The Mark of the Beast

[Messenger 3k]

This is not correct. What makes you think so?


I referred to what Paul says in Rom. 9-11, if you read this you will understand that it is not about being saved without Christ, but about Israel as a whole turning to Christ.


This will change, as foretold by Paul.

Please stop using your presupposition in reading into my words what I never said nor meant. If you see an inconsistency, ask, and I will explain it, or correct myself, depending on the biblical arguments you bring to me.

Wrong.

That scripture is saying nothing like that.

Had quite enough of scripture misinterpretations.

Paul is saying God has set aside for Himself a remnant of Israel who believe in Jesus Christ out of the vast majority of unbelieving Jews so as to be saved by grace and not by works. Simple.

These are ethnic Jews who are believers; messianic Jews if you prefer, and they're a 144,000 in number.

Towards the last half of tribulation they will be marked on their foreheads by God and will all gather to a certain place in the wilderness where they'll be kept safe for three and half years. Yes, they are the only ones to be exempted from the mark of the beast.

Currently there are about 20,000 messianic Jews in Isreal if I'm not mistaken. The rest will come from the northern countries like Syria, some will come from the east as far as Asia, and some will come from Africa to make up the 144,000.

As is expected, there are people thinking they can cheat the divine process as it's become more of a religious movement which apparently allows people to convert into becoming a member. I may be wrong on that but God knows those who are His.

There's no cheating the process because the remnant must be an ethnic born Jew who believes in Jesus Christ and there's no faking that.

 

[helmut]

That scripture is saying nothing like that.

Had quite enough of scripture misinterpretations.

Paul is saying God has set aside for Himself a remnant of Israel who believe in Jesus Christ out of the vast majority of unbelieving Jews so as to be saved by grace and not by works. Simple.

Rom 11,25 Brothers and sisters, here is a mystery I want you to understand. It will keep you from being proud. Part of Israel has refused to obey God. That will continue until the full number of non‑Jews has entered God's kingdom. 26 And so all Israel will be saved.

A part does not yet believe, but all Israel will be saved. Whats wrong with what I wrote?

QUOTE="Messenger 3k, post: 73739040, member: 411988"]Towards the last half of tribulation they will be marked on their foreheads by God and will all gather to a certain place in the wilderness where they'll be kept safe for three and half years. Yes, they are the only ones to be exempted from the mark of the beast.[/QUOTE]
Where do I find that in Scripture?

 

[Messenger 3k]

Rom 11,25 Brothers and sisters, here is a mystery I want you to understand. It will keep you from being proud. Part of Israel has refused to obey God. That will continue until the full number of non‑Jews has entered God's kingdom. 26 And so all Israel will be saved.

A part does not yet believe, but all Israel will be saved. Whats wrong with what I wrote

Here, a simpler version;

Romans 11:25-26,
"I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in; and so [at that time] all Israel [that is, all Jews who have a personal faith in Jesus as Messiah] will be saved; just as it is written [in Scripture]..." (AMP)

...just as it is written in scripture, especially referring to Isaiah 59:20,

"A Redeemer (Messiah) will come to Zion,
And to those in Jacob (Israel) who turn from transgression (sin),” declares the Lord." (AMP)


God has made the Jews disobedient so that those who are saved amongst them are saved by grace (mercy). Just as we gentiles were all once disobedient and those of us who were saved became saved by God's grace. That is God's mystery being explained by Paul.

Here, scriptures concerning sealing and protection of the remnant:

Revelation 7:4-8, 12:1-17

 

[shilohsfoal]

This is not correct. What makes you think so?


I referred to what Paul says in Rom. 9-11, if you read this you will understand that it is not about being saved without Christ, but about Israel as a whole turning to Christ.


This will change, as foretold by Paul.

Please stop using your presupposition in reading into my words what I never said nor meant. If you see an inconsistency, ask, and I will explain it, or correct myself, depending on the biblical arguments you bring to me.

Well,Israel amounts to 144,000 according to revelation.144000 sealed marked with Gods name i thier forehead.So Paul was right.All 144,000 will be saved.

As for the antichrist jews who fie daily without Christ.They are not saved .Even thoughthey lived in Israrl and called themsrlves Israel,they are not saved.
Now you explain why Paul didnt include them .But to get back on,the subject of the beast lets see if you understand his verse.

Amos 5:26 NIV: You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god -- which you made for yourselves.

After rejecting Christ ,the true king,they have elected to choose thier own king.
Who is thier king,and his symbol( the star)which they worship?

 

[helmut]

Here, a simpler version;

A version with a lot of [...] that is not in the original, but inserted to "amplify" a special exegesis. But who says this exegesis is correct?

Here, scriptures concerning sealing and protection of the remnant:
Revelation 7:4-8, 12:1-17

"Remnant" is not there, again you read something into the text that is not there.

So where in Scripture is the base for such interpretations? All Israel only a remnant?

 

[helmut]

Well,Israel amounts to 144,000 according to revelation.

Is this a real number or a symbolic figure? Paul did not tell a number, and Revelation is full of symbols ...

As for the antichrist jews who fie daily without Christ.They are not saved .Even thoughthey lived in Israrl and called themsrlves Israel,they are not saved.

Is "fie" a taping error for "die"? If yes: Well, unless they got at the faith in God who justifies the unjust, Ro 4:5, they will not be saved. If no: Please explain.
But in the end, when all Israel will be saved, it is all Israel and not a part.

But to get back on,the subject of the beast lets see if you understand his verse.

Amos 5:26 NIV: You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god -- which you made for yourselves.

This is said about Israel in the time of the desert. Just look into the previous verse.

Do you want to lure me into a symbolic meaning of this verse, where there is no reason to look after symbolism, while demanding a literal meaning in a verse that might well be symbolic?
Such method does not look like sound exegesis.

 

[Messenger 3k]

A version with a lot of [...] that is not in the original, but inserted to "amplify" a special exegesis. But who says this exegesis is correct?

"Remnant" is not there, again you read something into the text that is not there.

So where in Scripture is the base for such interpretations? All Israel only a remnant?

This is like asking me "where in the bible does it explicitly say there's a 7 years tribulation?".

Do you study scriptures by relying on your understanding or relying on the Holy Spirit who teaches all things?

Will all of scripture be laid out plainly to you? If so, then what's the point of having revelations? If the message is hidden, isn't it hidden to those who are perishing?

If everything was meant to be spelled out plainly in scriptures then Jesus wouldn't have spoken in parables. In the end, He spoke in parables so that some would see and not perceive, they would hear and not understand.

Study and meditate on those scriptures again, relying on God and you'll understand.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Is this a real number or a symbolic figure? Paul did not tell a number, and Revelation is full of symbols ...


Is "fie" a taping error for "die"? If yes: Well, unless they got at the faith in God who justifies the unjust, Ro 4:5, they will not be saved. If no: Please explain.
But in the end, when all Israel will be saved, it is all Israel and not a part.


This is said about Israel in the time of the desert. Just look into the previous verse.

Do you want to lure me into a symbolic meaning of this verse, where there is no reason to look after symbolism, while demanding a literal meaning in a verse that might well be symbolic?
Such method does not look like sound exegesis.

The 144000 is an exact number.In fact the scripture says 12000 from each twelve tribes listed.So no,thete is nothing sybolic about it.

Amos 5:26 You have taken along Sakkuth your king and Kaiwan your star god, the idols you made for yourselves.

As for this verse.Kept in context of the message,this is one of the reason the israels are cast out of the kingdom on the day of the Lord just as Jesus said in the gospel.

Amos 5:18 NIV: Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD? That day will be darkness, not light.

It has eeverything to do with the timeof the end when the Lord comes.

 

[helmut]

This is like asking me "where in the bible does it explicitly say there's a 7 years tribulation?".

It's in Daniel, and as every OT prophet, he speaks of the time before the coming of the Messiah, and does not differentiate between first and second coming of Christ. As can be seen in Dan 7, when he sees the empires up to the time of Christ, the the ascension of the son of man to God and the end of the world. The time of the Church was hidden from the OT prophets. The beast in Rev 13 is combined of all four beasts in Dan 7, Daniel himself does not speak about it.

You need wisdom lest you confuse prophesies for different ages: The abomination of desolation was fulfilled in the times of the Maccabees, and again in the time of the destruction of the temple (the fights between different Zelotic sects, one of them had its headquarter in the tabernacle), will there be a third fulfillment in the very last age? Revelation gives no hint to that.

The tribulation foretold by Daniel also had a fulfillment in the times of Antioch IV "Epiphanes". Will the fulfillment in the last days be a tribulation of Jews or of non-Jewish believers? The Jews being sealed and the non-Jews going through the great tribulation point at a difference that is not in accordance with your picture ...

Do you study scriptures by relying on your understanding or relying on the Holy Spirit who teaches all things?

You are not the holy spirit I rely on. There are many in church history who thought they were led by the Holy Spirit and yet they had a wrong understanding of the signs of their time.

I rely on the Holy Spirit, He gave me indśights, and I rely that He will show me (and others) what is necessary.

If everything was meant to be spelled out plainly in scriptures then Jesus wouldn't have spoken in parables. In the end, He spoke in parables so that some would see and not perceive, they would hear and not understand.

So the question is: is it you or me who does not understand?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No,i dont believe that translation of the "Ghay".

 

[Messenger 3k]

It's in Daniel, and as every OT prophet, he speaks of the time before the coming of the Messiah, and does not differentiate between first and second coming of Christ. As can be seen in Dan 7, when he sees the empires up to the time of Christ, the the ascension of the son of man to God and the end of the world. The time of the Church was hidden from the OT prophets. The beast in Rev 13 is combined of all four beasts in Dan 7, Daniel himself does not speak about it.

You need wisdom lest you confuse prophesies for different ages: The abomination of desolation was fulfilled in the times of the Maccabees, and again in the time of the destruction of the temple (the fights between different Zelotic sects, one of them had its headquarter in the tabernacle), will there be a third fulfillment in the very last age? Revelation gives no hint to that.

The tribulation foretold by Daniel also had a fulfillment in the times of Antioch IV "Epiphanes". Will the fulfillment in the last days be a tribulation of Jews or of non-Jewish believers? The Jews being sealed and the non-Jews going through the great tribulation point at a difference that is not in accordance with your picture ...


You are not the holy spirit I rely on. There are many in church history who thought they were led by the Holy Spirit and yet they had a wrong understanding of the signs of their time.

I rely on the Holy Spirit, He gave me indśights, and I rely that He will show me (and others) what is necessary.


So the question is: is it you or me who does not understand?

It's you who doesn't understand. It's me who's given up on long explanations.

Did you miss the word "explicitly"? Where in Daniel does it exactly say there's a 7 years tribulation? Don't show me where it's implied. Otherwise aren't you also asking that I settle for your inference?

Saying the 144,000 in Revelation aren't the Jewish remnant because you didn't see the word "remnant" there leaves me baffled on how to explain things to you.

Revelation also doesn't explicitly mention the word "abomination of desolation" so even though it's there, you miss it because you rely on your own understanding. Tell me, what kind of abomination of desolation are you expecting to see? The previous ones were set up in God's temple but now there is no temple. Or at least God has chosen not to dwell in one any longer. So what kind of AoD are you looking out for? Discernment is key.

I've in-depth knowledge on pseudepigraphical literatures so you don't need to tell me about Antiochus. I know more about him than you possibly do. I've read the book of Maccabees, the book of Enoch, the book of Jasher, Apocalypse of Baruch, Ascension of Isaiah, testament of Abraham, Apocalypse of Moses, Book of Jubilees...believe me the list goes on and on.

But utterly foolish I would be if I relied on these knowledge alone and not on the leading of the Holy Spirit and the revelation God provides. So I know well to avoid fruitless arguments.

 

[helmut]

Luke 21:20 “Whenever ye see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that nigh is Her desolation.

The Christians well remembered this, and when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, they took the first opportunity to flee (given when Vespasian was declared emperor, and withdrew from Jerusalem, so until Titus came back with the troops they could flee from Jerusalem).

Jesus did not know when he would return (Mt 24:36), and he did not separate the two questions of the disciples (Mk 13:4) about the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world. The length of the time of the nations (Lk 21:24) was not known to OT prophets (cf. Eph 3:5) nor to Jesus (at that time). We now know that there are millennia between the fulfillment of Lk 21:20 and Lk 21:25.

Not to discern these two issues (the destruction of Jerusalem about 40 years after Jesus' ministry on earth and the very last time of the world in the time of the beast) will lead to wrong conclusions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Christians well remembered this, and when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, they took the first opportunity to flee (given when Vespasian was declared emperor, and withdrew from Jerusalem, so until Titus came back with the troops they could flee from Jerusalem).

Jesus did not know when he would return (Mt 24:36), and he did not separate the two questions of the disciples (Mk 13:4) about the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world. The length of the time of the nations (Lk 21:24) was not known to OT prophets (cf. Eph 3:5) nor to Jesus (at that time). We now know that there are millennia between the fulfillment of Lk 21:20 and Lk 21:25.

Not to discern these two issues (the destruction of Jerusalem about 40 years after Jesus' ministry on earth and the very last time of the world in the time of the beast) will lead to wrong conclusions.

Most scholars agree the Luke 21 was fulfilled in 70ad, but there are also many verses in Luke 21 that are also in Revelation, tying Luke 21 in with Revelation
Of that there is no dispute......

I am in the process of harmonizing Luke 21 with Revelation, now that I have the Olived Discourse harmonized.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:15
`Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolating, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood in a place, holy (the one-reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) let him be understanding) [Luke 21:20 Revelation 1:3]

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772). [Revelation 1:3]

24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]

And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]
===================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723), and the ones hearing,[Matthew 24:15]
the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it/her having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), [Luke 21:22]
for the Time is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 11: 2
and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months. [Luke 21:24]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed. [Luke 21:24]
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Most scholars agree the Luke 21 was fulfilled in 70ad, but there are also many verses in Luke 21 that are also in Revelation, tying Luke 21 in with Revelation
Of that there is no dispute......

I am in the process of harmonizing Luke 21 with Revelation, now that I have the Olived Discourse harmonized.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:15
`Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolating, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood in a place, holy (the one-reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) let him be minding/understanding) [Luke 21:20 Revelation 1:3]

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772). [Revelation 1:3]

24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]

And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]
===================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723), and the ones hearing,[Matthew 24:15]
the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it/her having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), [Luke 21:22]
for the Time is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 11: 2
and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months. [Luke 21:24]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed. [Luke 21:24]
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

Ps.dont forget to harmise with Daniel 11.
The time tye gentiles tread jerusalem under foot is from,the time the daily sacrifice is abolished to the time the abomination of desolation is placed.
What happens is the king of the norths millitary occupies jerusalem fir thosr 42 months .Then the beast(ten horns) destroys his military and tskes control of jerusalem.This infuriates the king of the north and he responds by ordering his millitary to use the abomination that causes desolation destroying most of the middle east and north africa.

Daniel 11:44 But news from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will go out with great fury to destroy many and devote them to destruction.

This ends the occupation of the gentiles in Jerusalem.

 

[helmut]

It's you who doesn't understand. It's me who's given up on long explanations.

I missed the point you aimed at with the 7 years. I thought that you meant to say I'm asking for things that are quite self-evident. Sorry, my fault.

Saying the 144,000 in Revelation aren't the Jewish remnant because you didn't see the word "remnant" there leaves me baffled on how to explain things to you.

It's not just that the word isn't there.

The "remnant" is a theme on the OT: from the "northern" Israel, only a remnant will survive. This came true, the only person in the NT identified as a descendant of one of the 10 tribes is Hanna in Lk 2. The prophecy that only a remnant will survive came true, and (BTW) there is no need to search for "Lost tribes" - what is lost, is lost, and the remnant is now part of the Jews. And as to Judah, there also much was lost due to the Babylonians (and Judaeans fleeing to Egypt, see Jeremiah for more details).

Paul uses the theme in Rom 9:27-28 to describe the believers from the Jews as a remnant. If he wanted to say that only they would be saved, this would imply that what are now Jews are no part of the remnant, because those believers were part of the Christian church, and their descendants (unless they left Christianity at some times) are part of the Church until now.

But Paul does not stop at this remnant theme, he says that we believers from the pagans are used as a means to evoke the eagerness of the Jews, so they would turn to the Lord. When the number of the gentiles is full, the blindness on Israel will be removed and all Israel will be saved.

And then, when I look into Revelation, it speaks of Israel being protected (Rev 12) and sealed (Rev 7), while the believers from the nation had to go through the great tribulation. Not the Jewish believers.

It is not just that there is the word remnant missing, there is counter-evidence to your way reading it into Revelation.

Revelation also doesn't explicitly mention the word "abomination of desolation" so even though it's there, you miss it because you rely on your own understanding.

I didn't say there would not be a third fulfillment of this prophecy. But what you hint at is not what I would call a fulfillment, but rather a sort of analogy.

I've in-depth knowledge on pseudepigraphical literatures so you don't need to tell me about Antiochus. I know more about him than you possibly do. I've read the book of Maccabees, the book of Enoch, the book of Jasher, Apocalypse of Baruch, Ascension of Isaiah, testament of Abraham, Apocalypse of Moses, Book of Jubilees...believe me the list goes on and on.

Got it, you know more than me on that, I didn't look in much of pseudepigraphical literature, more into "apocryphes" that are part of RCC canon.

But utterly foolish I would be if I relied on these knowledge alone and not on the leading of the Holy Spirit and the revelation God provides. So I know well to avoid fruitless arguments.

Relying on that would be nonsense, of course. You mentioned Henoch - what help can we expect from visions not inspired by the Holy Spirit? Nothing.

But it is not foolish to ask himself "has that prophecy been fulfilled in the past?". To answer it, you need some historical knowledge. If there was a fulfillment, and there is no hint in Scripture to a second fulfillment, any explanation that implies a fulfillment in the future is speculative and should be backed up by firmer evidence.

And a last remark:

The 144000 is an exact number.In fact the scripture says 12000 from each twelve tribes listed.So no,thete is nothing sybolic about it.

Are you serious? 12,000 is no symbolic number? 12 tribes with the same number of members is no hint the numbers may be symbolic? I better don't say what I think of this kind of thinking

EDIT: A futher sign for the 144,000 being symbolic is the list of tribes. Taken literally, it is awkward that Joseph and Manasseh are listed there, not Ephraim and Manasseh as one might expect, and it is awkward that not Levi is omitted (as one would expect from the status of that tribe) but Dan. But there is symbolic in that: Joseph meaning "may the Lord add", and as to Dan - I hope you will know about this man and tribe to see the symbolic!

If the list itself has symbolic in it, what about the numbers?

 

[helmut]

Most scholars agree the Luke 21 was fulfilled in 70ad, but there are also many verses in Luke 21 that are also in Revelation, tying Luke 21 in with Revelation
Of that there is no dispute......

Of course there is no dispute of that, I already said that Lk 21 is not only on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but also about the end of the world.

The ties you bring are by and large larger loose, you have to presuppose what you want to proof to see most of them as more than superficial similarities.

 

[helmut]

Daniel 11:44 But news from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will go out with great fury to destroy many and devote them to destruction.

Isn't that rather about Antioch IV?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Isn't that rather about Antioch IV?

No.According to daniel ,that is the time of the resurrection.

Daniel 12:1 At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

And as daniel said it was a time a great distress ,unlike there ever has been in daniel 12:1,Jesus said the same in Mat 24:21.
Matthew 24:21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

 

[helmut]

No.According to daniel ,that is the time of the resurrection.

Now address the problem of the time of the Church not known to the previous generations. As one who does not discern between two mountains ridges at the horizon, because he doesn't see the valley between them. the OT prophets do not discern the first coming of Christ from the second.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Of course there is no dispute of that, I already said that Lk 21 is not only on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but also about the end of the world.

The ties you bring are by and large larger loose, you have to presuppose what you want to proof to see most of them as more than superficial similarities.

I let others presuppose.
Yes it was the end of the OC Mosaic Levitical Temple and Priesthood in Jerusalem 70ad, which was the center of the Jewish world.

Let me ask you this...do you view the fall of Jerusalem 70ad in Revelation?

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Luke 11:50
“that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, [Revelation 16:6 Revelation 18:24 Revelation 19:2]

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written [Revelation 19:2]
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For[fn] it is their just due.”

Revelation 19:
1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
‘HalleluYah!
the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;
2 That true and righteous His judgings,
that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom,
and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand.

Lam 4:13
Because of the sins of her prophets And the iniquities of her priests,
Who shed in her midst The blood of the just.