The Major Discrepancy Between Ezekiel and Johns New Jerusalem.

[Davy]

agree
What takes place in Revelation 11? The 24 elders which sat -fall down -worship Him. Did those seats now become vacant in heaven?
It is time to judge the dead.
Are all of the dead being judged right then?
Did the wicked dead get raised and cast into the lake of fire?
Doesn't seem possible as only now will God begin to destroy them. They are still at the start of the 7th trumpet - destroying the earth. They slew the last Christian and there will yet come the sinners that die during the vials/Armageddon/Gog war/the millennuim/the final Gog war...and maybe even more still die up to the time of the new earth is almost here.
God won't raise the wicked dead as a huge group until the last wicked person has died that will die.
Revelation 11:18 is the announcement as to raising the saints soon and rewarding them. He will go on to destroy the wicked yet.

Revelation 11:19 shows what? Is it a scene before or after Rev. 7's?

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven...seen...the ark..."

Revelation 7:9-14 -a great multitude
"...came out of great tribulation..."
Revelation 7:15
"...in His temple..."
/So the temple opens first and the ark is seen, then later those from the great tribulation are seen inside of the temple.
What does Revelation 15 say must happen before men can enter into the temple?

Does it say that the new earth is here or that all of the wicked have died? Does it tell that first the vials have to be
poured out? no

"And the temple was filled with smoke...no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."
What plagues does it refer to?
Revelation 15:6
"And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues..."
These are not the ones in vials, because they are listed later. One of the four beasts has the seven vials full and gives them to the set of seven angels. There is more to show that it is as the great tribulation ends that the 7 trumpets are over and men can enter into the temple.

Revelation 15 ends with what taking place?
This is actually when John heard the trumpets sounding and saw the plagues happen.
"till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled"
That is how chapter 15 closes. John has seen seven angels-they have various sets of plagues. The first set must be over before men can enter into the temple. Rev. 7 shows those that came out of great tribulation have entered into the temple.
Will mention one more part to look into before we go on with the rest of your post. Revelation 8 is not the time of actual sounding of the seven trumpets. It is only the story of that time. There was smoke in the temple in chapter 8 and chapter 15. These are the same scenes. Consider that when it is the time of incense being done in the temple -the people are praying outside of it.


The people came out of great tribulation-not the millennium, not the new earth time. The vials have yet to be poured out and wickeds die.


Jesus Christ is not warning the church in Rev. 16. He would not tell them to keep their garments. The church gets new ones. She, per 2 Cor. 5, desires to lose her clothes and put on immortality. The time of Rev. 16 is the vials of God's wrath. The church already left for heaven back when the 7th trumpet sounded. Jesus Christ came wearing one crown, but for Armageddon He will wear- many crowns.
What happens as chapter 16 ends? great hail
This was prophesied back at the end of Rev. 11.
What happens in Revelation 16:17?
"It is done"
This is not like the trumpets time where part of it was sealed up by John. There will be no mercy during the vials. They will start and go till completion.

How many mouths does the beast that came up from the sea now have?

"out of the mouth of the beast"
But back in Revelation 13-for the time of the great tribulation -he had two mouths.
the one like a lion and the one that spoke great things/the little horn king
The little horn has already been here, died, and his 42 months of war ended before that message in Revelation 16 ever gets said to those on the earth. This is the time after the 7th trumpet -the little horn is dead - and in hell - and now will be sent out - four-like evils that do miracles and cause the world to gather to fight the Lord later.

You've got too many things jumbled up. What's your point?

 

[DavidPT]

That all 7 vials are then poured out is a popular notion with some Churches, but it's not what the Rev.16 events reveal. The vials parallel the seals and trumpets.

Because Jesus is still warning His Church on earth on the 6th Vial, it means the beast kingdom is still in power throughout all those previous vials.

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Only... on that 7th Vial being poured out is the event of the "day of the Lord". Some brethren are wrongly being taught the "day of the Lord" is the tribulation period, that I'm also aware, but it is not.

God through His OT prophets showed that "day of the Lord" will occur very quickly upon the earth, suddenly, at an instant. In Isaiah are very graphic descriptions of it, one as if waking up suddenly from a bad dream. Apostle Paul taught this idea also in 1 Thess.5, but men's traditions have taken it over in a lot of Churches, hiding this fact of the "day of the Lord" happening very quickly. That is why our Lord Jesus and His Apostles used the analogy of it happening "as a thief in the night".

I started a new thread the other day on some of what is being discussed here. Maybe we can continue the discussion there? One thing I agree with you about, the day of the Lord is not meaning the tribulation period. But to somehow conclude the vials parallel the trumpets, that I don't agree with, and that new thread I was talking about, I present some of my reasons why.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[DavidPT]

The trumpets end before the vials begin.
The 7th trumpet is only then announcing it is time for the wrath of God -come. This means it is impossible for a vial to have been poured till after the 7th trumpet sounds.
None of the vials get poured out during the great tribulation.

5th seal-great tribulation
6th seal - sun black shows trib is over
God's wrath will soon begin and that means the 7th trumpet must sound first.
7th seal - silence
vials get poured out - end with great hail
Armageddon
Israel returns to her land and dwells safely -without walls
later - there is a great tumult, then the survivors must come year to year to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles...nations learn war no more during this time-swords have been beaten into plowshares...while the devil is bound in the bottomless pit

Where are you placing the 2nd coming in all of this?

After Armageddon it appears you are meaning some of Ezekiel 38, some of Zechariah 14, some of Isaiah 2, and some of Revelation 20, yet I can't tell from the way you wrote this, as to the timeframe you are putting these in.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[seventysevens]

"book"
What book? It is referring to the book that John ate in chapter 10.
Why? Because there was soon going to be a switch. Chapter 11 ends the part of Revelation called - the mystery of God". John though ate the little open book so he could yet tell the church more. There was going to be more prophecy given to him from this book. The reason we have chapters 16-22 is because John swallowed the book of messages that gets told to us after the mystery of God section is over.
Notice too that it only seems to have one city written about in it.
the holy city====as to the New Jerusalem
This is the holy city written about in this little open book that was eaten by John that a person can lose their access to.

Consider what Jesus is actually saying at the beginning of the book of Revelation
Jesus is telling John that he is going to give John a prophecy that Jesus wants John to deliver this prophecy to the people in Johns generation which is noted as the "here' and also to the future generations noted as the "hereafter"

At the beginning of the book of prophecy that John is to write it say

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The book mentioned in Revelation 10 is NOT the same book that John was writing

If anyone tried to add to what was written in that book , how can anyone add to -
or remove from a book that went straight from an angels hand into Johns mouth ? Especially that it happened during a vision John had where no other people had access to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now AFTER the entire prophecy had been given to John in it's completeness and Jesus is no longer speaking of the prophecy
Jesus is telling all people that read the book of prophecy that John wrote , the book of prophecy that Jesus instructed John to write , here is what Jesus said about the book he told John to write and deliver to the people of Johns day:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Jesus is testifying to the authenticity of what is written in the book that he instructed John to write
Clearly Jesus is saying do not add to the book that Jesus instructed John to write or Jesus will add to that person the plagues written in the book that John wrote
Clearly Jesus is saying do not remove anything from the book that Jesus instructed John to write or Jesus will remove that persons name from the book the book of life , remove that persons privileged from entering the Holy City

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[BABerean2]

So, what about the Jerusalem that gets created in Isaiah 65?
infants -do not die
but people -sinners die at 100 years old
/there will not be the first death on the new earth
There will be infants/ births. Jesus Christ told that there are no marriages in the other world.
an infant of days - as in women are getting pregnant in the Isaiah 65 created Jerusalem
nor an old man /not filled his days
their offspring with them
the wolf and lamb don't eat each other
the lion eats straw

Isa 65:20　 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.　

Tremendous confusion is produced by the usual translations of this verse and therefore, they cannot be correct.

If the focus is placed on the beginning of the verse, all of these conflicts go away.

There shall be no more of any of the things that follow in the verse.

There will be no more children dying.

There will be no more people dying at 100 years old.

There will be no more sinners.

Go back to the Hebrew text and put the emphasis on the beginning of the verse and look at it from that perspective.

The Hebrew is the original Word of God.
Everything else is only a translation.


.

 

[Truth7t7]

The 7th trumpet occurs as time soon for God to destroy.
This means the day of the Lord is about to begin. Isaiah 13 shows that the day of the Lord comes upon Babylon.
This means the day of the Lord is about to occur at the start of Rev. 18. Babylon is about to get plagues and God's people leave there first.
The day of the Lord is not the start then to the end of the world. The church is raptured and goes to heaven, but Babylon will soon be under the full vials of God's wrath. This time will end with great hail.

7th trumpet/day of the Lord begins...rapture...Babylon gets plagues from the full vials being poured out....eventually end with great hail and Armageddon.

After Armageddon - the devil will be bound for 1000 years and Jesus Christ will reign on the earth with the saints.

later - Satan will be loosed and gather the nations/Gog
fire comes out of heaven
the remaining people keep living on the earth till the time of the sheep and goats judgment
resurrection of the unjust take place and lake of fire gains them
the new earth is soon to come
New Jerusalem comes down from heaven
the saints go out to see the wicked at specific times and get abhorred

Jesus will not reign on this mortal earth with his saints.

Matthew 25:31-46 teaches Jesus Returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

There is no earthly 1000 year kingdom to follow the return of Jesus Christ.

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus will not reign on this mortal earth with his saints.

Matthew 25:31-46 teaches Jesus Returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

There is no earthly 1000 year kingdom to follow the return of Jesus Christ.

Since you apparently feel Matthew 25:31-46 is the trump card that trumps anything that alleges Premil, you would have a valid point if the goats were meaning whom you are taking them to mean, rather than what they are meaning in context, where that context began in the last portion of Matthew 24, and continues in the beginning of Matthew 25 up until the part about this future judgment of these gathered out of the nations.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

The text indicates this is the reply of the goats as a whole. Would the wicked as whole, which would include atheists, satan worshipers, etc, seriously answer in that manner? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Davy]

The 7th trumpet brings an announcement in heaven as to who should rule. The 24 elders were not listed, so they fall before Him. They were seated, but leave those seats. The future will not be ruled by higher- up angels. Paul referred to them as -the elect angels. He told that they judge us.

The "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", meaning at an instant as a surprise like a thief breaking in at midnight:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV


Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and here reveals His return on the 7th Vial to fight Armageddon with His angels from Heaven:

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV


For almost a century or more, the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrinists have taught that their time of gathering by Jesus off this earth is when Jesus comes "as a thief in the night". They simply forgot to realize how Apostles Paul and Peter marked the "day of the Lord" happening on that same moment that Jesus comes "as a thief".

One cannot... have man's works being burned off the earth on the "day of the Lord" like Peter said and still have a tribulation period still going on! It is stupid to claim the "day of the Lord" happens over a period of 7 years.

There is only a ONE time event of Christ Jesus' coming to gather His Church, and it is on that "day of the Lord" when He comes "as a thief", and brings His alseep saints with Him to gather His Church still alive on earth and go to Jerusalem to do battle with the northern army at Armageddon.

 

[DavidPT]

The "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", meaning at an instant as a surprise like a thief breaking in at midnight:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV


Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and here reveals His return on the 7th Vial to fight Armageddon with His angels from Heaven:

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV


For almost a century or more, the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrinists have taught that their time of gathering by Jesus off this earth is when Jesus comes "as a thief in the night". They simply forgot to realize how Apostles Paul and Peter marked the "day of the Lord" happening on that same moment that Jesus comes "as a thief".

One cannot... have man's works being burned off the earth on the "day of the Lord" like Peter said and still have a tribulation period still going on! It is stupid to claim the "day of the Lord" happens over a period of 7 years.

There is only a ONE time event of Christ Jesus' coming to gather His Church, and it is on that "day of the Lord" when He comes "as a thief", and brings His alseep saints with Him to gather His Church still alive on earth and go to Jerusalem to do battle with the northern army at Armageddon.

To add to some of what you submitted, all I know is(not literally all I know though), for example, this.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


This at least appears to depict a time of peace and safety, from their perspective anyway.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


We see here that a false sense of security precedes sudden destruction. The sudden destruction of course meaning the day of the Lord. This alone should tell anyone that the time of Revelation 11:9-10 precedes the time of the sudden destruction. And since this sudden destruction is meaning the day of the Lord, the obvious conclusion is that the day of the Lord follows after the events in Revelation 11:9-10, since there is no way Revelation 11:9-10 takes place some time after sudden destruction had already preceded these events. That would be backwards.

 

[Davy]

To add to some of what you submitted, all I know is(not literally all I know though), for example, this.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


This at least appears to depict a time of peace and safety, from their perspective anyway.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


We see here that a false sense of security precedes sudden destruction. The sudden destruction of course meaning the day of the Lord. This alone should tell anyone that the time of Revelation 11:9-10 precedes the time of the sudden destruction. And since this sudden destruction is meaning the day of the Lord, the obvious conclusion is that the day of the Lord follows after the events in Revelation 11:9-10, since there is no way Revelation 11:9-10 takes place some time after sudden destruction had already preceded these events. That would be backwards.

Yes, definitely. Apostle Paul was pulling the "sudden destruction" idea from the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord". That is also where he and our Lord Jesus were teaching about the idea of being a watchman.