The Messianic Movement: A Western Subculture ?

Hoshiyya

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Is the Messianic movement merely a subculture, product, of the West ?
Does it reflect the Way of the ancient heroes, prophets, sages of the Bible and ancient Israel (in the same sense Hinduism currently reflects the ancient Hindu way and Islam reflects the ancient Islamic way) ?

As an example, Tehillim/Psalms being the largest book of the Bible, one would expect music to be an important part of worship. Exodus and the other books of the Torah being concerned with how people shall dress, eat, etc. one would expect that these "superficial" or external things would have value, yet they are almost impossible for the modern man to even visualize, as is evident in the amateurish quality of most "Jesus movies."
[FONT=HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]
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[FONT=HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]I feel like most Messianics and for that matter most people making "Hebrew music", "Hebrew art" etc. have some kind of agenda rather than being historical reconstructionists, so it may well be that this culture is lost forever, musically, artistically, architecturally and otherwise. And these things have value, don't you agee?
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How can a culture be said to be living, if it is not expressed in mediums such as these?
It seems the Messianic movement is just another Western (and hence Greek-Roman-Catholic-German-American) subculture rather than having anything truly to do with the Maccabees, Israelites or pre-exilic Jews.

As opposed to the contra- or anti-Hellenic Maccabees, and the simply non-Hellenic ancient Israelites, the modern Messianic/Nazarene/etc. seems to be part of the Western, and hence (ultimately) the Greco-Roman culture, which is saddening.
 
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ErezY

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Do you consider yourself part of the Western hochkultur?
If so to what extent?

Maybe to the extent that I realize there is no other place to 'be' or live than in the present moment, and culture that I am raised in. You want I to live like it were 1948 bce?
 
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Hoshiyya

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Maybe to the extent that I realize there is no other place to 'be' or live than in the present moment, and culture that I am raised in. You want I to live like it were 1948 bce?

1. "to the extent that I realize there is no other place to 'be' or live than in the present moment, and culture that I am raised in" - Is it really so?

2. Do you recognize that there is a difference between the ancient Israelite, pre-exilic Jewish, Maccabee way, and the modern Western way, built as it is on the Greco-Roman heritage ?

3. Are you one of those seeking to problematize and hence not answer, or one of those seeking to provide some kind of answer, to the questions posed and inferred ?
 
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ErezY

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1. "to the extent that I realize there is no other place to 'be' or live than in the present moment, and culture that I am raised in" - Is it really so?

2. Do you recognize that there is a difference between the ancient Israelite, pre-exilic Jewish, Maccabee way, and the modern Western way, built as it is on the Greco-Roman heritage ?
How can one not live in the moment, as a way of life?

Yes, I recognize the difference, and I also understand that even the 'pre-exilic' as you term it struggeled with very similar differences. They were split on which 'way' was THE way just as much, if not more.
 
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Hoshiyya

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How can one not live in the moment, as a way of life?

Yes, I recognize the difference, and I also understand that even the 'pre-exilic' as you term it struggeled with very similar differences. They were split on which 'way' was THE way just as much, if not more.

Invoking "THE" way seems to be, or may just be, a way to problematize further investigation, thought or debate. Clearly there is a difference between (1) the general Greco-Roman and (derivate) modern Western way(s) and (2) the general pre-exilic Hebrew way(s).
 
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ErezY

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Invoking "THE" way seems to be just a way to problematize further investigation, thought or debate. Clearly there is a difference between (1) the general Greco-Roman and (derivate) modern Western way(s) and (2) the general pre-exilic Hebrew way(s).
Sure, a difference, but how should that affect me now? Here, in this place and time?
 
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Hoshiyya

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People, How can a culture be said to be living, if it is not expressed in mediums such as the ones I mentioned? (ie artistic, musical, visual, architectural.)

And the distinct Biblical Hebrew culture is, to my current understanding, sadly not being expressed in such ways, and hence not truly living, and any pretense to the contrary is mere Western fantasy.
Is this state of affairs however a necessary - temporal - condition, or is it a permanent situation ?
 
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Hoshiyya

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Sure, a difference, but how should that affect me now? Here, in this place and time?

Are you (1) asking me a question here, or (2) justifying to youself not thinking more about the points I've raised or at least tried to raise?
I have a hard time telling who is a true seeker and who is merely wasting theirs and my time.
 
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ErezY

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Are you (1) asking me a question here, or (2) justifying to youself not thinking more about the points I've raised or at least tried to raise?
I have a hard time telling who is a true seeker and who is merely wasting theirs and my time.
Im noticing how you respond to my questions with questions. Take it easy man. It's all good. I'll let you be. Peace
 
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Hoshiyya

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People, How can a culture be said to be living, if it is not expressed in mediums such as the ones I mentioned? (ie artistic, musical, visual, architectural.)

And the distinct Biblical Hebrew culture is, to my current understanding, sadly not being expressed in such ways, and hence not truly living, and any pretense to the contrary is mere Western fantasy.
Is this state of affairs however a necessary - temporal - condition, or is it a permanent situation ?

Like I said, do we start out in our native culture(s) and (gradually) build toward the Way of God, the Way laid out in the Bible by the example of the patriarchs, prophets and the Meshiach, and disengage from our native way, or do we mainly and ultimately stay put in the way(s) of the West, built as they are on the heritage of the Hellenic culture which waged war against the Maccabees/Israelites ?
 
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Hoshiyya

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Im noticing how you respond to my questions with questions. Take it easy man. It's all good. I'll let you be. Peace

I do have a lot of questions, and indeed, you seem to respond to my questions with questions also. If this should be uncongenial to you, so be it.

"How should that affect me" so do you want me to try to answer this or not?
 
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Hoshiyya

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To express my disappointment with a movement that nevertheless has much potential, and at the risk of being characterized as a grumpy antagonist, I will describe an episode from my own life.
It is recommended one read carefully, and not jump to conclusions.
Here and there I may seem to be generalizing or speaking very absolutely, but that type of rhetoric you will find all over the world as well as in the Bible. (Indeed, one cannot avoid it.)

I remember asking an American Messianic Rabbi, who claimed to have many converts in Indonesia:
if you have enough success in Indonesia to merit building a synagogue (by itself too "big picture" and "long term" a question for an amateur as himself) what architectural style would that synagogue be built according to ?
The Indonesian ?
Or the Western, based as it is on the Greco-Roman style, (which would be congenial to or harmonize with the Catholic-derivate type of religion this particular Rabbi was associated with) ?
Or would it be built in some Levantine / middle-eastern style, if so which (as there are several such styles) ?
Needless to say this unambitious man, symbolic as he was for the Messianic movement in general (I'm sad to say), had no answer, having apparently never even visualized his religion having any growth or success.***
Whereas the well-developed world-religions on the other hand, such as Hinduism, Catholicism and Islam, all offer a full package, having their own architecture, music, clothing, visual art, et cetera, and being eager to express themselves in all these mediums.
The Messianics (seemingly) offer no alternative to these. They are not a "peculiar people" as Scripture commands, but rather a Western subculture.
Like the Catholic Church from which they spiritually derive, they carry forward the West's Greco-Roman heritage, and spit on the contra- or anti-Hellenic ethos of the Maccabees to whom they pay mere lip-service.
In Islam or Hinduism you will never encounter the saying "when in Rome."
For the Messianics however, being "in Rome" is their entire foundation.
There is nothing (or very little) of the Maccabee - the Israelite - spirit in them.


***if further pressed however he would certainly have revealed the ineluctable, namely that the synagogue would have been built according to the Western style, consistent as it is with his Western religion.
This religion being slightly Ashkenazified Protestantism.
 
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Hoshiyya

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And so I wonder, are we (Messianics, and I basically have nothing else to call myself) in a process of "purification" and of detaching from this world and its world-systems and thereby becoming less defined by our Western (external) environment, and if so to what extent, OR are we to "remain as we are," and if so, to what extent?
Are there limits to how Israelite we may become, or limits to how far we may stray from our upbringing?
Are there limits to how far we may come out when responding to that Scriptural call "come out, come out of her my people" ?
 
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MadMaxData

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People, How can a culture be said to be living, if it is not expressed in mediums such as the ones I mentioned? (ie artistic, musical, visual, architectural.)

And the distinct Biblical Hebrew culture is, to my current understanding, sadly not being expressed in such ways, and hence not truly living, and any pretense to the contrary is mere Western fantasy.
Is this state of affairs however a necessary - temporal - condition, or is it a permanent situation ?

Like I said, do we start out in our native culture(s) and (gradually) build toward the Way of God, the Way laid out in the Bible by the example of the patriarchs, prophets and the Meshiach, and disengage from our native way, or do we mainly and ultimately stay put in the way(s) of the West, built as they are on the heritage of the Hellenic culture which waged war against the Maccabees/Israelites ?
Wait a minute. Did you just quote yourself? ^_^
 
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Yoseft

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Tehillim/Psalms being the largest book of the Bible, one would expect music to be an important part of worship. Exodus and the other books of the Torah being concerned with how people shall dress, eat, etc. one would expect that these "superficial" or external things would have value, yet they are almost impossible for the modern man to even visualize, as is evident in the amateurish quality of most "Jesus movies."
[FONT=HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]I feel like most Messianics and for that matter most people making "Hebrew music", "Hebrew art" etc. have some kind of agenda rather than being historical reconstructionists, so it may well be that this culture is lost forever, musically, artistically, architecturally and otherwise. And these things have value, don't you agee?
[/FONT]


How can a culture be said to be living, if it is not expressed in mediums such as these?
It seems the Messianic movement is just another Western (and hence Greek-Roman-Catholic-German-American) subculture rather than having anything truly to do with the Maccabees, Israelites or pre-exilic Jews.

As opposed to the contra- or anti-Hellenic Maccabees, and the simply non-Hellenic ancient Israelites, the modern Messianic/Nazarene/etc. seems to be part of the Western, and hence (ultimately) the Greco-Roman culture, which is saddening.

Yep Music I listen to is straight from Rome...Sigh
Bless You OP
Pray ask The Most High for insight, click, listen with your inner man
/ spirit and close you eyes while you listen.

Karen Davis - Ata Tzuri - Lyrics and Translation - YouTube
 
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visionary

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God is going to have a great stew, full of robust flavor, each embodying the aspects that are their own but reflect what God intended. Music, clothing, traditions, habits, food, architectural nuances are all part of the freedom of expression God allows within His kingdom. I picture His world to come, not to harmoniously bland to one culture but to each as unique as the galaxies, world, stars of His universe. The only requirement is obedience to His commands. Whether it is celebrated with hoopla, or subdued reverence, it still is for the love of Him. This is where Messianic Judaism can separate itself from copycatting Orthodox Judaism and be its own in love and honor to Yeshua.
 
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