Hellenism surrounding them in order to combat the idolatry around them - and they certainly would not have fit into the mold many have today of "Anything Western = Not being Distinctly Israel".....


    I pray what I am saying makes sense....IMHO, I really don't see where it was ever an issue with the Lord for Messianic Jews or Messianic Gentiles to adopt styles of dress from the cultures around them as if that would make them no longer distinct as Israel. And technically, if you nor I dress in the same manner as others in Semitic backgrounds ...and others in Semitic cultures don't all dress stereotypically in Semitic clothing all the time since even they dress in Western styles...then I think we'd have other concerns to deal with.

    Many have noted that Messianic Jews in the West would be doing dress-up if they tried to recreate the dress styles of all others they saw in Ancient culture as if that dress style was somehow inherently pure or distinctive - and some Messianics have taken a lot of heat for it, one of them being another who was mentioned before as seen here on Michael Rood:
    I do think that in trying to go back to the dress styles of how ancient Israelites dress can end up being essentially the same thing as others have felt when it comes to make-believe/"dress up" ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  2. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Unfortunately, there are many groups suppressing how other Jews act due to their group assuming they were the only representations of Jewish culture.

    This has happened with the Ethiopian Jews in Israel when it comes to the pressure given by Orthodox Judaism....especially on dress when seeing how Israel's rabbis are now working to phase out the community's white-turbaned clergy, the kessoch:



    And the same has occurred with other African Jews like the Igbo Jews. More shared here:

    Igbo Dress Hebrew Dress - YouTube

    RE-EMERGING: The Jews of Nigeria - YouTube
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  3. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    First of all I would like to repeat that it's not a matter of sin or not sin, it's a matter of whether one treats the Israelite culture with the same reverence Hindus treat Indic and Muslims treat Arabic culture. It is not a sin to wear jeans, kilt, sari, etc. (except if you're a priest, and to the extent it contradicts or problematizes or prohibits you from wearing tzitzit. Interestingly, as with many other commandments, no punishment is attached to the breaking of the command to wear tzitzit.)

    "For if being completely accurate, there's no true way of knowing EVERY style of dress that the Hebrew people had over a thousand year timeframe "
    Well we know they didn't wear kilts, for example. To say we can't or may not get it 100% isn't really important in my view, especially if you're right about the changing nature of their style.

    Nevertheless we add that Hellenic, "Western", Indic, Sinic and Arabic style has developed over time, yet is nevertheless recognizable and consistent. The style of tzitzit has probably also changed over time, yet is (in my view) clearly a recognizable and distinct thing.

    "there was never a dress style given to them that the Lord commanded for them to have"
    Well if I may say so, they were commanded to make fringes in the corners of the garments which assumes cornered garments, for example. You also mention that the priesthood were given specific designs for their garments (were these derivative of other cultures, or actually designed by the Atemporal Creator?) and reference other threads where archtiectural designs and so on are given by Elohim.
    I argue that the temple is based on a heavenly pattern, hence not derived from Sumeric/Babylonian or Greco-Roman style, as heaven and its buildings existed before these civilizations arose.

    I see in some of your words the assumption that Israel was more derivative of their neighbors than is necessarily the case; rather than this or that being borrowed from others, maybe they originated it, or inherited it from the antediluvians, the antediluvians basing it on a heavenly pattern, or what have you. (Shem survived the flood by many centures, and probably corresponded to Melchizedek.) I don't think Elohim decided for the priests to dress this way or give commandments and make utterances assuming people had cornered garments or houses with parapets or what have you simply because they had some these from before, so that his commands just conformed to the environment and pre-existing human culture.

    I think Elohim is in full control and designed the Hebrew language to be the most dignified, as the Rabbis state, and the temple architecture to be - per his standard - the most dignified (beautiful, numinous, pleasing) as well; and likewise he designs his own incense mixture designed to please him hence it is not simply a matter of "Elohim the Conformist" working with what raw materials were available.

    It is not a sin for a gentile culture to not have the concept of tallits, yet Elohim designed for his people to have tallits, and external, "superificial", things like that - and as people affiliated with Israel, I personally think we (Messianics) should treat the Israelite culture with the same reverence that Hindus treat Indic culture, Muslims treat Arabic culture, Shintoists treat Japanese culture, etc etc.

    And guess what?
    The attempt to honor / revere / revive / reconstruct (to whatever extent and for whatever purpose) a culture will require some trial-and-error.
    If at first you don't succeed or only get it partially right, so what? One can always try again.
     
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Shalom :)

    To be clear, I repeat that I am not of the mindset that it's a matter of sin or not sin - as the issue was on what's expected when it comes to reverence and examining what reverence is actually defined by. Having reverence for one's culture doesn't equate to reverence for the culture being monolithic or uniform in practice - and we can see this even as it concerns basics with Muslim and Hindu culture. Muslims from a Black or African dynamic are radically different from those Muslims in an Arabic perspective. And Hindu culture varies as well - dress and culture for those who are Untouchable/Dark Skinned Hindus are different from others who are Hindu believers in Christ or Jews within the Hindu system... Not everyone wears saris in Hindu culture nor holds them with reverence - nor does everyone in Muslim culture insist on the same kind of dress, as it concerns veils or other things.

    And in the same way, it also occurred within Israelite culture which adapted over time - never losing sight of the fact that all things were meant to be held sacred even though what was given in one setting of time was different than another.
    Actually, we do know historically that kilts were a part of Hebrew culture.

    For reference, one of the most excellent reads on the issue can be seen in The Rescue of Jerusalem: The Alliance Between Hebrews and Africans. (as well as here, here)..

    Ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Roman men generally wore some form of tunic. Ancient Egyptians wore a wrap skirt, similar to sarongs....but the tunics and skirts were very prevalent.
    In Israelite culture, I think what happens is often a cart before the horse in assuming that something being distinct in other cultures must somehow mean that Biblical culture either HAD to be distinct or was automatically distinct - and therefore, we go forward from there.

    And with tzitzit, it was something that did vary from place to place....distinct, even though it was not necessarily commanded. With the command dynamic, there are categories of commands and I think we should consider that. Some of this has been shared before, as seen here:



     
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    The temple itself is something based on a heavenly pattern, even though it cannot be avoided that many of the practices present in it were not in/of themselves out of nowhere.


    Interestingly enough, when seeing the ways pagan aspects were present within many of the Biblical Festivals themselves as well as Jewish culture, it does make you wonder. Many of the Feasts had elements directly in line with agricultural celebrations/festivals of the Cannanites...and there's a reason many Jewish scholars note how much of Ancient Israel borrowed elements/reinterpreted them at the direction of the Lord. Pagan feasts were celebrated around the same time of the year as was Passover...and in regards to things like Sabbath, it was already the case in Babylonia, long before the Exodus account, that the days Sabbath was done on were also done by Babylon...not for the sake of rest but rather because certain days were seen as unlucky days. For a good read on the issue:


    Additionally, as another believer noted best when discussing the issue of aspects of CHristmas people say are "pagan" and yet ignore where the same was present in Israel:
    If you’ve ever taken a study trip to Israel, one of the first sites you most likely saw was Gezer, only a few miles from the airport in Tel Aviv.

    There you will find a group of ancient standing stones (matzebot in Hebrew) that date from 1500 BC, when the Canaanites were in the land of Israel. They were part of the ancient practice of erecting stone pillars at pagan worship sites, and were often involved in worship of heavenly bodies.

    The practice dates from at least 5000 BC. Many sacred stone sites from 3000 BC and older can still be found in the Negev and Sinai desert, as well as around Europe and elsewhere. Stonehenge, from around 2500 BC, is another example.
    In theory, the pillar monument at Gezer should not be standing right now. God gave the Israelites explicit instructions to destroy all of the pagan standing stones in Israel:

    “Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones (matzebot) and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.” (Deuteronomy 12:3)

    But Gezer was a very strategic city and only rarely were Israelite kings in control of it (Judges 1:29, 1 Kings 9:16). So during very little of Israel’s ancient history could they have knocked down the stones of Gezer.

    Interestingly, Jacob used this practice to worship God after he had the vision of the heavenly staircase. There he erected a stone, anointed it, dedicated it to God and called it Bethel (Genesis 28:18-22). Even more surprisingly, after the Israelites crossed the Jordan, God himself commanded them to set up twelve stones to be a memorial to the miracle God did there. The text says,

    “When your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, `What are these stones?’ then you shall inform your children, saying, `Israel crossed this Jordan on dry ground.’ “For the LORD your God dried up the waters of the Jordan before you until you had crossed, just as the LORD your God had done to the Red Sea, which He dried up before us until we had crossed; that all the peoples of the earth may know that the hand of the LORD is mighty, so that you may fear the LORD your God forever.” (Joshua 4:21-24)

    Erecting standing stones, masebot, has been a pagan practice for millennia. Stonehenge is one example, the monoliths at Gezer are another. In Deuteronomy God instructs the Israelites to tear down those in the land (12:3) and not to put them up themselves because God *hates* them (16:2). But in Joshua, God specifically instructs the tribes to erect 12 standing stones (masebot) after they enter the land, in order to commemorate God’s action there. (Joshua 4:21-24) And Jacob erects stones at various places where he has an encounter with God, and this is considered an act of faithful worship (Gen 28:18 for example).


    But on the other hand, when a practice that God himself instituted becomes idolatrous, he abolishes it. In the desert, God told the Israelites to construct the bronze snake so that those who looked upon it would be healed (Numbers 21:8). But later in history, the bronze snake was used as an idol, so it had to be destroyed. (2 Kings 18:4).

    In both cases, a ritual’s origins were not a part of the decision as to whether it should be encouraged or stopped. What was important was how it was being used at the time, either to honor God or to worship idols.





    By all means I understand how and why you would believe as you do - as there are many things I've seen within Biblical culture that are unique. But there are many other things which were never unique even of themselves....and seeing where certain things are unique isn't the same as saying that NOTHING was not unique - thus, I don't see what appears to be a false scenario/false choice.
    He designed his own incense and mixture - that is true. And the same with the temple being beautiful and unique, even though there were many things the other cultures did - the concept of Cheribum not being unique to Israel when it came to what was present in temples and the same with using incense in offerings as well. His utilizing what was present in other cultures isn't about conforming - all things are made by the Lord.

    But how men abuse it is another issue - and thus, God shows the proper purpose thereof for it....
     
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Can one now claim that the Cannanite world wrapped temples/incense into a "nice package" and Israel accepted it when the Lord said that they were to accept the resources they had/use them for HIS Glory? Of course you wouldn't..

    Again, God commanded the Israelite priests to use incense, in worshiping Him, to represent the prayers of the people going up to him. But incense was used in pagan temples and burned to pagan gods, by the Egyptians, long before the LOM. Yet God took something the pagans used and used it for HIS glory. If HE can do that with incense, the list goes on....
    '
    Some cultures did use gardens/plants in worship of their gods---including gardening with flowers. When one remembers the nation of Babylon, people understand it was WELL-Known for its splendor. The book of Daniel discusses such, as seen in Daniel 4:35-37 when the King actually got punished with insanity for marveling at the Splendor of His kingdom/forgetting that it was God Himself who gave him his power/rose him up for his own purposes ( Jeremiah 25:8-10/ /Jeremiah 27:5-7 Jeremiah 43:9-11/ ). And with Babylon---wicked as it was, part of the splendor was due to it being known during its time for their extravagant Hanging Botanical Gardens.....once known as one of the Seven Wonders of the World — a manufactured mountain towering above the Babylonian plains, build by King Nebuchadnezzar II for his favorite wife, who was homesick for trees and mountains on the featureless Mesopotamian landscape, in what is now Iraq.


    [​IMG]

    Someone, seeing the way Babylon made gardens for worship APART from the Lord, could say that there was no other time God's people for ever for making splendid gardens. However, as the Word says, Solomon also was known for his passion for making lavish gardens...as seen in Ecclesiastes 2:4-6 / ...as he was also a student of BOTANY/plant life...


    Solomon's Wisdom

    29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. 30 Solomon's wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the men of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. 31 He was wiser than any other man, including Ethan the Ezrahite—wiser than Heman, Calcol and Darda, the sons of Mahol. And his fame spread to all the surrounding nations. 32 He spoke three thousand proverbs and his songs numbered a thousand and five. 33 He described plant life, from the cedar of Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of walls. He also taught about animals and birds, reptiles and fish. 34 Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon's wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.
    I undertook great projects: I built houses for myself and planted vineyards. 5 I made gardens and parks and planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. 6 I made reservoirs to water groves of flourishing trees.





    Also, God told his people, before being exiled into Babylon for idolatry, to build gardens also---as seen in Jeremiah 29:4-6 when it came to God saying to them to pray for the welfare of the city they dwelled in--with it being the case prior that He gave them gardens/vineyards of their own that the previous "pagan" nations had already used...as seen in Deuteronomy 6:10-12 /Joshua 24:12-14 /


    For another example relevant to the issue when it comes to cultures using things we do in the Lord, one can consider the ways flowers are utilized in India. For a good read, go online and look up the article entitled "Floraculture and the Sensorium" ( //www.jstor.org/pss/682311 )--as it goes through the historical/sacred perspectives of flowers in differing cultures....including how many times they were offered up in sacrifices in place of offering blood to idols.

    One can also go ONLINE and look up [FONT=arial, helvetica]"[/FONT]Food, Flowers and Perfume" ( //www.shivashakti.com/food.htm ) or they can look up"Temple worship and Rituals(4 of 5) -- Flowers- their importance in temple worship" ( //ssubbanna.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/11/temple-worship-and-rituals-4-of-flowers-their-importance.htm ).

    As said in an excerpt from one of the articles, as it relates to Flowers used in worship within Southern India:



    [FONT=arial, helvetica][​IMG][/FONT]

    Offering flowers to the deity during the upachara is an integral and an important part of worship. It signifies submission of self to the Lord.
    There is also an opinion that suggests , Puja representing submission of flowers to the deity with devotion and reverence is mainly a practice derived from Southern India. According to them, the term puja is derived from Pu meaning flower in southern languages.

    Flowers constitute an important article of worship. The image in the sanctum is decorated with garlands flowers and with unstrung flowers. The flowers are offered to the deity at several stages in worship. Flowers gladden the heart and mind; and confer prosperity. Flowers offered with devotion gratify the Lord. The devotees who visit the temple also offer flowers as token of love and devotion.

    Mahabharata (Anushasana parva- Section-xcviii) describes the flowers fit for offering to deities:” Flowers are of diverse kinds. Some are wild; some grow in the midst of humans and even among them, some do not grow well unless nurtured with great care. Some flowers are from plants grown on mountains; some are from trees that are not prickly; and some from trees that are prickly. Fragrance, beauty of form and taste are also the reasons for their classification. The scent that flowers yield is of two kinds, agreeable and not agreeable. The flowers that emit agreeable scent should be offered to deities. Flowers of plants that are not prickly are generally white in color. Such flowers are acceptable to deities. One desirous of wisdom should offer garlands of aquatic flowers like lotus.

    Flowers of plants born on mountains and in vales and of sweet scent and aspect sprinkled with sandal paste should be duly offered to Gods. Such offerings gratify the Gods.

    The flowers of the following nature are not fit for worship of deities: Flowers of disagreeable scent and aspect; blood -red or black flowers; flowers painful to touch; flowers grown on plants full of thorns; and flowers grown on plants of burial and cremation grounds “

    Agama texts classify flowers fit for worship according to their color, fragrance, shape and origin. They prescribe the type of flowers that may be used in worship. They also mention about flowers that may not be used in worship. In general, flowers that carry a strong odor or that are odorless; flowers un-blossomed or too old; flowers bitten by insects or otherwise mutilated; and flowers picked and kept unused for a day or more are to be avoided. Flowers grown in a garden ( aarama) are considered best; flowers collected from forest (vana) rank next; and flowers bought (vikrita) are inferior.





    Of course, this is simply one way a culture uses flowers/flower design in their worship to whomever they follow. But the fact remains that the usage of flowers was done UNTO another God. Already is it established in scripture that Gods own temple--which King Solomon built--had flowers in it as well

    1 Kings 6:17-19
    The inside of the temple was cedar, carved with gourds and open flowers. Everything was cedar; no stone was to be seen.

    1 Kings 6:28-30
    On the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers.
    1 Kings 6:31-33
    And on the two olive wood doors he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid the cherubim and palm trees with beaten gold.

    The issue of utilizing flowerly designs also occurred earlier in Exodus, as seen in Exodus 25:30-32 /Exodus 25:33-35 /Exodus 37:16-18 /Exodus 37:19-21 ...and with Solomon, anyone reading the text of I Kings 8-9 understands that God Himself was pleased with the work done by Solomon/others in building the temple--and one can go here for more on the usage of flowers/symbols of flowers in God's house.....as His very prescence blessed it and all were amazed. However, it has been established (By the logic of many) that somehow an item or custom used in one place for an idolatrous purpose means that any other usage of such in a differing culture either means that the new ones using it have the same intentions/motives---or, even if they are doing it for differing reasons, they are still offending God by "reminding" him of something he hates......yet by the standard of scripture, that form of "logic" does not make God out to look consistent. For as it is, many religions/cultures were involving flowers as apart of worship in their respective temples LONG before Judaism ever came on the scene. And of course, as the earth belongs to the Lord/all men are aware of the existence of a Supreme Being, perhaps its more than clear that offering parts of the earth to HIM was a hard-wired part of how we were to honor him------except, due to man's sin, that others chose to use it for other darker purposes. As seen in scripture, God was fine with Himself/others using things others took for bad..things that HE made first/owns.

    Yet even Muslims and Hindus are not universal in how they treat their culture since they know it varies - and the same goes for Ancient Israelite culture. I think if we're going to respect them, we have to keep that factor in mind at all time when it comes to knowing how Messianics actually identified..

    Of course one can always try again - and yet on the same token, knowing whether or not others were commanded to try is what determines everything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  7. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    (Why) is the Messianic movement primarlily found in the western world ?
     
  8. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    "Of course one can always try again - and yet on the same token, knowing whether or not others were commanded to try is what determines everything."

    Israel is Israel. It's not - necessarily - a matter of sin or not sin. One can do things even though it is not soteriological. I think modern Israelites should make some kind of effort to intimate their past, and not just (in the attempt to be as different from Muslims as possible) reject their past, being the past world of David, Gideon, Joshua, Samson, Solomon, etc.

    "- the concept of Cheribum not being unique to Israel when it came to what was present in temples"

    Hehe.... well, the Kerubim are either spirits in heaven (their shapes described in Ezek. 1 and 10, and perhaps in Revelation) or not. If they are heavenly spirits (with features of bulls, lions, eagles etc) they would predate any Lammasu or Garuda conceptions found in other cultures. I tend to believe the Bible so to speak, and not just dismiss it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Actually the earliest trace of it in "modern" times is in Europe during the 1800's formed by a Rabbi and his synagogue following.
     
  10. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Wisdom! :thumbsup:
     
  11. 14messenger

    14messenger Well-Known Member

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    Attempting to image what a Jew would do in the light, in control.
     
  12. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    ...the eternal question. What does God's religion look like? Like the Arab cultural Imperialism of Islam? Or the inculturated Hindi centered architecture of Hinduism.....or the Gothic cathedrals of Europe? Or the functional buildings of low church Protestantism?

    How about none of the above?

    From Acts 7:

    48 "Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says,

    49“‘Heaven is my throne,
    and the earth is my footstool.
    What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord,
    or what is the place of my rest?
    50 Did not my hand make all these things?’"

    There is no religion- Biblical or otherwise- that is not in some way like the culture it comes from. Even the Torah looks in many regards much like other ancient near Eastern religions that preceded it.

    What you're saying is good- you are arguing for a distinctive way of standing out from the culture around you. But you are looking to the physical- a common religious notion- to solve the problem.

    But the world doesn't need more religious people outwardly looking different or having distinctive buildings or clothing- we've got too many of them already.

    "For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed." Rom 8:19

    You think creation is waiting for more religion? I don't think so. It's a saturated market out there.

    What will make Messianics or believers in general stand out is when they are manifested as the children of God- eg. changed people with purified hearts following the commandments to love God and neighbour with a spiritual love that cannot be explained away. Twice-born people changing the world.

    So....what are we all waiting for? Start manifesting, children!
     
  13. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Worship God and love neighbour.

    Happens all the time.

    PS: do I sense a hint of anti-semitism there?
     
  14. mercy1061

    mercy1061 Newbie

    +114
    Messianic
    Married
    The ark of the covenant and tabernacle were built (torah) according to the heavenly pattern , not the temple.
     
  15. mercy1061

    mercy1061 Newbie

    +114
    Messianic
    Married
    Tabernacle which means dwelling place and ark of the covenant were already built prior to Solomon's temple. Why did Adonai need an additional dwelling place? He already dwelt in David's tent built by Moses according to the heavenly pattern. Pharisee Shaul was a tentmaker.
     
  16. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private


    :thumbsup:


    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]


    Matthew 6:27 ~ "Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?" :)
     
  17. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

    +240
    Married
    US-Republican
    I Believe It Is Largely Owing To The Influence Of British, And Later American, Missionary Zeal.
     
  18. MWood

    MWood Newbie

    +7,965
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican

    Another well said message Contra!
     
  19. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Guest

    +0
    America has extended more friendship to Jews and to Israel than any other nation on planet earth. Yes, one can find many mucho things to complain about (e.g. replacement theology), but that doesn’t change the fact that America has been an ally to the nation of Israel.

    Also,consider the growing number of Hebraic/Jewish Roots of Christianity and Messianic Judaism programming on Christian TV over the past ten years (Romans 1:16). Just one of many examples is the Messianic Vision of Sid Roth as well as his TV program, It’s Supernatural, that’s now broadcast worldwide. :)

    Your pre-exilic Hebrew reminds me of those that yearn for the 'good old days' of a culture as if the 'good old days' were actually all that good.

     
  20. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

    +240
    Married
    US-Republican
    Huh? "Pre-exilic Hebrew"?

    Did I miss something?
     
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