The Last Saints

[Clare73]

Matthew 21:43 is an interesting verse because it summaries what is shown in Matthew 22
where the "Kingdom of God" is "taken away" from the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom"
and it's "given" to the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom" which consisted
of those following the Lord Jesus Christ.


While the phrase "Kingdom of God" is used 70 times in the Bible
it always represents the Saints in the Eternal Kingdom
OR the phrase is used to indicate the Holy Spirit.


In this case, In Mat 21:43
The Lord is teaching the Holy Spirit will be "taken" from the Jewish Kingdom
and it will be "given" to the Christian Kingdom following Christ.


This transition of the "Kingdom of Heaven" going from Old Testament Saints
to New Testament Saints - is clearly shown in the verses of Matthew 22


Notice: Jesus specifically called the Jewish nation the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
because that was God's Kingdom until the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
replaced those Jews who God had forsaken - and replaced them with the Christians following the Lord.



The beginning verses
establish the Jews were the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2] at that time:



Mat 22:1-7
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner:
my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it,
and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them
spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers,
and burned up their city.


Having established [v1-7] the Jewish Kingdom would be destroyed,
the following verses establish the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13 - in 7 verses]
consisting of those who follow the Lord Jesus Christ.


Mat 22:8-14
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out
into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Oops... the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" consisted of saved "wheat/sheep" IN THE CHURCH (sown by God)
and unsaved "tares/goats" IN THE CHURCH (sown by Satan). These "wheat and tares" LOOK alike (but they are not)
and their Gospels often SOUND alike (but they are not). These unsaved "tares" bring "leaven" which corrupts the Gospel.
Just read Revelation chapters 2 and 3 to see the extent of corruption before the end of the first century.
The "wheat and tares" grow together during the Church Age, they are separated in the Final Harvest.


The prophecy continues... talking about that Final Harvest:


And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called [by the Gospel], but few are chosen [elected to be saved].


To come full circle:
Matthew 21:43 is talking about the events of Matthew 22:1-14
as the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" became the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"





Daniel 7:27 must be understood in harmony with the following:Are


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] Horn made war with the [Last] Saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment [understanding] was given to the [Last] Saints of the most High;
and the time came that [all] the Saints possessed the [eternal] Kingdom.


Dan 7:24-26
And the Ten Horns out of this [fourth] Kingdom are Ten Kings that shall arise:
and another [Little Horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
And he [the Little Horn] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws: and they [the Last Saints] shall be given into his hand [shall be ruled by him]
until a time and times and the dividing of time. [3.5 "times" is the length of the Fourth / Revelation "Beast"]
But the judgment shall sit, and they [the Last Saints] shall take away his [the Little Horn's] dominion,
[they rule the Kingdom] to consume and to destroy it [the fourth Kingdom/Beast] unto the end.



Jim

Are you saying there is more than one eternal (everlasting) kingdom of God?

 

[DavidPT]

This is not hard buddy...

Dan 7:11-12 is AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed

Rev 19:20 is AFTER the Revelation Beast is destroyed

Try to FOCUS

Deal with WHAT these verses say

And show the Lord Returns BEFORE the 2nd Woe is past
WHEN these events happen

If you cannot do that you cannot pretend to be qualified or capable
of offering an "informed opinion" on this matter

It really is as simple as that


/

At least I finally made your buddy list. I can't exactly say that I think that might be a good thing, though. Meaning from your perspective not mine.

We both agree that Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. What we don't agree about is that Revelation 19:20 can't get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Pretty much every saint I have encountered over the years, which includes Premils and Amils, except for Preterists, take verse 11 to be meaning the 2nd coming. Verse 11 then explains verses 19-21, and that verse 14 explains verses 19-21 as well. There is no way that verse 20 occurs first, then verse 11 and verse 14 occur sometime after that. Verse 11 and verse 14 already occur before verse 20 does. Because, unless verse 11 occurs first, verse 20 can't occur in the meantime.

The only thing that can possibly convince me I'm wrong is by someone undeniably proving Daniel 7:12 is not meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. You of course are not going to try and convince me of that the fact you agree with that. But there are numerous Amils that disagree that Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. And that it is plainly obvious why they disagree. They disagree because they fully realize that Revelation 19:20 can't get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first, and to then take Daniel 7:12 to be meaning after Revelation 19:20 would contradict Amil, thus prove Premil.

Which then makes the issue between you and me, this---can Revelation 19:20 be fulfilled without Christ having to return first? Personally, other than you, I don't know of a single Amil nor Premil that would agree that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without Christ having to return first. Excluding Preterists of course. So, meaning any Amil or Premil who agrees that Revelation 19 involves Christ's 2nd coming in the end of this age.

 

[Jipsah]

Maybe he needs to switch his position to Preterism since he might find some agreement there, that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without Christ having to return first?

No.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
Matthew 21:43 is an interesting verse because it summaries what is shown in Matthew 22
where the "Kingdom of God" is "taken away" from the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom"
and it's "given" to the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom" which consisted
of those following the Lord Jesus Christ.

Are you saying there is more than one eternal (everlasting) kingdoms of God?

No, I am not

and there is NOTHING I said to imply otherwise

Clare... you have been decent to me so I will EXPLAIN

you need to understand TWO THINGS
and neither could be understood without an exhaustive study on HOW
the Bible defines it's own terms;


(1) The phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is used 33 times in the Bible
and in EVERY case it represents one of these

(a) The "wheat and tares" living in the Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is saved

(b) The "wheat and tares" living in the Great Tribulation Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is saved

(3) The "wheat" (but NO TARES) living in the Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"


(2) The phrase "Kingdom of God" is used 70 times in the Bible and it ALWAYS represents

(a) the "wheat" in the Eternal Kingdom or the SPIRIT OF GOD


Matthew 21:43 shows the SPIRIT OF GOD
being TAKEN from the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
and GIVEN to the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"


I hope this clarifies what the BIBLE teaches about this phrases...
As I said, I have done an exhaustive study of EACH TIME these phrases is used.
That is the ONLY WAY to understand how the Bible DEFINES the phrases


/

 

[Jipsah]

LOL... you MOCK the Word of God.

That says it all.

It says that you can't distinguish between your own ridiculous imaginings and the Word of God.

 

[5thKingdom]

We both agree that Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. What we don't agree about is that Revelation 19:20 can't get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first.

Please stop

Your job is to provide ONE VERSE that teaches Jesus returns

BEFORE the 2nd Woe or 6th Trumpet is past

If you cannot do that then expressing your "feelings" does not matter

WHAT is so hard to understand

You have ZERO SCRIPTURES supporting you

Deal with that reality

I do not care about your "feelings"

I only care about SCRIPTURE

Why don't you?

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Pretty much every saint I have encountered over the years, which includes Premils and Amils, except for Preterists, take verse 11 to be meaning the 2nd coming. Verse 11 then explains verses 19-21, and that verse 14 explains verses 19-21 as well. There is no way that verse 20 occurs first, then verse 11 and verse 14 occur sometime after that. Verse 11 and verse 14 already occur before verse 20 does. Because, unless verse 11 occurs first, verse 20 can't occur in the meantime.

No... verses 11-19 cannot represent the bodily return of Christ
because verse 20 happens BEFORE the 7th Trumpet sounds.

Do you pretend Jesus returns BEFORE the 7th Trump?

Then HARMONIZE the fact that REv 19:20 ad Dan 7:11-12 happen
BEFORE the 7th Trump

If you cannot harmonize that reality then you MUST remain in darkness

The only thing that can possibly convince me I'm wrong is by someone undeniably proving Daniel 7:12 is not meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled.

Sigh...
Daniel 7:11-12 AND Rev a19:20 happen BEFORE the end of the 2nd Woe and 6th Trumpet

You must argue they happen AFTER the 7th Trumpet
But the Bible does not support your view

You REFUSE to show me WHERE the Bible teaches Jesus returns BEFORE the 7th Trumpet
THAT is your problem
Deal with it

But there are numerous Amils that disagree that Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled.

Sigh...
First you agree the TRUTH remained "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand"
and then you pretend Saints living in 50AD or 500AD or 1500AD could have the Truth...

Pleeeeese

/

 

[5thKingdom]

It says that you can't distinguish between your own ridiculous imaginings and the Word of God.

Right...

It is ME (and not you) that rejects the Word of God in Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10

You cannot be taken seriously

/

 

[Jipsah]

Right...

It is ME (and not you) that rejects the Word of God in Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10

Just so.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
Right...
It is ME (and not you) that rejects the Word of God in Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10

Just so.

I submit to Daniel 12

I accept the Biblical TRUTH of Daniel's prophecies remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" that TRUTH during the "Time-of-the-End"

YOU do not accept Dan 12:4 or 12:8-10
It is YOU that REJECTS the Word of God not me.

.

 

[Zao is life]

At least I finally made your buddy list. I can't exactly say that I think that might be a good thing, though. Meaning from your perspective not mine.

We both agree that Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. What we don't agree about is that Revelation 19:20 can't get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Pretty much every saint I have encountered over the years, which includes Premils and Amils, except for Preterists, take verse 11 to be meaning the 2nd coming. Verse 11 then explains verses 19-21, and that verse 14 explains verses 19-21 as well. There is no way that verse 20 occurs first, then verse 11 and verse 14 occur sometime after that. Verse 11 and verse 14 already occur before verse 20 does. Because, unless verse 11 occurs first, verse 20 can't occur in the meantime.

The only thing that can possibly convince me I'm wrong is by someone undeniably proving Daniel 7:12 is not meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. You of course are not going to try and convince me of that the fact you agree with that. But there are numerous Amils that disagree that Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. And that it is plainly obvious why they disagree. They disagree because they fully realize that Revelation 19:20 can't get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first, and to then take Daniel 7:12 to be meaning after Revelation 19:20 would contradict Amil, thus prove Premil.

Which then makes the issue between you and me, this---can Revelation 19:20 be fulfilled without Christ having to return first? Personally, other than you, I don't know of a single Amil nor Premil that would agree that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without Christ having to return first. Excluding Preterists of course. So, meaning any Amil or Premil who agrees that Revelation 19 involves Christ's 2nd coming in the end of this age.

I think Amils see Daniel 7:12 as a Markan Sandwich, going back to, and closing the part of the narrative which is spoken about in Daniel 7:4-6. So occurring before the rise of the 4th beast.

Historically, the Babylonian Empire (lion's) dominion was taken away by the Medo-Persian kings (the bear), and the dominion of the Medo-Persian kings was taken away by Alexander the Great (the leopard), which had four heads (Daniel 7:6).

Upon Alexander's death his empire was divided up between his four generals, and this gave rise to power-struggles between them which split the four kingdoms into even more kingdoms, but they retained their Greek character.

Eventually two of the original four heads of the leopard became more powerful than the rest - the Ptolemaic Egyptian "kingdom of the South" and its kings, and the Seleucid (Syrian) "kingdom of the North" and its kings.

When I listed Antiochus IV as the fourth beast, I was wrong. He is the type of the fourth king (the Antichrist), not the actual fourth beast.

Antiochus IV rose to power out of the Seleucid kingdom, so his kingdom was still one of the four heads of the third beast (the leopard).

But Daniel 7 tells us that the fourth beast will be destroyed by Christ, and Revelation 13 tells us that the final kingdom will have a body like a leopard, feet like a bear, and the mouth like the mouth of a lion.

So it's quite possible that Daniel 7:12 is referring to those three kingdoms - especially if we identify Revelation 13's beast as a combination of the first three beasts.

I believe that Antiochus IV, who rose out of the four heads of the 3rd beast (the leopard kingdom), is a type of that fourth king/kingdom to come - because his actions are a type of the actions of the Antichrist.

It's not that Antiochus IV IS Daniel's 4th beast, but a type of the 4th beast to come - which = Revelation 13 and 17's beast, ten kings + 8th king.

So going back (Markan Sandwich style) to what I was saying about the first three beasts of Daniel 7 (the lion, the bear, and the leopard), their kings each in turn had their dominion taken away from them, but they did not cease to exist. They will be destroyed with the fourth beast, because Revelation 13:2 tells us that the final beast (Daniel's 4th beast) incorporates all the others.

And Revelation 13:2's king was foreshadowed by Antiochus IV (because of his actions), who rose out of one of the four heads of the leopard kingdom.

 

[DavidPT]

I think Amils see Daniel 7:12 as a Markan Sandwich, going back to, and closing the part of the narrative which is spoken about in Daniel 7:4-6. So occurring before the rise of the 4th beast.

Historically, the Babylonian Empire (lion's) dominion was taken away by the Medo-Persian kings (the bear), and the dominion of the Medo-Persian kings was taken away by Alexander the Great (the leopard), which had four heads (Daniel 7:6).

Upon Alexander's death his empire was divided up between his four generals, and this gave rise to power-struggles between them which split the four kingdoms into even more kingdoms, but they retained their Greek character.

Eventually two of the original four heads of the leopard became more powerful than the rest - the Ptolemaic Egyptian "kingdom of the South" and its kings, and the Seleucid (Syrian) "kingdom of the North" and its kings.

When I listed Antiochus IV as the fourth beast, I was wrong. He is the type of the fourth king (the Antichrist), not the actual fourth beast.

Antiochus IV rose to power out of the Seleucid kingdom, so his kingdom was still one of the four heads of the third beast (the leopard).

But Daniel 7 tells us that the fourth beast will be destroyed by Christ, and Revelation 13 tells us that the final kingdom will have a body like a leopard, feet like a bear, and the mouth like the mouth of a lion.

So it's quite possible that Daniel 7:12 is referring to those three kingdoms - especially if we identify Revelation 13's beast as a combination of the first three beasts.

I believe that Antiochus IV, who rose out of the four heads of the 3rd beast (the leopard kingdom), is a type of that fourth king/kingdom to come - because his actions are a type of the actions of the Antichrist.

It's not that Antiochus IV IS Daniel's 4th beast, but a type of the 4th beast to come - which = Revelation 13 and 17's beast, ten kings + 8th king.

So going back (Markan Sandwich style) to what I was saying about the first three beasts of Daniel 7 (the lion, the bear, and the leopard), their kings each in turn had their dominion taken away from them, but they did not cease to exist. They will be destroyed with the fourth beast, because Revelation 13:2 tells us that the final beast (Daniel's 4th beast) incorporates all the others.

And Revelation 13:2's king was foreshadowed by Antiochus IV (because of his actions), who rose out of one of the four heads of the leopard kingdom.

These same Amils take Daniel 7:9-11 to be involving the great white throne judgment, though. Let's assume they are correct. It would mean the context of those verses pertain to when all the lost are cast into the LOF. Which then makes it nonsensical, that in a context such as that, that we then need to know what happened to the rest of the beasts earlier in history. How could that possibly be relevant if verses 9-11 are involving the great white throne judgment?

It is easy to debunk that verses 7-9 are involving the great white throne judgment. And here are some reasons how.

If the GWTJ is meant per verses 9-11, meaning Revelation 20:11-15, verse 12 would not be telling us that the rest of the beasts, their lives were prolonged for a season and time, it would instead be telling us that the rest of the beasts are also given to the burning flame at the time. Except it does not say that.

If the GWTJ is meant per verses 9-11, meaning Revelation 20:11-15, then where in those verses do we even see the beast and false prophet standing among any of the dead, then being judged and sentenced when they are? The beast and false prophet are already in the LOF before the GWTJ even begins, regardless when one insists the GWTJ is meaning.


If the GWTJ is meant per verses 9-11, meaning Revelation 20:11-15, then why are there no humans also being given to the burning flame when the little horn is?

So, IOW, right off the bat, these Amils don't even have a valid argument concerning verse 12 the fact they are not even interpreting verses 9-11 correctly to begin with, since none of that can be involving the GWTJ for the reasons I just provided.

And since verses 9-11 obviously involve Revelation 19:20, and that Revelation 19:20 obviously involves the 2nd coming, but that verses 9-11 obviously don't involve the GWTJ, the only thing verses 9-11 can be involving is what Revelation 19 is involving, and what Revelation 20:4 is involving. Revelation 20:4 then meaning when the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22 which is also involving what verses 9-11 are involving).

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

And then if we factor this in, it then makes sense to take verse 12 to be meaning after verse 11 is fulfilled, because someone other than just the saints have to serve and obey him, and that the saints would already be doing that to begin with. But the rest of the beasts wouldn't be doing that to begin with, but they would be when their dominion is taken away, and that their lives then are prolonged for a season and time.

 

[DavidPT]

Please stop

Your job is to provide ONE VERSE that teaches Jesus returns

BEFORE the 2nd Woe or 6th Trumpet is past

If you cannot do that then expressing your "feelings" does not matter

WHAT is so hard to understand

You have ZERO SCRIPTURES supporting you

Deal with that reality

I do not care about your "feelings"

I only care about SCRIPTURE

Why don't you?

LOL. Why would I need to do that when I don't even agree with that to begin with? I don't need to prove something nonsensical like that in order to prove you wrong. You are telling me that the only way you can be wrong and that I can be right, is if I can provide one verse that teaches Jesus returns before the 2nd Woe or 6th Trumpet is past. And that if I can't, this then proves you are correct and proves I am not correct. Nice try. I may have been born at night but I wasn't born last night.

What you need to do is demonstrate how it is reasonable, that if pretty much every saint on the planet, excluding Preterists in this case, conclude that Revelation 19:20 can't get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first, that millions, maybe even billions, of saints are wrong about this, and that it is you alone who is correct about this.

 

[5thKingdom]

You need to provide ONE VERSE teaching the Lord Returns BEFORE the end of the 2nd Woe

LOL. Why would I need to do that when I don't even agree with that to begin with?

LOL... why do you need to provide Scripture to support your doctrine.
Because you have NOTHING without Biblical validation
Duh

Listen, this is simple:
You pretend Jesus Returns BEFORE the 7th Trumpet... while the 6th Trumpet is sounding
THAT is the CONTEXT of Daniel 7:11-12

If you cannot find ONE VERSE to support your theory
then you have false doctrine

BTW... this is not an issue of what you believe (why pretend that?)
this is an issue of WHAT the Bible teaches... and the Bible is crystal clear
that Jesus Returns at the 7th Trump... NOT during the 6th Trump.

The Beast is destroyed BEFORE the 7th Trump
deal with the Scriptures instead of your "feelings" or "belief"
THAT is called "Bible Study"

I don't need to prove something nonsensical like that in order to prove you wrong.

WHEN you pretend Jesus Returns BEFORE the 7th Trumpet...
then you DO need to prove that from Scripture
of you have NOTHING

You are telling me that the only way you can be wrong and that I can be right, is if I can provide one verse that teaches Jesus returns before the 2nd Woe or 6th Trumpet is past.

Sigh...
The ONLY WAY you can be right is if you can prove Jesus Returns BEFORE the 2nd Woe is past.

The Bible teaches Jesus Returns at the 7th Trump
you insist He returns BEFORE that... so prove it.
This is not hard

The CONTEXT of Daniel 7:11-12 is during the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe
You claim Jesus Returns then... but you offer NOTHING but your "feelings" or your "belief"
That means NOTHING

And that if I can't, this then proves you are correct and proves I am not correct. Nice try. I may have been born at night but I wasn't born last night.

IF you cannot provide any Scripture to prove Jesus Returns BEFORE the 7th Trump
that PROVES your doctrine is a false doctrine with ZERO Biblical validation.

Does that prove me correct?
No.. if only proves your doctrine is a false doctrine
This not hard... you have a doctrine... now PROVE it with supporting Scripture
This is called "Bible Study"

What you need to do is demonstrate how it is reasonable, that if pretty much every saint on the planet, excluding Preterists in this case, conclude that Revelation 19:20 can't get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first,

LOL
Biblical Truth is not found by the doctrines of men.
I do not understand WHY you pretend otherwise ESPECIALLY
when you have already admitted that the TRUTH would remain "sealed"
from all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand"

On one side you say the TRUTH remains "sealed" until the Last Saints
on the other hand you say the TRUTH is known by people living in 50AD or 500AD or 1500AD..
you cannot have it BOTH ways

that millions, maybe even billions, of saints are wrong about this, and that it is you alone who is correct about this.

The Bible PROMISES the Truth remains "sealed" to ALL THOSE MILLIONS.
That is what the Bible PROMISES... and yet you pretend that millions understand what was "sealed"

BTW... as I have already told you, it is not just ME that understands.
You intentionally PRETEND in order to find comfort in your darkness
Other Saints do understand, it is YOU that does not understand
OR have Biblical validation for your false doctrine

But MAYBE I misunderstand your belief
... how many times do you think Jesus Returns?
Once in the 6th Trump and again in the 7th Trump...
is THAT your false doctrine?

/

 

[Jipsah]

GFQASE"

"

YOU do not accept Dan 12:4 or 12:8-10
It is YOU that REJECTS the Word of God not me.

.

5thKingdom said:

I submit to Daniel 12

Nah, you just assign a self-serving "meaning" to it and act as though that's what the Scripture says.

I accept the Biblical TRUTH of Daniel's prophecies remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" that TRUTH during the "Time-of-the-End"

Nah, you just assign a self-serving "meaning" to them and act as though that's what the Scripture says.

YOU do not accept Dan 12:4 or 12:8-10

I don't accept your self-serving made-up "meaning" for them; of course I don't! It's altogether fraudulent.

It is YOU that REJECTS the Word of God not me.

Once again, you aren't God, so you can't just make up a "meaning" for Scripture and proclaim it to be the Word of God. It's the word of one self-important old man who wants to palm himself off as a prophet of some sort. You have yet to figure out that a grand total of nobody is buying it.

By the bye, when are you going to offer your refutation of my riders-on-motorcycles revelation of Revelation? By your own rules, if you can't refute from Scripture it you have to accept as true. And,by denying it without the necessary refutation, that makes you at the least a Scoffer, and possibily evena false prophet. I think that given your insisting on th truth of your own self-aggrandizing and pompous "interpretation" of Daniel they constitute at least prima facie evidence that you're the latter. Doubleplus ungood, old man. If I were you I'd be more than a little fearful of beating that tub too hard. Instead of it making look like a bigshot, it could end up with you being seen as something worse than an egomaniacal blowhard.

 

[Zao is life]

I agree with everything you say except the following. I'll tell you why I disagree with this below:

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

And then if we factor this in, it then makes sense to take verse 12 to be meaning after verse 11 is fulfilled, because someone other than just the saints have to serve and obey him, and that the saints would already be doing that to begin with. But the rest of the beasts wouldn't be doing that to begin with, but they would be when their dominion is taken away, and that their lives then are prolonged for a season and time.

(Thank goodness we both agree that the millennium and the NHNE commences at the same time, otherwise you definitely will not agree with what is written below) (you might still not agree, but at least there's a chance):

Compare the books being opened and what follows in these passages:

Daniel 7
10 A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 13
8 And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.

This way it will already be known before the millennium commences whose names were not in the Book of Life (because they worshiped the beast whose names were not in the Book of Life, and those whose names were in the Book of Life, did not worship the beast);

The following passages in Daniel, Revelation, and Isaiah all agree:

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.

And the second death IS the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8).

Daniel 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And dominion and glory was given to Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.

Revelation 21
24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Isaiah 60
1 Arise, shine; for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD has risen on you.
5 Then you shall fear and become bright, and your heart shall throb and swell for joy; because the abundance of the sea shall turn to you, the wealth of the nations will come to you.
11 Therefore your gates will always be open; they will not be shut day nor night, to bring to you the wealth of the nations, and their kings may be led.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you will perish. Yes, those nations will be completely wasted.

So the nations of those in New Jerusalem can only be those who names were written in the Book of Life, i.e those who had not worshiped the beast.

Then at the close of the millennium we read:

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

It was already known by this time whose names were in the Book of Life: All the saints who had fallen asleep in Christ before the rise of the beast, and who had been resurrected from the dead when Christ came, PLUS those who refused to worship the beast (the names of all the rest were not in the Book of Life).

13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

There's no mention of the dead being anastasis (resurrected) at the time of the GWTJ, nor of them seen to be zao (alive in their human resurrected bodies) - which is unlike those who were beheaded for not worshiping the beast seen in Revelation 20:4-6 -

- whose names were in the Book of Life -

they had part in the first anastasis (resurrection), and they were seen zao (alive in their bodies).

But in Revelation 20:11-15, it's death and hades delivering up the dead in them and the dead are being judged.

And this is after Satan has been thrown into the Lake of Fire after his final little season - where the beast and false prophet were already thrown into.

Since it is only those whose names are in the Book of Life who will not worship the beast, then it's already known by the time Christ returns whose names are not in the Book of Life - so the books have already been opened, as Daniel 7:10 says

(so Daniel 7:10 agrees with the books being opened when the beast is destroyed).

Revelation 21
6 To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7-8 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

So here's the conclusion I come to from this:

1. There are no souls whose names have not been written in the Book of Life going into the millennium, or getting resurrected.

- which means that "the rest of the beasts" in Daniel 7 that had their dominion taken away but whose lives were spared for a season and a time, cannot be taken to mean it occurs after the beast has been destroyed,

- which also means that the close of the millennium will be just like it was with Adam, whose name was in the Book of Life before he sinned, and who had lived for who knows how many years (a thousand years maybe?) in the Garden of Eden during God's sabbath, after God had breathed His Spirit into Adam and he had become a living soul,

- but who nevertheless fell when God allowed Satan to test him.

Adam is proof that a man having his name written in the Book of Life is no guarantee that when God allows Satan to test him, he will not fall.

Note: Those who had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast are the only ones who are promised that the second death will have no power over them. And the lake of fire IS the 2nd death.

1. Adam's death, which came to all men.
2. Christ's resurrection from the dead, which comes to all whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
3. The 2nd death (the lake of fire).

(Because there will be no second sacrifice for sins and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death - and the lake of fire IS the 2nd death).

 

[5thKingdom]

So here's the conclusion I come to from this:

1. There are no souls whose names have not been written in the Book of Life going into the millennium, or getting resurrected.

- which means that "the rest of the beasts" in Daniel 7 that had their dominion taken away but whose lives were spared for a season and a time, cannot be taken to mean it occurs after the beast has been destroyed,

So tell me please
WHAT do the Beasts that have their lives prolonged represent in history

I assume you cannot come to a conclusion about those Beasts
without knowing WHAT those Beasts represent...

That would be like offering an opinion about a word
that you cannot even DEFINE

So please DEFINE the MEANING of those Beasts...
WHAT do they represent in history?


/

 

[Zao is life]

So tell me please
WHAT do the Beasts that have their lives prolonged represent in history

I assume you cannot come to a conclusion about those Beasts
without knowing WHAT those Beasts represent...

That would be like offering an opinion about a word
that you cannot even DEFINE

So please DEFINE the MEANING of those Beasts...
WHAT do they represent in history?


/

They represent what the text in Daniel 7 says they represent. Not the 'something else' that anyone may decide they represent.

 

[Zao is life]

I asked you WHAT the Beasts represent
You reply they represent WHAT the text in Daniel 7 say....

WHAT is that?

Why are you playing games?
Can you DEFINE what they represent of not?

/

I don't have to define what the beasts represent in Daniel Chapter 7. Daniel was told what they represent and he tells us what he was told.

You must read Daniel Chapter 7 - and believe what the Bible says, without inventing another meaning of the beasts. Daniel told us in Daniel 7:16-27 what he was told. They are human kingdoms led by human kings. The final one will be destroyed and then (and only then) will all the kingdoms become the Kingdom of Heaven/Christ.

 

[DavidPT]

But MAYBE I misunderstand your belief
... how many times do you think Jesus Returns?
Once in the 6th Trump and again in the 7th Trump...
is THAT your false doctrine?

Some of these things you are concluding about what I allegedly conclude is based on your view of things not mine. You are conflating things here.

If you are looking at things a particular way, and that this involves Revelation 19:20 being fulfilled before Christ returns, and that I am insisting Revelation 19:20 can't even get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first, you then take this to mean that I believe Christ returns during the 6th trump since that is where you, not me, places the fulfilling of Revelation 19:20.


Why can't you simply discern that I am making an argument against where you place Revelation 19:20, not agreeing with where you place that verse instead? My argument is this. The fact Christ can't return until the last trump, the last trump being the 7th trump, and that Revelation 19:20 can't even get fulfilled until Christ returns first, the fact that verse involves the beast being captured, then judged and sentenced, then cast into the LOF, and that it is ludicrous that the LOF can even be in view unless Christ has literally returned first, therefore, Revelation 19:20 can't fit during where you have it fitting.

And that if you then insist Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20, this proves Premil not Amil. The way you try and get around that, Revelation 19:20 is meaning before the 7th trumpet and does not require that Christ has to return first in order to fulfill that verse. Except I am not aware of one single Amil on the planet that I have encountered over the years that would even entertain your view here, let alone agree with it. Keeping in mind, meaning the Amils I have encountered over the years.

Obviously, I have not encountered every Amil on the planet, but the many that I have, which also includes Commentaries by Amils I have read before, none of them would agree with you concerning Revelation 19:20 and Daniel 7:12. Because, once again, if Daniel 7:12 is after Revelation 19:20, that contradicts Amil, not agrees with Amil, based on that Revelation 19:20 can't even get fulfilled unless Christ has returned first. Where you, just like Preterists, though you are not a Preterist, agree with Preterists that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it having to involve Christ literally returning first. Any interpretation that insists Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving Christ having to return first, has to flat out be rejected since it is ludicrous that the LOF can be in view before Christ has returned first. Talk about something not difficult, this is not difficult, no one can be cast into the LOF unless Christ has returned first.

 

[Timtofly]

No matter how you look at it, his interpretation involving Revelation 19:20 is utterly bizarre. He has that verse being fulfilled before Christ even returns first. How is it even logical that the beast and false prophet can be captured, then judged and sentenced to the LOF, a literal place, without it even involving Christ having returned first? But in his mind, no one is able to refute anything he claims is the correct interpretation of these events. LOL. Common sense alone refutes his interpretation of some of these things since it is preposterous that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving Christ having returned first.

Maybe he needs to switch his position to Preterism since he might find some agreement there, that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without Christ having to return first? Maybe he should equally think that when satan is cast into the LOF per Revelation 20:10, and that humans are cast into the LOF per Revelation 20:11-15, Christ hasn't returned yet either. The point being, obviously, the events involving Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:11-15, the LOF is in view and that Christ has returned at this point. Obviously, per Revelation 19:20 the LOF is also in view. And if Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:11-15 require that Christ has to be present to fulfill that, then so does Revelation 19:20 require that.

And if Daniel 7:12 is meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled, the only thing that can possibly explain the rest of the beasts lives being prolonged for a season and time is the thousand years and satan's little season. Which then obviously places the thousand years and satan's little season after the 2nd coming, not prior to it. In order to debunk this, one first has to undeniably prove that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving Christ having to return first. Or undeniably prove that Daniel 7:12 is not meaning after Revelation 19:20 is fulfilled. Otherwise Daniel 7:12 undeniably proves that the thousand years and satan's little season are after the 2nd coming.

A dispensational amil?