The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[Rick Otto]

Did I say that is what you personally believe? No. I am not sure how you rationalize or make your own beliefs work. I am saying that this is what Eternal Security must say if you follow it's logical conclusion. The key here is for you to prove your case with Scripture so as to convince me that this is not so.


....

Have a nice conversation with yourself. Sorry I interrupted.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Have a nice conversation with yourself. Sorry I interrupted.

Please re-read Post #'s 298 and 300. I just re-edited them so as to try and show you my true heart's intent or to make clear in what I am trying to say. For my goal is to attack the belief and not the person.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, getting back to the verses and points in the video:
(For those of you who will not watch it).

Jesus says,

"Take heed therefore that the light which is in you be not darkness"
(Luke 11:35)​

Jesus also says to his disciples to walk in the light while they have the light (Jesus). Why? Because if they don't walk in the light while they have the light, darkness can then come upon them.

"Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walks in darkness knows not where he goes." (John 12:35).​

This also can be seen in 2 Peter 2:20-22,

"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog has turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Peter 2:20-22).​

We can see this in real life because when some of us first came to the Lord, they would clean up many things in their life, but then a few years later, they would find themselves doing the same thing again. In fact, 2 Peter 2:20 is saying that we can be worse off in the end then when we were at the beginning.

Christians are supposed to be putting to death those things that are of our Earthly nature.

Colossians 3:5-9
"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience:
In which you also once walked, when you lived in them.
But now you also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy talk out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds;"​

Why do believers do this?

Because those who belong to Christ have crucified the affections and lusts.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Galatians 5:24-25).​

...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am not sure how you can read the Bible and ignore all the verses that refute the unbiblical teaching of Eternal Security. I beg you to re-examine what you believe and look at the following verses by way of prayer. For if I am wrong, I have nothing to lose (because I do not believe in Works Salvationism; I believe in Relationship-ism with God). But if you are wrong, you have everything to lose, my friend. Anyways, here is a...

Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):

• Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.

• Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.

• Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.

• Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.

• Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.

• Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.

• Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.

• Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.

• Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also seeMatthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)

• Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).

• Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?

• Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.

• John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).

• John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.

• John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

• John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?

• Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.

• Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.

• Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.

• Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.

• Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.

• Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.

• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.

• 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.

• 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.

• Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.

• Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

• Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

• Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.

• Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.

• Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
  … so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.

• Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.

• Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

• Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.

• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.

• 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.

• 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.

• 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).

• 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.

• Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.

• Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?

• Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

• Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.

• Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).

• Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).

• Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.

• Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.

• Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.

• Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.

• Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.

• Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.

• Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.

• James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.

• 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.

• 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.

• 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.

• 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.

• 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.

• 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.

• 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.

• Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality

• Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.

• Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13above).

• Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).

• Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.

• Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

• Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

• Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.

• Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.

Source:
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/your-handy-dandy-long-list-of-verses-against-osas.83484/....

Maybe through the tint of the glasses you're wearing. But NONE of these (or any other verses) teach conditional security.

The Bible is clear and you've been shown the verses that teach eternal security. And you've chosen to reject the truth. It is that simple.

Eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23. God's gifts, which include eternal life, are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

This isn't even debatable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First, Jesus says to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. Even James gives us a glimpse to what a "perfect man" looks like. He says, "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2). But yet by what you said so far, you are giving me the impression that James is lying and we actually cannot be a "perfect man." Is that what you are saying? I sure hope that this is not the case.

Second, speaking of the "enemy", the Scriptures say,

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Neither give place to the devil" (Ephesians 4:26-27).​

But by what you said so far, you are giving me the impression that we must conclude that you believe that a saint is always angry and that they are always giving place to the devil at times (Which would be a direct violation of this above passage). Is that true? Is that what you believe? I sure hope not, my friend.....

I suggest you research the Greek word for "perfect". It's not what you think it is.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Maybe through the tint of the glasses you're wearing. But NONE of these (or any other verses) teach conditional security.

The Bible is clear and you've been shown the verses that teach eternal security. And you've chosen to reject the truth. It is that simple.

Eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23. God's gifts, which include eternal life, are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

This isn't even debatable.

Well, first, take a couple of verses out of the long list that I provided and prove your case that those verses are not refuting Eternal Security:

(a) By showing us the surrounding context (and):
(b) By showing us some cross references (i.e. related verses elsewhere in the Bible).​

Second, as for God's grace being a gift as mentioned in Romans 6:23: You have to realize that gifts in the real world need to be taken care of or otherwise you can lose those gifts. For example: If you receive a car as a gift, that does not mean you can run red lights, and drive drunk. As for Romans 11:29: As I said to you before, this is spoken to unsaved Israel. It is saying how God's gifts and CALLING of God (that come with conditions) are unchangeable. You are merely reading into that verse that there are no conditions to the receiving of God's gift and His calling. This is talking about receiving Christ and the gifts that come with that. So this passage is talking about the receiving of the gift who is Jesus Christ and the receiving of the calling. Do you believe in Universal Salvation? I do not think that you do, my friend. You believe that a person had to do something in order to receive the gift so as to be saved. This is a condition of the receiving of the gift and the calling of God. The key question is: Why do you think that there are no more conditions after receiving of this gift? Does this verse talk about the after effects of his gift or gifts? No. It is talking to Israel and how they need to accept his gift. Israel does not have this gift and they need it. Are you unaware that Romans 11:29 is talkng to Israel?


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I suggest you research the Greek word for "perfect". It's not what you think it is.

First, you did not grow up with the apostles reading and speaking Biblical Greek. Nobody has done such a thing in today's day and age. Greek scholars do not even agree with each other. The only way we can know what the Biblical Greek is saying is by understanding what the Word of God is saying in our own language. For at Pentecost, God was more than able to communicate to others in their own language or tongues. Also, God never gave us any hint or clues that we are to study some OTHER language or in the HEBREW and GREEK only in order to understand His Word better, either. This is a man made tradition that cannot be found in the Word of God. God speaks to us in our own language. For God will not hold us accountable to His Word in some other language that we do not know. God will hold us accountable to the Word of God that we can read and know in our own language; And we will be held accountable to His Word on the last day.

"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).​

Do you really expect me to believe that God will hold some poor farmer or woodsman accountable to the Word to knowing both Hebrew and Greek?

Also, lets say you are right and the word "perfect" does not really mean that it is "perfect." Surely you can give us an example in Scripture of this to show us that this is the case.

For example: The word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can have a temporal sense. For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

Can you provide any examples like this for the word "perfect"?
In other words, I would need an example of Scripture saying something like:
"And even though he falls into sin, he is still a perfect man if he trusts in Jesus."
Or something like:
"One can still be perfect even if they fail to live righteously."


Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, first, take a couple of verses out of the long list that I provided and prove your case that those verses are not refuting Eternal Security:

(a) By showing us the surrounding context (and):
(b) By showing us some cross references (i.e. related verses elsewhere in the Bible).​

None of those verses teach loss of salvation because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).​

Second, as for God's grace being a gift as mentioned in Romans 6:23: You have to realize that gifts in the real world need to be taken care of or otherwise you can lose those gifts.

First, because God's Word SAYS that God's gifts are irrevocable, we don't have to ASSUME that God's gifts are just like any ol' gift that man gives. Second, God's gifts aren't objects, like gifts that man gives.

For example:

I'm not going to address this example because it is irrelevant as an example. God's gifts aren't objects, like a car, or any other thing. And God's gifts are irrevocable.

As for Romans 11:29: As I said to you before, this is spoken to unsaved Israel.

There is no evidence from anywhere in Romans that 11:29 only refers to Israel. And the gifts of God that are irrevocable DOES include the gift of eternal life, or Paul would have made it clear that he didn't include that gift in 11:29. So, where is that evidence?

It is saying how God's gifts and CALLING of God (that come with conditions) are unchangeable.

No, not unchangeable. Irrevocable. Big difference.

You are merely reading into that verse that there are no conditions to the receiving of God's gift and His calling.

Wrong. The condition for receiving God's gift of eternal life is faith in Christ. And once received as a gift, that gift is irrevocable.

You've not proven otherwise.

This is talking about receiving Christ and the gifts that come with that.

Yes, it is. And eternal life is one of the gifts that are received when one believes in Christ.

So this passage is talking about the receiving of the gift who is Jesus Christ and the receiving of the calling.

One is free to believe whatever they want, but Paul was clear about describing ETERNAL LIFE as a gift of God, which is THROUGH Jesus Christ.

I believe you've misread Scripture.

Do you believe in Universal Salvation? I do not think that you do, my friend. You believe that a person had to do something in order to receive the gift so as to be saved.

No, I reject universal salvation. And one must believe in Christ in order to be saved. Acts 16:31

This is a condition of the receiving of the gift and the calling of God. The key question is: Why do you think that there are no more conditions after receiving of this gift?

Because that gift is IRREVOCABLE, not "unchangeable" as you suppose.

Does this verse talk about the after effects of his gift or gifts? No. It is talking to Israel and how they need to accept his gift.

God's gifts apply to everyone who believes. Eternal life is irrevocable.

Israel does not have this gift and they need it. Are you unaware that Romans 11:29 is talkng to Israel?....

No, you are the unaware one. God's gifts, all of them, are irrevocable.

Because Paul NEVER excluded any gift when he penned Rom 11:29.

Why do you think eternal life, which is a gift of God, is revocable?[/QUOTE]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

None of those verses teach loss of salvation because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).​

First, because God's Word SAYS that God's gifts are irrevocable, we don't have to ASSUME that God's gifts are just like any ol' gift that man gives. Second, God's gifts aren't objects, like gifts that man gives.


I'm not going to address this example because it is irrelevant as an example. God's gifts aren't objects, like a car, or any other thing. And God's gifts are irrevocable.


There is no evidence from anywhere in Romans that 11:29 only refers to Israel. And the gifts of God that are irrevocable DOES include the gift of eternal life, or Paul would have made it clear that he didn't include that gift in 11:29. So, where is that evidence?


No, not unchangeable. Irrevocable. Big difference.


Wrong. The condition for receiving God's gift of eternal life is faith in Christ. And once received as a gift, that gift is irrevocable.

You've not proven otherwise.


Yes, it is. And eternal life is one of the gifts that are received when one believes in Christ.


One is free to believe whatever they want, but Paul was clear about describing ETERNAL LIFE as a gift of God, which is THROUGH Jesus Christ.

I believe you've misread Scripture.


No, I reject universal salvation. And one must believe in Christ in order to be saved. Acts 16:31


Because that gift is IRREVOCABLE, not "unchangeable" as you suppose.


God's gifts apply to everyone who believes. Eternal life is irrevocable.


No, you are the unaware one. God's gifts, all of them, are irrevocable.

Because Paul NEVER excluded any gift when he penned Rom 11:29.

Why do you think eternal life, which is a gift of God, is revocable?

Okay, you are just repeating the same thing you said and you are not actually proving WHY you think my interpretation on Romans 11:29 is not correct. Also, the point that Romans 11:29 is talking to unsaved Israel can also be applied to all unsaved individuals, as well. That's the point you are not getting. It is talking about RECEIVING the gift (and gifts) and it talking about answering the CALLING of God. This involves a condition, unless of course you believe in Universal Salvation (of which I know you do not believe).

Also, you have not explained any of the verses on my list that refutes Eternal Security, either. Give me:

(a) The Context.
(b) and Cross References.​

To prove your case.

...

 

[FreeGrace2]

First, you did not grow up with the apostles reading and speaking Biblical Greek.

Which is why I have Bible study tools at my disposal; lexicons, interlinears. I suggest the same for you.

Nobody has done such a thing in today's day and age.

Uh, lexicons, interlinears.

Greek scholars do not even agree with each other.

Not across the board. Only on several specific things.

The only way we can know what the Biblical Greek is saying is by understanding what the Word of God is saying in our own language.

One is free to believe whatever they want to believe.

For at Pentecost, God was more than able to communicate to others in their own language or tongues. Also, God never gave us any hint or clues that we are to study some OTHER language or in the HEBREW and GREEK only in order to understand His Word better, either.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with 2 Tim 2:15.

This is a man made tradition that cannot be found in the Word of God. God speaks to us in our own language.

Please cite your source for this claim. God spoke to us through the writers of Scripture, IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE. Which is why we need to understand their language. That's why lexicons are necessary.

For God will not hold us accountable to His Word in some other language that we do not know.

Picture yourself at the Bema and Jesus asking why your views were so far afield from His Word. And your weak excuse; I didn't know the original languages. And He'll no doubt point out to you your rejection of the Bible study helps readily available.

God will hold us accountable to the Word of God that we can read and know in our own language; And we will be held accountable to His Word on the last day.

He will hold all of us accountable for what HIS WORD says. Not some translation of His Word.

"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).

Wow. You've found a verse that applies to you.​

Do you really expect me to believe that God will hold some poor farmer or woodsman accountable to the Word to knowing both Hebrew and Greek?

Nope. He'll hold them accountable for not using readily available Bible study helps.

Also, lets say you are right and the word "perfect" does not really mean that it is "perfect." Surely you can give us an example in Scripture of this to show us that this is the case.

James 3:2 contains the word "perfect"

teleios
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Which is why I have Bible study tools at my disposal; lexicons, interlinears. I suggest the same for you.

And you think the people who wrote Concordances (with an attached Lexicon) had grown up reading and speaking Biblical Greek during Biblical times? Do you believe these people lived during the times of the apostle Paul? How do you know they are not wrong in their interpretation from over the many years that have passed after that language was no longer in use anymore?

Uh, lexicons, interlinears.

No. A person re-hashing what some person believes that languages says is not the same thing as a person who actually grew up in that time period speaking and writing that language and who would no doubt correct the scholars of this day and age for falsely misunderstanding the Bible in what it says.

Not across the board. Only on several specific things.

Jesus said beware of the Scribes. A scribe is a person who trans-SCRIBES the Word. Who would be the Scribes of today? It would be the scholars of our day. Should we not be testing everything they say, especially if Jesus said to beware of the Scribes?

One is free to believe whatever they want to believe.

I can say the same for you. But that is not a real answer or refutation of knowing what the Hebrew and Greek says by knowing what the Word plainly says in your own language.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with 2 Tim 2:15.

I am very familar with 2 Timothy 2:15 and I believe what it says. But nowhere does it mention the Greek as a requirement in studying the Word, though. That is an assumption you are placing upon the text that is not there.

In fact, the thing is that by what you have said to me so far, you are giving me the impression that you do not completely believe 2 Timothy 2:15. How so? Well, the verse says to study to show yourself APPROVED unto God. But according to OSAS, or Eternal Security, you are already "approved" by God. There is nothing more you can do to be "approved" by Him. Your belief in Jesus is all you need to be right with Him. At least that is the impression I get when I have talked with you and others in regards to Eternal Security. Is that true? If not, then please explain using the Word of God, my friend.

Please cite your source for this claim. God spoke to us through the writers of Scripture, IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE. Which is why we need to understand their language. That's why lexicons are necessary.

In Acts chapter 2, God was able to communicate to people in their own tongue and language. It is silly to assume God has changed in regards to doing that (See Acts 2:4-13). For in verse 4, it says they were filled with the Holy Spirit and they spake with other tongues (Acts 2:4).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).

Picture yourself at the Bema and Jesus asking why your views were so far afield from His Word. And your weak excuse; I didn't know the original languages. And He'll no doubt point out to you your rejection of the Bible study helps readily available.

God is not a respecter of persons. He would make things equal for all men of different time periods. In other words, you are saying that the men who did not have these Lexicons available to them by way of the internet in the past would just be out of luck in understanding God's Word. I don't believe that. The Scriptures say that the Spirit can guide a believer into all truth. This would be all believers thru out all time (Regardless if they had a Lexicon or not).

He will hold all of us accountable for what HIS WORD says. Not some translation of His Word.

His Word does not change even if His Word is spoken in another language. This is evident by what happened at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.

Wow. You've found a verse that applies to you.

There is no need to be insulting. In fact, by saying something like this, it only helps to weaken your argument and not to prove it to be true in any way. For God's people are supposed to speak in a loving manner and we are not to hurl insults at each other.​

Nope. He'll hold them accountable for not using readily available Bible study helps.

Uh, not every poor person can afford the internet or Concordances with attached Lexicons. Some barely have enough money to put food on the table some months.

James 3:2 contains the word "perfect"

This is not an example that helps to prove your case in any way. Nowhere does James 3:2 suggest a negative thing in relation to the word "perfect." It mentions a positive thing in relation to the word "perfect." For it says the man who does not offend in word is a perfect man.

teleios
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

​

Lexicons with an attached Concordance are not actually divinely inspired Scripture. It is merely a commentary or the opinion of some men of what they think the Word of God actually says. James Strong and his buddies did not write divinely inspired Scripture.


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[FreeGrace2]

And you think the people who wrote Concordances (with an attached Lexicon) had grown up reading and speaking Biblical Greek during Biblical times? Do you believe these people lived during the times of the apostle Paul? How do you know they are not wrong in their interpretation from over the many years that have passed after that language was no longer in use anymore?



No. A person re-hashing what some person believes that languages says is not the same thing as a person who actually grew up in that time period speaking and writing that language and who would no doubt correct the scholars of this day and age for falsely misunderstanding the Bible in what it says.



Jesus said beware of the Scribes. A scribe is a person who trans-SCRIBES the Word. Who would be the Scribes of today? It would be the scholars of our day. Should we not be testing everything they say, especially if Jesus said to beware of the Scribes?



I can say the same for you. But that is not a real answer or refutation of knowing what the Hebrew and Greek says by knowing what the Word plainly says in your own language.



I am very familar with 2 Timothy 2:15 and I believe what it says. But nowhere does it mention the Greek as a requirement in studying the Word, though. That is an assumption you are placing upon the text that is not there.

In fact, the thing is that by what you have said to me so far, you are giving me the impression that you do not completely believe 2 Timothy 2:15. How so? Well, the verse says to study to show yourself APPROVED unto God. But according to OSAS, or Eternal Security, you are already "approved" by God. There is nothing more you can do to be "approved" by Him. Your belief in Jesus is all you need to be right with Him. At least that is the impression I get when I have talked with you and others in regards to Eternal Security. Is that true? If not, then please explain using the Word of God, my friend.



In Acts chapter 2, God was able to communicate to people in their own tongue and language. It is silly to assume God has changed in regards to doing that (See Acts 2:4-13). For in verse 4, it says they were filled with the Holy Spirit and they spake with other tongues (Acts 2:4).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).



God is not a respecter of persons. He would make things equal for all men of different time periods. In other words, you are saying that the men who did not have these Lexicons available to them by way of the internet in the past would just be out of luck in understanding God's Word. I don't believe that. The Scriptures say that the Spirit can guide a believer into all truth. This would be all believers thru out all time (Regardless if they had a Lexicon or not).



His Word does not change even if His Word is spoken in another language. This is evident by what happened at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.

There is no need to be insulting. In fact, by saying something like this, it only helps to weaken your argument and not to prove it to be true in any way. For God's people are supposed to speak in a loving manner and we are not to hurl insults at each other.​

Uh, not every poor person can afford the internet or Concordances with attached Lexicons. Some barely have enough money to put food on the table some months.



This is not an example that helps to prove your case in any way. Nowhere does James 3:2 suggest a negative thing in relation to the word "perfect." It mentions a positive thing in relation to the word "perfect." For it says the man who does not offend in word is a perfect man.



Lexicons with an attached Concordance are not actually divinely inspired Scripture. It is merely a commentary or the opinion of some men of what they think the Word of God actually says. James Strong and his buddies did not write divinely inspired Scripture....

Your mind has been made up already, and that's your freedom. But know this: eternal life is God's life. He is eternal life. And He gives His life to those who have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation.

The life that God gives is NOT revocable. He doesn't take it back. Nor can one lose it. They may lose their mind, but no one can lose the life that God gives. It is irrevocable.

Because of this, the Bible is clear on eternal security. Once given eternal life, always has eternal life. That's what OSAS really means. And that is eternal security.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your mind has been made up already, and that's your freedom. But know this: eternal life is God's life. He is eternal life. And He gives His life to those who have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation.

The life that God gives is NOT revocable. He doesn't take it back. Nor can one lose it. They may lose their mind, but no one can lose the life that God gives. It is irrevocable.

Because of this, the Bible is clear on eternal security. Once given eternal life, always has eternal life. That's what OSAS really means. And that is eternal security.

But where does the Bible actually say all of this, though?

As for Romans 11:29: Well, I have already shown you that Romans 11:29 is speaking to unsaved Israel which means it is talking to unsaved individuals and not saved individuals. It is talking about how the receiving of God's gift(s) (that come with conditions in receiving them) remain unchanged. It is not talking about after a person receives His gift(s). That is something you are impressing upon the text that is not there. For you have to understand that God's people (Israel) were broken off because of their unbelief (Romans 11:20). This applies to us Gentiles, as well (Romans 11:21-22). For God is not a respecter of persons (Romans 2:11).

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[faither]

For any anti-OSAS folks who would like to rational discuss this further, I have a few question for you starting with three regarding Gal 5:1.

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Gal 5:1)

What does Paul want his listeners to stand firm against?

Set us free from what?

What does Paul mean by "the yoke of slavery"?

Hi Brian, new here, just thought id get my first post out of the way and share my understanding with you. Gods burden is light, but it's still a burden. His yoke is easy, but it's still a yoke. I know this doesn't disprove osas, just thought i'd put in my two cents. As for osas, my problem has never been as much with the always saved portion of the equation. It's the once saved portion that I see as the stumbling block. If your open minded to some things you may not know yet, we could discuss osas. It's not my favorite topic, but I got to start somewhere.

Faither

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hi Brian, new here, just thought id get my first post out of the way and share my understanding with you. Gods burden is light, but it's still a burden. His yoke is easy, but it's still a yoke. I know this doesn't disprove osas, just thought i'd put in my two cents. As for osas, my problem has never been as much with the always saved portion of the equation. It's the once saved portion that I see as the stumbling block. If your open minded to some things you may not know yet, we could discuss osas. It's not my favorite topic, but I got to start somewhere.

Faither

Faither, I am on CF to attempt rational discussion on this and other subjects. It's near impossible; however, if you would like to answer the question I posed, please do. No one else has.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Faither, I am on CF to attempt rational discussion on this and other subjects. It's near impossible; however, if you would like to answer the question I posed, please do. No one else has.

I would be happy to answer your question with Scripture. What is the question?
However, please take note that personal questions is not the point of topic of a Bible discussion. We are here to discuss the Holy Scriptures (Which is why we are on a Christian forum). Talking about one's personal life would be a Facebook discussion. We are here to discuss the Bible and not our personal lives. Also, all spiritual matters can be answered by the Word of God. For a believer's life is not the standard, but it is the Word of God that is the standard. For you have to remember that the whole world was sinful and wicked and it was destroyed by a global flood as an example of all who would live ungodly there after (Whereas Noah was a preacher of righteousness) who was spared. In other words, Noah could not judge the standard of righteousness by looking at others around him (like many try to do today). Just because they were not living righteously does not mean Noah believed it was impossible to live a holy or righteous life. Besides, how could Noah be a preacher of righteousness if he was not living righteously?

As for your quote of Proverbs 26:4 in relation to "fools being added to your ignore list": Well, I hope that this is not those believers who simply disagree with you on a particular subject or teaching in the faith that is controversial or a heated topic. We are told in God's Word to bear with those who preach a false Christ or gospel (2 Corinthians 11:4). Also, I do not think it is wise to post such a verse in this instance, too. God's Word can say that people are fools (Because it is God saying that), and close friends in Christ can rebuke each other by using such language in love like Paul did, but to say this to strangers or other believers you do not know well is cold in my opinion. For Paul says, let your conversation be full of grace seasoned with salt.


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[sdowney717]

I would be happy to answer your question with Scripture. What is the question?
However, please take note that personal questions is not the point of topic of a Bible discussion (Which is why we are on a Christian forum). Talking about one's personal life would be a Facebook discussion. We are here to discuss the Bible and not our personal lives. Also, all spiritual matters can be answered by the Word of God. For a believer's life is not the standard, but it is the Word of God that is the standard. For you have to remember that the whole world was sinful and wicked and it was destroyed by a global flood as an example of all who would live ungodly there after (Whereas Noah was a preacher of righteousness) who was spared. In other words, Noah could not judge the standard of righteousness by looking at others around him (like many try to do today). Just because they were not living righteously does not mean Noah believed it was impossible to live a holy or righteous life. Besides, how could Noah be a preacher of righteousness if he was not living righteously?

As for your quote of Proverbs 26:4 in relation to "fools being added to your ignore list": Well, I hope that this is not those believers who simply disagree with you on a particular subject or teaching in the faith that is controversial or a heated topic. We are told in God's Word to bear with those who preach a false Christ or gospel (2 Corinthians 11:4). Also, I do not think it is wise to post such a verse in this instance, too. God's Word can say that people are fools (Because it is God saying that), and close friends in Christ can rebuke each other by using such language in love like Paul did, but to say this to strangers or other believers you do not know well is cold in my opinion. For Paul says, let your conversation be full of grace seasoned with salt.


....

No we are not told to bear with those who preach a false gospel. We are actually told to avoid them.
When Christ cast out the demons, He refused them permission to speak.
Romans 16
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

 

[sdowney717]

We are also told to do this
Jude
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

So if people do not listen to you (the disciples were told), Christ says to
Matthew 10
14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

At some point enough words have been said. Further arguing over words wont change the situation with a person, and God will eventually crush Satan. If God does not change a persons mind by allowing their repentance, certainly no human can. However, we are to continually contend for the faith by testifying and preaching and sharing the truth openly exposing works of darkness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Your mind has been made up already, and that's your freedom. But know this: eternal life is God's life. He is eternal life. And He gives His life to those who have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation.

The life that God gives is NOT revocable. He doesn't take it back. Nor can one lose it. They may lose their mind, but no one can lose the life that God gives. It is irrevocable.

Because of this, the Bible is clear on eternal security. Once given eternal life, always has eternal life. That's what OSAS really means. And that is eternal security."

But where does the Bible actually say all of this, though?

Really? I've already pointed out exactly WHERE the Bible teaches this. Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29. The gifts of God aren't different in these 2 verses. They are the same thing. You've not proven otherwise.

As for Romans 11:29: Well, I have already shown you that Romans 11:29 is speaking to unsaved Israel which means it is talking to unsaved individuals and not saved individuals. It is talking about how the receiving of God's gift(s) (that come with conditions in receiving them) remain unchanged.

And I've refuted your views soundly. First, the word isn't "unchanged". It's irrevocable. Second, the gift is what is received, not just offered.

Eternal life IS the gift of God. And once received, it is IRREVOCABLE.

It is not talking about after a person receives His gift(s).

You couldn't be more wrong. It definitely is. But to accept that fact, one must jettison their views on conditional security.

And you've not proven that the verse isn't talking about AFTER a person receives the gift. You're treating the verse as if the gift is merely an offer of something, not the thing itself. And you couldn't be more wrong.

That is something you are impressing upon the text that is not there.

Please look into a mirror when you say that.

For you have to understand that God's people (Israel) were broken off because of their unbelief (Romans 11:20). This applies to us Gentiles, as well (Romans 11:21-22).

The metaphor used is an agricultural one, and deals with being used by God or not. Because Israel was locked in unbelief, God was not using them for His service. And keep in mind that the Jews were quite proud of their status as being God's chosen people. But Paul dashes that idea by telling them that unbelief results in be "cast off" from service for God. The Jews thought they were IN service for God.

There is nothing in Rom 11 about loss of salvation. It's about loss of being in service to God. That was quite a shock to orthodox Jews, to think that God wasn't using them.

And, once again, eternal life IS the gift. Not the offer of eternal life. Eternal life itself. And once given, it is irrevocable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No we are not told to bear with those who preach a false gospel. We are actually told to avoid them.
When Christ cast out the demons, He refused them permission to speak.
Romans 16
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Then you have a contradiction in the Bible (Which is not possible).

2 Corinthians 11:4 says,
"For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him."

So how do we resolve Romans 16:17-20 with 2 Corinthians 11:4? It's simple.
2nd Corinthians is dealing with evangelizing and Romans is dealing with fellowship.

Besides, when I read Romans 6:17-20, I do not get the impression that these are believers who have a pure heart and who desire to live holy before God (Whereby they give glory to God for any good in their life). These individuals in Romans 16 are described as saying they serve their own belly. Is it not a coincidence that OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) or Eternal Security makes room for sin (Which would serve one's own interests, sins, or their own belly - i.e. their pleasures)? Granted, many here will object and say that a Christian is not described as living an excessively sinful life. But see, if you say you can never stop sinning and you are not saved by the Sanctification process or by any good deeds God does in your life, then that is giving other people a license to sin (Whether you want that to happen or not). For even making an allowance for a little bit of sin over the course of the rest of your life (sinning less and less) would still be unacceptable to God. God is not unrighteous and He cannot agree with a believer's thinking of justifying some kind of future sin on your part (Even if it was just one sin). I mean, do you honestly believe that God (Who is good) would condone sin? You have to if you believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine, my friend.

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