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Featured The Major Discrepancy Between Ezekiel and Johns New Jerusalem.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Daniel Martinovich, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The entire imagined problem comes from denying this obvious conclusion.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Did this prophecy come to pass and did it sound like it could not happen?

    "And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (Jonah 3:4).​

    Was the city of Nineveh overthrown in 40 days?

    No. It's because the Ninevites repented. They prevented judgment because of their repentance.

    Did this prophecy by Jonah sound like it could not happen?
    Again, no. Jonah clearly says that the city of Nineveh will be overthrown in 40 days.

    That is just making stuff up. No Scripture says the animal sacrifices will be reinstituted. Scripture heavily implies or suggests that the animal sacrifices are no more and have ended.

    "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14).

    The animal sacrifices temporarily covered sin, and they pointed to Jesus. But at Christ's death, the temple veil was torn from top to bottom ending the priesthood, along with the animal sacrifices (Matthew 27:51).

    Hebrews 10:9 says, "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

    Jesus is our high priest, and our Passover Lamb; So the idea of having a priesthood again with animal sacrifices is an insult to what He has already accomplished for us.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Understand your historical markers. I am familiar with them as some Eastern Orthodox have opined on them to me in the past. However, you do indicate "The day of vengeance of our God are the great days of judgement when Jeuses literally comes to earth to oversee those days." Is this a yet future literal judgment/Second coming for you? Or a successive 'interventions' without a physical return of Christ?

    I agree the Gospel keeps advancing according to God's Will and Purpose. However, things are not getting better around us. As we advance as a human race the secular world demonstrates more coldness of heart. Wars are more destructive, refugees more numerous and persecution of Christians at the highest proportionally since the Roman persecutions. Just not here, for the most part, in the West or developed world.

    Could you point out the nations most influenced by the government of God? Could you explain what exactly an earthly government of God looks like. Thanks.
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You can jest and insult by smiling, but THE Tree of Life as depicted in Revelation is missing in the Ezekiel text. You can keep stating it does, but it is not in the text. It's THE ONE THING missing from the Ezekiel text. Perhaps that means something. And it does.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What exactly is 'eternal' with an infant who dies in eternity? You may want to revisit those verses and look at the context.

    Considering "But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed", I would say this is not the Eternal Kingdom.

    As Revelation 20 points out there will be one physical kingdom a 1000 years, then the GWT judgment. AFTER that God ushers in the Eternal Kingdom as seen in Revelation 21-22.

    Pretty easy to refute partial arguments as I have been doing.

    Yes there is. Revelation chapter 20. Why do you deny the plain rendering of Holy Scriptures?

    What makes you think Jesus was not warning us about what you are presenting?
     
  6. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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  7. thesunisout

    thesunisout growing in grace Supporter

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    The best interpreter of scripture is scripture.

    Looking at your page, I am assuming you are believing we are in the Millennial Kingdom right now? Your argument seems to be focused on our relative prosperity in these times. What would happen if world war 3 were to break out?
     
  8. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    HI your dismissal of the chronology of Rev is week as the only chronology I demonstrated was that of chapter 20 which is a chronology of the events in this chapter only. In Rev 11:18 we see a judgment that those in Christ are raised and the rest of the dead are not raised until the 1000 years are over. You see that is a judgment and many of the rewards are just like the parables Jesus taught of the wise stewards being rewarded when the master returns. The rich man in agony in the flames Jesus spoke of when talking about Lazarus is still in there and he has been judged and will not reign with Christ. He will stand with all the other at the great white throne judgment.

    In Rev 5 we see those singing in heaven saying they will reign with Him upon the earth. In Rev 20 those beheaded say they will reign with him on the earth. Zech 14 shows the LORD coming with His saints. Jude quotes Enoch saying he say the LORD coming with ten thousands of His saints. You have ignored all of Zech 14 which shows that is the day the LORD is king over all the earth and the proof of continuation of activities in that text are the river newly formed flows year round and that from that point on the nations who do not come to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles will get no rain and Egypt itself is singled out for this and no doubt in the millennium Egypt will suffer a drought and call upon Jesus and this verse will be shown to them.

    Satan in Job is seen among the sons of God presenting himself to the LORD. He was in the garden, He is seen in Zechariah accusing Zerubbabel. Jesus notes that Satan desired to sift Peter like wheat. We see in Rev a change in ch 12
    7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[fn] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

    The antichrist is Satan possessed and how God will bind him is a poor question because he says he will and for how long. Rev says not to ad or take away from the book and your interpretation is taking away from the book. God in Rev says 13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

    You see here 4 specific angels bound until a specific hour day and year are released to kill one third of mankind. In Jude another group of angels we are told area also bound.
    And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

    Satan is a created being and it says he who deceived the nations will not deceive them again until the 1000 years is finished. My friend I believe the text as written and dare not take away form these words. When Satan is bound Christ will reign on earth.

    Zech 6
    “Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!
    From His place He shall branch out,
    And He shall build the temple of the LORD;
    13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD.
    He shall bear the glory,
    And shall sit and rule on His throne;
    So He shall be a priest on His throne,
    And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’
    14 “Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the LORD for Helem,[fn] Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah. 15 Even those from afar shall come and build the temple of the LORD. Then you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.”

    You see Jesus is king over all the earth in Zech 14 he will be both king and priest.

    “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
    “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
    A King shall reign and prosper,
    And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
    6 In His days Judah will be saved,
    And Israel will dwell safely;
    Now this is His name by which He will be called:
    THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    7 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”

    This is what will happen. Jesus is this branch.

    I shared the lens I see prophecy with that what the prophet says must happen or he is a false prophet and that no prophecy is of any private interpretation. So in Zech 14 The LORD must come with his saints and the Mt of Olives split in two and a new river must form. It is a day when it is light out at night and life continues on earth from this point on. It is the beginning of the kingdom age.
     
  9. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    If you take a smile as a jest or insult, I won't give ya one.

    Ezekiel 47:12 does have the river and tree of life present, and is the same "Eternal Kingdom" as seen in Revelation 22:1-5

    Ezekiel 47:12, The tree of life has leaves that don't fade "Eternal", fruit not consumed "Eternal".

    Has fruit every month, leaves for healing, exactly like Revelation 22:1-5

    On both accounts the river of life is flowing, from the sanctuary/Throne.

    Looks like were gonna disagree, God has me convinced of the "Eternal Kingdom" seen in both Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5

    Jesus Christ Is Lord!

    Truth7t7
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    River yes, but no "tree of life." If it's the same eternal kingdom then why doesn't the chapter mention that?

    Eternal fruit is not in the text in Ezekiel 47:12. Please show me 'tree of life' in the same text. Thanks.

    Similarities are not equivalents. The two passages are definitely similar but not exactly the same.

    Of course see above.
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    So - in response to a scripture that EXPLICITLY says animal sacrifices will again be offered, your answer is that NO SCRIPTURE says this?
     
  12. Kit Sigmon

    Kit Sigmon Well-Known Member

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    How do you figure that Ezekiel 47:12 and Revelation 22:1-5 are about the same
    thing?

    Ezekiel 47
    1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

    2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

    3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

    4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

    5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

    6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

    7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

    8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

    9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

    10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

    11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.


    *12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side,
    shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade,
    neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit
    according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the
    sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine."



    Revelation 22:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
    *1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding
    out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river,
    was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits,
    and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for
    the healing of the nations.

    3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb
    shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

    4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light
    of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever
    and ever.
     
  13. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    No I believe the thousand years illustrates something but not a time period. I wont get into what I believe it represents here because not a single person I am talking to even acknowledges the big picture of Bible prophecy that the scripture has already interprited.
    But let me put it this way. Chapters 20,21,22 of Revelation are not chronological. They are all happening at the same time. Chapter 19 is chronological. It happens before. It was the end of the age of the four gentile empires that occured when what had been the capitol of the Roman Empire since 333 ad fell to the Turks. Constantinople 1453ad.

    So we are over 500 years into the age of promise that Revelation 20,21,22 and a hundred other chapters of prophecy talk about.

    You ask about WWIII? That would be another fulfillment of what the prophecy of Gog and Magog illustrate. People’s and nations who seek to stop the growth of the influence of the government of God in the earth. Seeking to conquer the lands where The Gospel and the Word have the most influence. I have faith in God’s Word though that just like the Nazis, the USSR, Napoleon, the Holy Roman Empire, the imperial Japanese. That the people’s most influenced by the Bible will come out on top. Which is why in both Ezekiel’s and John’s visions Gog and Magog are defeated in war. That is the major difference between the age of promise prophesied by Daniel and others. In the previous ages the bad guys ruled in perpetuity. Heck, outside of some short time periods in ancient Israel there were no good guys. From the time of the beginning of the age of the four gentile empires. The people of faith were defeated in war and subjugated to the wicked. All the way until that last Empire ended. Then it all began to change and slowly but surely. With ups and downs. That change has been spreading.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    People don't seem able to put 2 and 2 together and see that Jesus is the Sacrifice for us during this Christian age. But there will be again a House of prayer for all the nations, where offerings and sacrifices will again be made to God. God does not change, He required them before and will again, when all the Lord's people live in all of the holy Land.

    Isaiah 56:1-2 These are the words of the Lord; Maintain justice and do what is right, for My deliverance is close at hand and My victory will soon be revealed. Happy is the person who follows these precepts and holds fast to them, who keeps the Sabbaths unprofained and his hand from all wrongdoing.

    Isaiah 56:3-5 The foreigner who has given his allegiance to the Lord must not say; The Lord will exclude me from His people. The eunuch must not say: I am naught but a barren tree. The eunuch’s who keep My Sabbaths and choose to do My will, holding fast to the covenant, will receive from Me something better than children – a memorial and a name within My Temple. I shall give them everlasting renown.
    Isaiah 56:6-7 So too, with the foreigners who give their allegiance to Me, to minister to Me and love My name and become My servants. All who keep My Sabbaths holy and hold fast to My covenant; these I shall bring to My holy Mountain and give them joy in My House of prayer. Their offerings and sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar, for My House will be called a House of prayer for all nations.
    Isaiah 56:8 This is the word of the Lord, who gathers those driven out of Israel; I shall add to those who have already been gathered. John 10:16

    This Bible passage, written by the prophet Isaiah, gives a wonderful promise to every person – regardless of race, colour or gender. The promise of the Lord, to give them;
    Joy in My House of prayer

    In verse 8, it seems that this will happen after all the faithful Christians, [the real Israelites of God] have gathered into the Land. Ezekiel 20:34-35, Jeremiah 30:10
    Also as in verse 7, the Temple will have been rebuilt by then.

    Isaiah 66:18-21...I am coming to gather peoples of every tongue. They will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on them and will send them to preach the Gospel to all the peoples that have not heard of Me. From every nation and by every means, My righteous people will come to My Holy mountain, Jerusalem, just as in ancient days, the Israelites brought their offerings to Me. Some of them, I shall take to be priests and Temple Levites.
    Some of these; are the 144,000 as mentioned in Revelation. This all must occur before the Return of Jesus. 2 Thess. 1:10…He reveals His glory among His ownRevelation 14:1
    Reference: REB some verses abridged.
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    How do your views differ from Theonomy?

    https://www.theopedia.com/Theonomy
    What is dominion theology / theonomy / Christian reconstructionism?
    Christian Reconstructionism, Theonomy | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

    I remember such a discussion with a previous poster here on CF @Tree of Life . He may want to opine as well and I pinged him.
     
  16. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Isaiah 66:22, Isaiah 65:17-19, and Revelation 21:1-5 are the same "Eternal Kingdom" in the New Heaven, Earth, and Jerusalem
     
  17. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    You have shown nothing to disprove the fact of the "Eternal Kingdom" river and tree of life seen in Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5, parallel teachings of the same "Eternal Kingdom" :)
     
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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  19. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    If you think these prophesies are all telling about the Eternal Kingdom ,then you either just haven't read them properly or see them from a very biased viewpoint.
    From your other postings, it seems that both apply.
    Flat statements such as you pronounce, carry very little weight with most of us. We know our Bibles very well and unsupported opinions are worthless.
     
  20. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    What does John say?

    17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. (Revelation 21:17)

    Let us look at those terms in the Greek.....

    Man is Anthropos, meaning humans in general. So what is a measure of humanity to go by?

    444 ánthrōposman, also the generic term for "mankind"; the human race; people, including women and men

    Angel is referring to the Heavenly host, since New Jerusalem comes from Heaven. How does humanity measure up to the host of Heaven?

    32 (ággelos) is used 176 times in the NT (usually of heavenly angels),

    Finally the word measure is a marker, where you either fall within or outside that marked point, that is the metron.

    3358 métron – properly, a measure (the actual measure itself); (figuratively) the basis for determining what is enough (or not enough), what is fair (or not fair), etc.

    3358 /métron ("standard, measure") is the controlling basis by which something is determined as acceptable or unacceptablepreeminentlyrooting to the Lord Himself as His being is the only ultimate measure of truth.

    Measure is not a specific number, but rather a level marker tyat is used to gauge whether something falls within the mark of what is acceptable as per say. So, what is the permissible or acceptable mark?

    By now, it should be clear, that John is depicting the actual angelic heavenly subjects, as to how they happen to be counted/measured within God's Holy city marker or metron, that is the subjects themselves are the spiritual measure, rather than an animate object with physical dimensions.

    144 cubits, has symbolic meaning, just like the 144,000, where 12 x 12 are the......

    twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    This is also where you get the 12 + 12 = 24 elders who sit as Christ's kingly Jury, who have crowns, hence that is why the King is called the King of kings. These take off their crowns and throw them at the feet of the King of kings.

    The 1000 is the timeless eternal millenium reign after the books are opened, at Christ's second coming. 1000 symbolises devine completeness and the Father's glory.

    In conclusion, John's depiction is of the subjects themselves, with symbolic numerical meanings tied to the measure of a man, that is of THE Angel.
     
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