The Last Saints

[5thKingdom]

Still waiting for your refutation of the motorcycles in Revelation. Until then your doctrine is fraudulent by your own standards.

LOL... you MOCK the Word of God.

That says it all.

/

 

[5thKingdom]

Revelation 20:4 is not talking about when Satan is bound.

No... but that is a STRAWMAN
because verse 3 and verse 7 talks about Satan's binding
Is this really "news" to you? It should not be.


Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


/

 

[Jipsah]

LOL... you MOCK the Word of God.

Nope, just your insane babble.

That says it all./

The fact that you can't discern between your own imaginings and the Bible says it all.

 

[5thKingdom]

No, the final harvest happens during the Trumpets and Thunders after the Second Coming in the 6th Seal.

WRONG...


The Bible is clear the Final Harvest happens BEFORE the Second Beast is destroyed and BEFORE the 2nd Woe is past.
Here are five (5) passages that contradict your false doctrine.
Will you submit to the "harmony of Scripture"
or will you REJECT the Word of God
to protect a false doctrine?


Notice the Final Harvest is highlighted in RED.


(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".


(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".


(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!


(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.


(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.4


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Nope, just your insane babble.

When you cannot support anything with Scripture
you cannot offer an "informed opinion"
Sorry

.

 

[Timtofly]

That is because the Bible only teaches there is ONE period when Satan is "bound" in the Pit for 1000 years.
Do you have SCRITURE that teaches Satan is "bound" for 1000 years and then he is "loosened"...
only to be "bound" in the Pit again... and then "loosened" from the Pit a second time.

You don't state those thousand years started in the first century. Are you avoiding that point?

 

[Timtofly]

No
The antichrist is the one ordering their heads be chopped off because they have rejected him as the messiah and they have accept Jesus as Messiah.
No one seems to understand the purpose of Revelation. It's God's judgement against a world that has rejected His Son Jesus Christ as Messiah.
Do we need to be here because of that? No, we have accepted Jesus as Messiah and Savior. This judgement is against His enemies and to setup His reign as King of Kings on earth. The Kingdom of God on planet earth. Just like the Jews were lead out of Egypt after passover to go to the promised land. So will the true church of Jesus Christ leave this earth for Heaven to stay until the the end of the tribulation. Then He will fulfill His promises to the Jewish people in the Millennium.

Does it matter who chops off those heads? Because unless your head is chopped off, you won't be resurrected. If you have a head with a mark on it, you will be cast into the LOF. There are no fence sitters, here. It is one or the other.

 

[Timtofly]

Except Daniel 8 PROMISES the Abomination of Desolation last 2300 days (literally "evenings/mornings")
so the BIBLE destroys your "theory" about 42 months.

Deal with Scripture:


Dan 8:13-14
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? [what is the DURATION of AOD?]
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


How is it that you do not harmonize Daniel 8 into your theories?
Do you REJECT the Word of God.

BTW... the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast is shown as:
3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (your 42 months)
and 3.5 "watches of the night"

It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to understand the TRUTH about Daniel's AOD
when you intentionally ignore ALL RELATED passages.
That is how "Bible Study" works...
Is this "news" to you?

/

Sorry but that happened in 167BC, with Antiochus Epiphanes.

Revelation 13:5

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

42 months is what John witnessed and wrote down.

 

[Timtofly]

No... but that is a STRAWMAN
because verse 3 and verse 7 talks about Satan's binding
Is this really "news" to you? It should not be.


Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


/

Now you are avoiding your own point:

LOL
Rev 20:4 is talking about the Beast WHILE Satan is in the Pit.
Do you REALLY think the Revelation Beast [Rev 13] exists WHILE Satan is in the Pit?

That is hilarious.
Do you NOT see how ridiculous that is?

You claim those beheaded are with the beast while Satan is in the pit.

"them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"

Satan was bound, just before these people were given life. Satan was bound after they were physically dead. Satan was not in the pit while these people were being beheaded. This beast is the model for the image come to life. Satan was not in the pit when the image was set up. The beast in Revelation 20:4 is the first beast mentioned in Revelation 13:5 who is an individual who is given 42 months of authority. Satan was not bound prior to these 42 months, nor during these 42 months. This beast is cast into the LOF at Armageddon, the same point Satan is placed in the pit, at the start of the 1,000 years. The FP and the image (come to life) are in the LOF for 1,000 years while Satan is bound in the pit.

Those beheaded in Revelation 20:4 are beheaded in that 42 month period. They are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies and reign in the camp of the saints with Christ for 1,000 years while Satan is bound. The same 1,000 years the FP and beast are in the LOF. The rest of the dead are still in sheol for those 1,000 years. They were not resurrected and judged at the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

WRONG...


The Bible is clear the Final Harvest happens BEFORE the Second Beast is destroyed and BEFORE the 2nd Woe is past.

The beast is destroyed at Armageddon. That is after the 7 vials, not before the 2nd Woe.

Obviously the final harvest is over before the 3rd Woe, the 7th Trumpet. The 7 Thunders happen between the 6th Trumpet (2nd Woe) and the 7th Trumpet (3rd Woe).

BTW, the woes are just Satan's involvement in the events that happen at the time of each Trumpet.

The first woe is Satan's angels unleashed on the world.

The second woe is Satan's demonic army of "motorcycle riders".

The third woe is 42 months of the AoD Jesus warned about in Matthew 24:15-20.

If I am wrong, why do you leave out the 7 Thunders, which is the final harvest? The sheep and goats are the harvest during the Trumpets. The wheat and tares, where the term "final harvest" comes from is the Thunders. The wheat and tares represent the harvest of the nations after the church, and after Israel.

If you want harmony, the nations came first post Flood. Then Israel was called out of the nations. Then the church was called out of those scattered all over the earth, neither Israel, nor nations, because the church was personal, not ethnic nor governmental.

Please explain why the Thunders are not between the 2nd and 3rd woes?

Revelation 10:1-4

Here are five (5) passages:

Notice the Final Harvest is highlighted in RED.


(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".

Matthew 13:37-42

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (the final harvest) ; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The final harvest is over before the 7th Trumpet. You say it is over before the 6th Trumpet. The 7 Thunders is the sowing and reaping by Jesus and the angels already on the earth since the 6th Seal was opened.

Now the virgins are split 50/50. Are you saying the sheep and goats are split 50/50? Or is there a 1/3rd remnant?

(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".

They leave Babylon by chopping their heads off to avoid the mark of the beast. Revelation 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 are after the 7th Trumpet already started sounding.

This empire only lasts for 42 months, per Revelation 13. It is destroyed at Armageddon. Those beheaded are the gleanings, after the final harvest. You know about the gleanings from Ruth, right? Those beheaded are the leftovers, and quite frankly the only reason the Lord of the harvest allows the harvest to last another 42 months. Otherwise the 7th Trumpet sounds, and the grapes are crushed in Revelation 14, with no Babylonian empire at all. If Daniel 9:27 does not happen in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, then Revelation 14 is followed by Revelation 20 and Satan is bound for 1,000 years.

(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!

The marriage takes place if Satan is granted time or denied time. The supper has nothing to do with Satan's Babylonian empire on earth. Besides those souls killed don't even have heads. How are they going to eat with the rest of the diners? They don't even get bodies until after Satan is bound. Probably should not try to hang around on earth waiting to get your head chopped off, just because the opportunity may present itself.

(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.

No, only the 2 witnesses are granted life. Those beheaded are not resurrected until after Satan is bound. The 2 witnesss are not the final harvest. They are the ones going around killing people. The 7 Thunders in Revelation 10 happen before the 2 witnesses even start. The 2 witnesses are not before the 7 Thunders.

(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.4

Yes, those saints on horses coming out of heaven at Armageddon. Those are the final harvest of the sheep and wheat during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are not the church removed at the 6th Seal.

They are still gathered in the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Before the 3rd Woe. In fact, they won't even leave earth, if there are no 42 months given to Satan. Why would the marriage supper prevent them from starting the 1,000 year reign and Satan being bound in the pit? You can force the supper into Revelation at any point, but it seems like a week long celebration of the 7th Trumpet is as good a time to have a great celebration feast as any other time.

Besides, we are to come out of the world as an ongoing phenomenon. We don't have to wait like the foolish Virgins, 3.5 years after the Second Coming. You know those people waiting to get their heads chopped off.

If you want to harmonize the parables of Matthew 25 with each other, that is fine. How do you harmonize Matthew 25 with all the OT? What if the 3rd Woe never even happens? We are to be prepared way before the Second Coming. What is the point to prepare for something that may not happen, if you avoid preparing for the one event that does, the Second Coming?

I would hate to be the appointed leader of those beheaded people, trying to prepare them for what is to come. Especially if that 42 months does not even happen. But then that may be a good thing, because there may not be any foolish Virgins at all, but all 10 were ready, at the appropriate time.

 

[DavidPT]

The beast is destroyed at Armageddon. That is after the 7 vials, not before the 2nd Woe.

No matter how you look at it, his interpretation involving Revelation 19:20 is utterly bizarre. He has that verse being fulfilled before Christ even returns first. How is it even logical that the beast and false prophet can be captured, then judged and sentenced to the LOF, a literal place, without it even involving Christ having returned first? But in his mind, no one is able to refute anything he claims is the correct interpretation of these events. LOL. Common sense alone refutes his interpretation of some of these things since it is preposterous that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving Christ having returned first.

Maybe he needs to switch his position to Preterism since he might find some agreement there, that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without Christ having to return first? Maybe he should equally think that when satan is cast into the LOF per Revelation 20:10, and that humans are cast into the LOF per Revelation 20:11-15, Christ hasn't returned yet either. The point being, obviously, the events involving Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:11-15, the LOF is in view and that Christ has returned at this point. Obviously, per Revelation 19:20 the LOF is also in view. And if Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:11-15 require that Christ has to be present to fulfill that, then so does Revelation 19:20 require that.

And if Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled, the only thing that can possibly explain the rest of the beasts lives being prolonged for a season and time is the thousand years and satan's little season. Which then obviously places the thousand years and satan's little season after the 2nd coming, not prior to it. In order to debunk this, one first has to undeniably prove that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving Christ having to return first. Or undeniably prove that Daniel 7:12 is not meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. Otherwise Daniel 7:12 undeniably proves that the thousand years and satan's little season are after the 2nd coming.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
That is because the Bible only teaches there is ONE period when Satan is "bound" in the Pit for 1000 years.
Do you have SCRITURE that teaches Satan is "bound" for 1000 years and then he is "loosened"...
only to be "bound" in the Pit again... and then "loosened" from the Pit a second time.

You don't state those thousand years started in the first century. Are you avoiding that point?

No... because the QUESTION was Rev 20:3 did not mention the 1000 years.

I was simply showing the period is mentioned in verse 4 and verse 7

I was not addressing WHEN the period occurred

As was understood by many Saints for 2000 years

the period starts at the Cross


/

 

[5thKingdom]

No matter how you look at it, his interpretation involving Revelation 19:20 is utterly bizarre. He has that verse being fulfilled before Christ even returns first. How is it even logical that the beast and false prophet can be captured, then judged and sentenced to the LOF, a literal place, without it even involving Christ having returned first?

Sigh...
how many times must I explain this to you?

The Lord does NOT return until the 7th Trumpet

The Beast is destroyed BEFORE the 6th Trumpet is past.

This is not hard

You are struggling because of presuppositions you have which are not Biblical

But more importantly...

I asked you to show me ONE VERSE that teaches Jesus Returns
when the Beast is destroyed [Dan 7:11-12 and Rev 19:20]

You have not done that... WHY

The Bible contains no such verse

And yet you continue to struggle because you refuse to submit

to WHAT the Bible teaches

you insist on interpretations based on your presupostions

I your doctrine is NOT a false doctrine... prove it

provide ONE VERSE teaching Christ returns BEFORE the 6th Trumpet is finished.

You cannot

So CHANGE your presuppositions.... if you want to find Biblical truth

It's really as simple as that

/

 

[5thKingdom]

Common sense alone refutes his interpretation of some of these things since it is preposterous that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving Christ having returned first.

LOL... you now pretend that Biblical Truth is found with common sense?

What a joke...

Again, focus on your task

If your interpretation if correct then you MUST be able to show it from Scripture

provide ONE VERSE teaching Jesus returns BEFORE the 2nd Woe and 6th Trumpet is past

Otherwise you are just talking Secular mumbo-jumbo

Use SCRIPTURE... can you do that?


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Maybe he needs to switch his position to Preterism since he might find some agreement there,

No... I have harmony of Scripture here.

YOU cannot refute anything I said from Scripture

YOU pretend that common sense is all that's needed... LOL

Sir...

WHY in the world are you continuing to offer your "feelings" over-and-over-and-over

When your DUTY is to provide SCRIPTURE

teaching Jesus returns BEFORE the end of the 2nd Woe and 6th Trumpet

The Bible has a chronology

you cannot find it

So you give "feelings" instead

LOL


/

 

[5thKingdom]

And if Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled,

This is not hard buddy...

Dan 7:11-12 is AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed

Rev 19:20 is AFTER the Revelation Beast is destroyed

Try to FOCUS

Deal with WHAT these verses say

And show the Lord Returns BEFORE the 2nd Woe is past
WHEN these events happen

If you cannot do that you cannot pretend to be qualified or capable
of offering an "informed opinion" on this matter

It really is as simple as that


/

 

[5thKingdom]

In order to debunk this, one first has to undeniably prove that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving Christ having to return first.

No... in order to REFUTE this doctrine

YOU must show SCRIPTURE teaching the Lord Returns
WHEN the Beasts are destroyed.

But you cannot do that because

(1) the Beasts are destroyed BEFORE the end of the 2nd Woe and 6th Trumpet

(2) Christ returns AFTER the 2nd Woe "is past"...
He returns at the 7th Trumpet (not the 6th)

Your problem is SCRIPTURE contradicts your "feelings"
You cannot offer ONE VERSE to support your "feelings"
and yet you want pretend your "feelings" matter.

I PROMISE you your "feelings" do not establish Biblical Truth
prove ONE VERSE teaching Jesus returns BEFORE the 7th Trump
and THEN (and only then) can you pretend to offer an informed opinion

It's really as simple as that


/

 

[5thKingdom]

The beast is destroyed at Armageddon. That is after the 7 vials, not before the 2nd Woe.

I have already provided these SCRIPTURES several times....

WHY must I re-post them? Will you DEAL with them now?



(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!


(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.


The Final Harvest is BEFORE the Second Woe is finished
please DEAL with what Scripture says and NOT what your presuppositions say
Can you do that?

Can you REFUTE point (#4) above?


/

 

[5thKingdom]

BTW, the woes are just Satan's involvement in the events that happen at the time of each Trumpet.

LOL...
the Woes indicate timing
the Trumpets indicate timing
the two Beasts indicate timing
the two "heads/kings" indicate timing

You demonstrate you do not understand the CHRONOLOGY of the Fourth Beast
so you cannot offer an "informed opinion" on that chronolgy.

It's as simple as that



/

 

[5thKingdom]

This empire only lasts for 42 months, per Revelation 13.

LOL...
your continue to pretend that Rev 13 is the ONLY passage about the DURATION of the Fourth Kingdom

That means you REJECT all the OTHER passages of the Word of God talking about the DURATION being

3.5 "times"
3.5 "days"

It also means you REJECT the Word of God in OTHER passages showing

Daniel's AOD lasts for 2300 days.

So...

you can pretend to know something when you REJECT related passages
but you only show you refuse to submit to what the Bible teaches
and, therefore, you have no hope of finding Truth


BTW... for you to pretend such an important event as the DURATION of the Fourth Kingdom
is only found in ONE VERSE indicates

(1) how naive you are

(2) how you have not really STUDIED this matter since MANY Saints have found ADDITION verse
that you REJECT

Good luck with your limited Bible study and your ignorance of Church teaching on this matter

.