The Known Facts

[JohnR7]

Um, evolution is a fact and theory because that's the way science works. If christianity is a fact, then faith is not needed. The two are mutually exclusive.

There are lots of facts in christianity. It is a fact that there are different denominations. By faith a person may believe one denomination is better than another denomination.

 

[Silent Bob]

First of all, it is a known fact that God created the universe that we live in.

As it has been pointed to you before this is not a fact. It is an article of faith. The battle rages on in the apologetics forum but also in the heart and mind of every human being.

There is no reason to duplicate their efforts here on this board.

Although I agree, there is also no reason to assume that every atheist and agnostic has to accept the existence of God as a fact for this board because there is another board to discuss it.

Second of all, it is a known fact that the Bible is inspired by God and 100% relyable and dependable.

Again this is your faith being projected as a fact. Do not be fooled by the URL this forum is mainly Christian but not everyone in here is a Christian. BTW there is a board where these articles of faith are considered facts so you probably want to go to OT and post this again.

This forum then has been set up to open up a dialoge between science and the Bible.

Although I would like to see it like this I would say this board is to discuss Creationism and evolution. Dialogue between science and Bible does happen but it is not the main focus, again the OT board is a much better place since it offers a common platform for dialogue.

It is no secret that this is a christian forum and the hope of the christians through this dialoge is to convert people to christianity.

Hehe speak for yourself I don't care to convert anyone. I am just here to pass my time and indulge in discussion. I don't think that an internet site is the best venue to evangelize, in fact it is probably the second worst after the phone.

 

[z3ro]

There are lots of facts in christianity. It is a fact that there are different denominations. By faith a person may believe one denomination is better than another denomination.

You missed the point; you don't have faith there are different denominations, that is a fact. You have faith god exists, because that is not a fact.

 

[Silent Bob]

You have faith god exists, because that is not a fact.

Correction. It is not a known fact or a universally accepted one. It could be a fact but all of the sceptics could also be right.

 

[z3ro]

It could be a fact but all of the sceptics could also be right.

I'm just a little confused; how could it both be a fact and the sceptics be right?

 

[MewtwoX]

Isn't saying that people have to accept the idea of God creating the universe a matter for the General Apologetics board as well?

Or perhaps we have to realize that aspects of debating Evolution and Creationism will bring in questions about deities?

The fact is that this board is to discuss Evolution and Creation. This means discussions of Young Earth Creationism, Old Earth Creationism, Gap Theory, Evolution Creationism, Theistic Evolution and Atheistic Evolution.

Tell me how your facts fit in with all of these subdivisions and I'll accept them as fact. However, I doubt your "facts" will fit with Atheistic Evolution...

You either accept some debate about God (what should be in General Apologetics), or we make this board completely agnostic on the issue of the existence of deities and pretty much isolate any discussion of Creationism and specific philosophies of Evolution.

 

[Elduran]

Science can neither prove or disprove God. They can offer no evidence one way or the other. Religion asks: "WHY?" Science asks: "HOW?"

Right, so there's no way to test for or observe god, so the existance of him/her is not a fact, it's an opinion.

 

[JohnR7]

As it has been pointed to you before this is not a fact. It is an article of faith. The battle rages on in the apologetics forum but also in the heart and mind of every human being.

It is NOT a scientific debate or discussion. Science can not and does not say if God exists or not. Let us again look at what talk origin has to say about it

First let me repeat that the underlying theme of the first book of Genesis can't be scientifically proven or disproven. No test has ever been found that can tell the difference between a universe created by God, and one that appeared without Him. Only certain interpretations of Genesis can be disproven.http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html

 

[JohnR7]

Right, so there's no way to test for or observe god, so the existance of him/her is not a fact, it's an opinion.

Science has nothing to say one way or the other. Present whatever scientific evidence you have to show us that the God of the Bible does not exist. That is why this is a science board and not a apologetics or philosophy board.

 

[MewtwoX]

Science has nothing to say one way or the other. Present whatever scientific evidence you have to show us that the God of the Bible does not exist. That is why this is a science board and not a apologetics or philosophy board.

But, this is a board that eventually brings in questions of God, via Creationism.

With questions of God come dealings with Theistic and Atheistic nature.

To ask people to accept Apologetic truthes on a board for a supposedly "Science only" purpose is hypocritical.

 

[Willtor]

John, do you really expect the natural sciences to talk about God (for or against)? Why are any of these "facts" relevant to the Crevo forum? As has been pointed out, if you'd like to join us in Origins Theology, you're more than welcome.

 

[JohnR7]

To ask people to accept Apologetic truthes on a board for a supposedly "Science only" purpose is hypocritical.

All I am asking for is scientific evidence that would show us that the God of the Bible does not exist. That is why this is a science board and not a apologetics board.

 

[MewtwoX]

All I am asking for is scientific evidence that would show us that the God of the Bible does not exist. That is why this is a science board and not a apologetics board.

Science cannot disprove such an entity, but this does not follow that we must accept that God exists and that he created the world.

 

[JohnR7]

Right, so there's no way to test for or observe god, so the existance of him/her is not a fact, it's an opinion.

God is a fact only when faith is a part of the equation. If you use faith then God becomes a fact. He can be tested, observed and verified if you use faith.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 

[MewtwoX]

God is a fact only when faith is a part of the equation. If you use faith then God becomes a fact. He can be tested, observed and verified if you use faith.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

However, given this situation it can never be a fact because you must have faith first.

Because you take the conclusion on assumption, the alleged fact will always be under suspicion of confimation bias.

Those who use faith and reason must (and probably will) recognize this.

 

[JohnR7]

Science cannot disprove such an entity, but this does not follow that we must accept that God exists and that he created the world.

You can only verify God though faith. If you do not use faith, then you can not verify God. If you use faith, then you will get valid results that verify God's existance. People who use faith have all the evidence that they will ever want or need. People that do not use faith will end up with nothing.

You can have two identical studies. One with and one without faith. If you use faith you will be able to get results. If you do not use faith, then you will not be able to get results. The outcome or the results you get will be based on the faith that goes into the study.

 

[JohnR7]

However, given this situation it can never be a fact because you must have faith first.

It is a fact that you can not run an engine without oil and it is a fact that without faith you can not please God. But when you use faith, then you will get positive results every time. With faith a scientific study can be repeated, it can be verified, God can be observed, you can get positive results.

 

[JohnR7]

Because you take the conclusion on assumption, the alleged fact will always be under suspicion of confimation bias.

Faith gets results 100% of the time. Science in some cases can only get results 1% of the time. You have to get at least 1% results for something to be considered valid science, at least when the government is concerned.

 

[MewtwoX]

It is a fact that you can not run an engine without oil and it is a fact that without faith you can not please God. But when you use faith, then you will get positive results every time. With faith a scientific study can be repeated, it can be verified, God can be observed, you can get positive results.

Do you? Or do you find similar events and attribute them to God each time?

Again, taking the conclusion on assumption brings the question of confirmation bias.

Always.

That's one of the reasons why using faith in science is a no-no.

 

[z3ro]

He can be tested, observed and verified if you use faith.

How, exactly, would one do that?