The Last Reformation

[Hillsage]

Surely if there were scriptural support the view you espouse here, there would be examples in scripture of such. My reasoning is based off the existing accounts that of all the individuals who had demons cast out of them, not one was a believer before that event, and there is no account of any believer needing "exorcism" after being converted. Not even Ananias, Sapphira, Simon, etc are said to have had demons. And they did some pretty despicable things.

I guess I'm going to have to go with my experience with Christians who went through deliverance ministry. We saw/heard things you don't fake. And, given how well we knew these people we had no reason to believe they weren't Christians.
I'm not so sure about Simon, who 'believed and was baptized'. Didn't Peter say he was in bondage of iniquity? And then, upon Peter discerning the 'spirit'ual shortcoming in Simon didn't he seek ministry from Peter for those issues. I know it doesn't necessarily say he had demons, but given his former life, I think it likely.

ACT 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

If these were issues Simon could have delivered himself from, I'd think he'd have done so. Aside from my ministry experience, below are just some verses I've accumulated which influenced me to personally believe Christians can have demons.

CAN A CHRISTIAN HAVE A DEMON?

ROM 7:17-23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1CO 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

2CO 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

EPH 4:27 Neither give place/topos to the devil.

5117 topos: a spot (gen. in space, but limited occupancy), i.e. location, opportunity; spec. a scabbard

XRef JOH 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place/topos for you.

1TI 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed/prosecho to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

4337 prosecho: (fig.)to hold the mind towards, i.e.pay attention to, be cautious about, apply oneself to, adhere to

1PE 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

REV 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Does it really matter if a demon is in you on you or just around you, if he can get you to totally "depart from the faith" 1Ti 4:1?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I guess I'm going to have to go with my experience with Christians who went through deliverance ministry. We saw/heard things you don't fake. And, given how well we knew these people we had no reason to believe they weren't Christians.
I'm not so sure about Simon, who 'believed and was baptized'. Didn't Peter say he was in bondage of iniquity? And then, upon Peter discerning the 'spirit'ual shortcoming in Simon didn't he seek ministry from Peter for those issues. I know it doesn't necessarily say he had demons, but given his former life, I think it likely.

ACT 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

If these were issues Simon could have delivered himself from, I'd think he'd have done so. Aside from my ministry experience, below are just some verses I've accumulated which influenced me to personally believe Christians can have demons.

CAN A CHRISTIAN HAVE A DEMON?

ROM 7:17-23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1CO 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

2CO 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

EPH 4:27 Neither give place/topos to the devil.

5117 topos: a spot (gen. in space, but limited occupancy), i.e. location, opportunity; spec. a scabbard

XRef JOH 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place/topos for you.

1TI 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed/prosecho to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

4337 prosecho: (fig.)to hold the mind towards, i.e.pay attention to, be cautious about, apply oneself to, adhere to

1PE 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

REV 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Does it really matter if a demon is in you on you or just around you, if he can get you to totally "depart from the faith" 1Ti 4:1?

Not a single verse you just quoted supports the idea that a believer can have an evil spirit without a lot of reading into it.

The closest would be in Romans when Paul says those who sin are under slavery to sin, so does that mean that each time we sin an evil spirit enters us? Or is it after the 5th sin?

You gave me a lot of "extra" scriptures, but not one scriptural example of a person who was a believer that was delivered from a demon.

Simon would be the closest and that word bond can also mean held captive just as Paul says those who sin are held captive to sin.

If you are trying to convince me of the righteousness of your experience, no need. I am not condemning anyone for what they do, I just don't agree with it. So save yourself some time.

 

[SkyWriting]

What I stated is that God requires particular rituals to be performed by humans in order for Him to bless us with His presence and help.

I cover that from my experiences in the last 30 years. Discover Answered Prayer! -Click Here-

 

[Hillsage]

Hi there. to eliviate your concern I will quote a sentence from one of their introductory lesson .... “we do not have the Whole truth, no One group or movement has the Whole truth .we are learning to be disciples .we need the Whole body of Christ...“- end quote.- the last reformation pioneer training school teaching staff.

Actually it wasn't much of a concern of mine, concerning the group personally. I watched a little of the videos and feel like they were encouraging what most don't...being led of the Spirit. You 'introductory lesson sentence' quote is a humble and confirming thing for them to say, in 'that regard' IMO. I'm not as sure about 'them needing the whole body', as much as 'the whole body is needing them', a group that actually believes in the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. But that's just my personal opinion.

 

[Hillsage]

Bro... Your basing that on a theory ..I don't mean this as a challenge and I don't want a reply affirming or denying.. But have you ever experienced casting a demon out when one has thrown a person to the floor thrashing around screaming..?(consider that question when your presenting doctrinal theories)
Because theory is nice ..doctrinal theory is Also nice.. But when it happens your theories go out the window.

I have had such experiences, and you are right, your 'dead theology' changes when the spiritual reality arrives.

I should add..they do Not wait untill after baptism ..they mostly drive out devil's before..but in a lot of cases ones previously unreavealed or stubborn .. Manifest after water baptism while laying on of hands for the baptism of the Holy Spirit ..the hiding demons cannot handle the presence of God and they manifest...and get driven out.[/QUOTE]
Question; Do you believe a Christian can 'forsake the grace' to pursue sin and open doors for spirit oppression/obsession/possession?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

You should read the book called "The Beautiful Side of Evil", it might shed some light for you. Also you might want to meditate on 'why would an evil spirit spread the gospel'?

ACT 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by soothsaying. 17 She followed Paul and us, crying, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation."

What, in your opinion, would Satan gain in the above situation?

It might be an issue of linguistics that was lost in translation from one language to another. The woman might have been saying something else. I read on another site that the Greek sentence is "proclaim to you a way of salvation", not "the way of salvation", which would imply that there are multiple ways. There might have been other issues that she uttered too, to make it seem like she was telling the truth, but actually be a half-truth that deceived people. It might also have been just a demon that wanted to distract Paul and his followers by constantly annoying them with her screaming, thus not allowing them to pray or focus on God.

The truth is: we don't really know. There are many possible reasons for why the demon said those things. The fact that the Bible is so mysterious is one of the major reasons for my moments of doubt.

 

[Alithis]

I have had such experiences, and you are right, your 'dead theology' changes when the spiritual reality arrives.

I should add..they do Not wait untill after baptism ..they mostly drive out devil's before..but in a lot of cases ones previously unreavealed or stubborn .. Manifest after water baptism while laying on of hands for the baptism of the Holy Spirit ..the hiding demons cannot handle the presence of God and they manifest...and get driven out.

Question; Do you believe a Christian can 'forsake the grace' to pursue sin and open doors for spirit oppression/obsession/possession?[/QUOTE]Yes ..both by theory And experience..no time for deeper reply at present

 

[Adstar]

In this post you have accused God of being a deceiver. Your accusing God of sin .

You need to read the Bible..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

There are several YouTube channels with videos showing people "allegedly" healing others of various pains on the streets and in various public locations (stores, parks etc.). One of the most notable one I've come across is this one:

After doing a little research, I found out that they do some sort of recruitment of disciples. They travel to various places and people go and meet them and they give these people "the power of the Holy Spirit" so they can heal other people too.

The whole thing is based on a movie from a few years ago called The Last Reformation, which is about this new religious movement that claims that all Christians can do miracles with the help of The Holy Spirit in Jesus' name. You can watch more about it here:

There are other channels with street healers that claim to be using the power of The Holy Spirit to heal random passerbies of their pains.

What is your opinion about this? Are all these 'healings' staged (hired actors) or are they made with the power of the enemy?

Anything is possible, but obviously, there are a lot of fakes and have been. I have always had miracles in my life, and it always plagues me to find this is exact opposite it seems for so many. Are there many of these which would make sense in video? No. Usually it is done in a "I know" and "I know you know God" sort of manner. Granted, as finite beings in the finite world, expressions of the ruling world which is not finite are infinite in possibility. And, being finite beings in a finite world, it is very easy for these expressions to be missed or swallowed up, because of the difficulty of the dichotomy of it.

For instance, with the bread and the loaves. Despite that miracle, everyone did leave but the twelve. And even they immediately afterwards had problems understanding that Jesus did not mean literal bread. They were worried about literal bread, which is normally in finite supply, when Jesus was trying to talk about the real bread which comes from Heaven.

Even the most powerful and explicit miracle I have ever seen, would not do well in video. Which was of a man transfiguring into "one like a son of man". Because video could not capture the power and intensity of his being. And people would not be able to trust it, because video can so easily be faked. [I can certainly think of miracles, however, which could be worked through video. And certainly there are many different types of video, different contexts.]

For me, when I get excited is when I meet others who have had real miracles. But, I also get likewise excited when I meet others who simply can talk coherently and meaningfully on the teachings of Jesus, and spiritual matters, in general. Which can be as simple as finding some especially rewarding insights, posts, reactions.

Heaven its' self is intrinsically miraculous, as is the faith. Bizarrely so, as it seems so simple, and on the core level, is.

There is most certainly a "down the rabbit hole" quality to it.

As for working miracles, however, there is certainly not ever - for anyone - the experience of "I did this", like Professor X or Jean Grey might have in fiction. Not from what I have ever found. Rather, it is God does it, and, at closest to fiction, a return from prayer. But even then, it is "God did it" element to it, even if there is also an "God gave this to me" element. (As Jesus said, stays with us, as well, whatever we see the Father do, we also do. To paraphrase, correctly, in context.)

 

[Adstar]

I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around any of the things you said. What would Satan have to gain by healing people if those people after they are healed thank God for the miracle? If Satan can heal people while uttering "in Jesus' name", then there is literally no way of discerning miracles that come from God from the miracles that come from Satan. Could Satan, who is the prince of lies, go around and instruct people to believe in Jesus and God? Why would a loving and just God allow people to be deceived if He says that He wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)? And no, I can't imagine how a just and loving God could be wrathful against people who want to draw near to Him, but were tricked by Satan into believing something else.

satan does not want people to accept the true Message of God.. Satan wants people to accept a false message and think it is from God.. If a person believes God exists but has rejected the true message of God and has got into some kind of false religion then satan wants then to remain in that false religion.. So a person who has been healed or see some other kind of supernatural wonder being performed by a fellow member of their false religion then that will convince them without a doubt that they are in the true religion of God.. Thus by performing the lying signs satan has ensured that the decieved will remain stedfast to the deception for life..

Yes there is a way to know if it comes from satan or if it comes from God.. That is by listening to the preaching / doctrines that the performer of those signs believes in and espouses.. If they do not align with the Bibles Gospel message then you can know that the signs are not from God..

These people where not tricked into rejecting the Gospel.. these people have rejected the Gospel by their own free will decision, but since they still believe that God exists they lock onto one of the false versions of Christianity out there that reject the essential message of the Gospel and replace it with twisted doctrines.. God sends them strong delusion just as he sent Pharaoh strong delusions at the time of the exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt.. It is to fulfill his purpose,, it is a part of His judgement upon them..

He is wrathful against people who do not want to draw near to Him.. They want to fashion their own personal Jesus that is an idol built in their own image of what they want Jesus to stand for..

 

[Alithis]

You need to read the Bible..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The scripture does indeed say that .
So .
Now.. Your saying that people who are -believing the wordsJesus said
-obeying the words Jesus said
Are being sent a great delusion by God..and because of that dillusion they repent of sin..get baptised in water..recieve the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues glorifying God.then obey the Lord JESUS and Go out ,heal the sick preach the Gospel,drive out demons ,baptize in Jesus name and teach more to do the same..?

Do you stop to think how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Yes there is a way to know if it comes from satan or if it comes from God.. That is by listening to the preaching / doctrines that the performer of those signs believes in and espouses.. If they do not align with the Bibles Gospel message then you can know that the signs are not from God..

There's just one problem with that: the Bible is full of contradictory verses that can be used to support the claims of all the Christian denominations out there.

101 Contradictions in the Bible.

If these "false preachers" preached a doctrine that was different from the Bible, you can be sure that they wouldn't be able to attract and convert so many believers because they would be simply confronted with the statement: "that's not mentioned in the Bible". However, everything that they do state is based on Biblical verses -- Biblical verses that are contradicted by other Biblical verses from the same Bible.

From all I see around lately, I've come to the conclusion that God is just a big prankster and wants to mess with all of us.

 

[Hillsage]

Not a single verse you just quoted supports the idea that a believer can have an evil spirit without a lot of reading into it.

I agree, they don't. But for me the implications made by them, along with personal experience do seem to provide the proof that is sufficient enough for me. But I admit it isn't 'black and white' in print. As for your position I'd like to see one verse saying Christians can't be demonized too. And 'demonized' is really the word I'd use instead of 'possession'. Possession was a bad translation provided by the KJV which has stuck in the Christian vocabulary and providing horror implications.

KJV ACT 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us,

Most translations do a better job of revealing it as the other way around. We 'have them' and 'they don't possess us'.

YLT ACT 16:16 And it came to pass in our going on to prayer, a certain maid, having a spirit of Python,

The closest would be in Romans when Paul says those who sin are under slavery to sin, so does that mean that each time we sin an evil spirit enters us? Or is it after the 5th sin?
You gave me a lot of "extra" scriptures, but not one scriptural example of a person who was a believer that was delivered from a demon.

LIke I ended my last post;
Does it really matter if a demon is in you on you or just around you, if he can get you to totally "depart from the faith" 1Ti 4:1?

 

[Hillsage]

From all I see around lately, I've come to the conclusion that God is just a big prankster and wants to mess with all of us.

I find your testimony to be a bit sad concerning the motives and actions of God. When I was faced with similar questions, I went to God and asked why? His response was I want my children to grow up in spiritual maturity and discernment. The conclusion I came to, based upon that 'word' was; "We are in a spiritual battle...period." If we don't grow in the spiritual realm we will never achieve 'that' to which we have been 'called' to achieve. That 'calling' being "the image of the stature of the fullness of Christ". And personally I can't begin to imagine the 'pattern Son' of my life, as ever thinking that God was, 'a prankster' or someone who is 'just messing with all of us'.

But I appreciate your honesty. We all have 'feelings' and everyone is entitled to 'their feelings', because they are 'real' to each of us in the reality that we live in.

I do wonder though, if you'd be willing to share, just what is your 'Christian testimony' and how long have you been in the church you are in? Is it the only church experience you've known?

 

[Alithis]

I find your testimony to be a bit sad concerning the motives and actions of God. When I was faced with similar questions, I went to God and asked why? His response was I want my children to grow up in spiritual maturity and discernment. The conclusion I came to, based upon that 'word' was; "We are in a spiritual battle...period." If we don't grow in the spiritual realm we will never achieve 'that' to which we have been 'called' to achieve. That 'calling' being "the image of the stature of the fullness of Christ". And personally I can't begin to imagine the 'pattern Son' of my life, as ever thinking that God was, 'a prankster' or someone who is 'just messing with all of us'.

But I appreciate your honesty. We all have 'feelings' and everyone is entitled to 'their feelings', because they are 'real' to each of us in the reality that we live in.

I do wonder though, if you'd be willing to share, just what is your 'Christian testimony' and how long have you been in the church you are in? Is it the only church experience you've known?

Also @ByTheSpirit .Tell me..just in the interest of this litle sub topic .
Define an unbeliever from a believer..
At what time did anyone who is an unbeliever repent to God in order to have the demon cast out?
People came to Jesus to be healed because they believed..and he cast spirits out of them .even the legion guy..came Out to him ...
Demons don't get cast out of unrepentant unbelievers.
They get cast out if Believers..

I have been a believer for 40+ years..but I used a to have unrepentant sin in my life. When God brought me to true repentance..I also Got delivered...it was a traumatic experience that I will not easily forget..
I testify in the name of Jesus..believers can and do get devil's ..through sin through disobedience through following false doctrines.through watching demonic inspired movies(which is 99.9%)
Through watching tv shows..opening and softening thier hearts to wink at sin ..etc.
.

 

[Adstar]

The scripture does indeed say that .
So .
Now.. Your saying that people who are -believing the wordsJesus said
-obeying the words Jesus said
Are being sent a great delusion by God..

No i never said any such thing.. Your simply misrepresenting my posts and pasting false conclusions over me.. It pains me to even have to respond to your false accusations.. I made it clear that those indwelled by the Holy Spirit who have accepted the Gospel Way of salvation will be guarded from deception and will not be sent strong delusion.. Why because they have accepted the Love of the truth that is going to save them and they have had no pleasure in unrighteousness..

 

[Adstar]

There's just one problem with that: the Bible is full of contradictory verses that can be used to support the claims of all the Christian denominations out there.

101 Contradictions in the Bible.

If these "false preachers" preached a doctrine that was different from the Bible, you can be sure that they wouldn't be able to attract and convert so many believers because they would be simply confronted with the statement: "that's not mentioned in the Bible". However, everything that they do state is based on Biblical verses -- Biblical verses that are contradicted by other Biblical verses from the same Bible.

From all I see around lately, I've come to the conclusion that God is just a big prankster and wants to mess with all of us.

The supposed contradictions are not contradictions.. They are simply things that men with limited reasoning and understanding cannot understand and thus they declare them to be contradictions because they are unable to explain them...

People are attracted to false preachers because they agree and like the false doctrines the false preacher is pedaling.. Their is little to no effort needed in telling lies if the people you are telling lies to yearn to be lied to.. Lets face it,, the majority of the religious in most religions have never bothered to even read their scriptures,, Most of them simply trust that the religious professionals know what they are talking about and would not lead them falsely... Of course time and time again we see examples of false preachers leading people into all kinds of wacky doctrines..

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Also @ByTheSpirit .Tell me..just in the interest of this litle sub topic .
Define an unbeliever from a believer..
At what time did anyone who is an unbeliever repent to God in order to have the demon cast out?
People came to Jesus to be healed because they believed..and he cast spirits out of them .even the legion guy..came Out to him ...
Demons don't get cast out of unrepentant unbelievers.
They get cast out if Believers..

I have been a believer for 40+ years..but I used a to have unrepentant sin in my life. When God brought me to true repentance..I also Got delivered...it was a traumatic experience that I will not easily forget..
I testify in the name of Jesus..believers can and do get devil's ..through sin through disobedience through following false doctrines.through watching demonic inspired movies(which is 99.9%)
Through watching tv shows..opening and softening thier hearts to wink at sin ..etc.
.

You think believers get devil through tv shows? That's a bit extreme don't ya think? Do you think they get them through sports too?

Anyways, I have seen you tell people that if they have unrepentant sin they cannot be a believer, yet you say you were a believer for 40+ years with unrepentant sin, so which is it?

Either you were an unbeliever because you had unrepentant sin, or you were a believer with sin that just needed be repented of.

 

[Alithis]

You think believers get devil through tv shows? That's a bit extreme don't ya think? Do you think they get them through sports too?

Anyways, I have seen you tell people that if they have unrepentant sin they cannot be a believer, yet you say you were a believer for 40+ years with unrepentant sin, so which is it?

Either you were an unbeliever because you had unrepentant sin, or you were a believer with sin that just needed be repented of.

When ever one thing is allowed to dominate the mind over the spirit of God..it becomes the sin of idolatry .any sinful action is the will of the spirit of this world who works in disobedient children .since scriptures states the spirit of this world works in the children of disobedience ... Then when we are being consistently disobedient we are SERVING THE SPIRIT OF THIS WORLD when we do the will of the flesh. Not God.

And whom we serve becomes our master.
I assure you believers have devil's.
..I will goad it.
When you get all defensive and annoyed and agitated when I tell you that avidly following a sportdcteam is unrightously idolizing and giving praise due to God to men instead..

Do you think it's the Holy spirit getting annoyed for saying we should give praise to God alone like he says “you are worthy of ALL praise“..not you are worthy to share praise.?

I assure you it's not the Holy Spirit annoyed about that ..it's the flesh and another spirit.

 

[Alithis]

You think believers get devil through tv shows? That's a bit extreme don't ya think? Do you think they get them through sports too?

Anyways, I have seen you tell people that if they have unrepentant sin they cannot be a believer, yet you say you were a believer for 40+ years with unrepentant sin, so which is it?

Either you were an unbeliever because you had unrepentant sin, or you were a believer with sin that just needed be repented of.

As to your other question .the devil's themselves believe...

If I did not repent..I would perish..it does not matter how long I was a believer..
Remember..Jesus says to those who work iniquity..depart from me.