The Known Facts

JohnR7

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ImmortalTechnique said:
faith never gets results any of the time.

Even human faith and positive thinking has been shown to get good results. How much more can you get results from God's divine faith.

We have evidence we have testimony from every christian that faith does get results. They would not even be a christian if they did not believe in the power of the Faith of God.

Your lack of ability to get results does not impress anyone. People are impressed when you know how to get results. Esp in the time of need.
 
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JohnR7

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MewtwoX said:
However, given this situation it can never be a fact because you must have faith first.

What makes it a fact is that the formula works 100% of the time. It only has to work 1% of the time, in order for science to consider it to be a fact. This is a 99% margin of safety. A 1% effective rate is enough to get a drug approved by the government.
 
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JGG

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Just for the record, I seriously question your first two premises to be in any way factual, and I can conclude that I should also question any conclusion you draw from them.

JohnR7 said:
First of all, it is a known fact that God created the universe that we live in.

JohnR7 said:
Second of all, it is a known fact that the Bible is inspired by God and 100% relyable and dependable.

How is something which is 100% reliable open to interpretation? If it can be interpreted in more than one way, it is far less than 100% reliable. Misinterpret it and its not reliable.

Just wanted that for the record, but I'm sure its been pointed out.

JohnR7 said:
Even human faith and positive thinking has been shown to get good results. How much more can you get results from God's divine faith.

What kind of results?

JohnR7 said:
We have evidence we have testimony from every christian that faith does get results. They would not even be a christian if they did not believe in the power of the Faith of God.

Firstly, what kind of results? Secondly, testimony from a highly biased group of people does not constitue much in the way of evidence. Thirdly, I can make the same claim about Buddhism, and thus refute your Christian testimony.

JohnR7 said:
Your lack of ability to get results does not impress anyone. People are impressed when you know how to get results. Esp in the time of need.

What kind of results?
 
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MewtwoX

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JohnR7 said:
What makes it a fact is that the formula works 100% of the time. It only has to work 1% of the time, in order for science to consider it to be a fact. This is a 99% margin of safety.

However your judgement of the system working is biased.

That's the problem with Confirmation Bias. You assume that God exists and then look for proof and start accepting things that you wouldn't have accepted without taking the conclusion on faith first.

You don't fully investigate other options and look critically at the possibilities with assumptions accepted as truth.
 
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JohnR7

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MewtwoX said:
You assume that God exists

I did not assume anything. I had tried a lot of different things that did not work. Science had nothing to offer me. The only thing I knew was that I really had nothing to lose. I have tested God the way any scientist would test something. I look at the results I get. If you do not know how to get results, that is to bad. We know how to get good results.
 
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JGG

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JohnR7 said:
I have tested God the way any scientist would test something. I look at the results I get. If you do not know how to get results, that is to bad. We know how to get good results.

What kind of results? (I need a broken record emoticon)

(if you don't mind answering in this order)
What was your hypothesis?
How did you test it empirically?
How did you set control conditions?
What kind of design did you use?
How did you operationalize and record results?
What were the results?
 
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JohnR7

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MewtwoX said:
You don't fully investigate other options and look critically at the possibilities with assumptions accepted as truth.

What other options? When your at deaths door or if you have already passed through that door, and there is nothing that science has to offer you. Then your only hope is God and what He has to offer.

If you have other options, then play your other options. When you have nothing left and God is the only hope that is left, then try God. If you want to try man, then try man first. Get every last little time bit of help that man and science has to offer. Then when you realize that it is not enough, then you are in a perfect place to try God, because He is the only show in town. You have no other hope at that point in time.
 
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JohnR7

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JGG said:
What kind of results? (I need a broken record emoticon)

(if you don't mind answering in this order)
What was your hypothesis?
How did you test it empirically?
How did you set control conditions?
What kind of design did you use?
How did you operationalize and record results?
What were the results?

I came to God and I got "saved" about 25 years ago when I was going though a divorce and I found myself a single parent. I was in a lot of pain. Nothing I did would cause that pain to go away. Nothing that the doctors or science had to offer me, would cause that pain to go away. Then someone suggested that I try the God of the Bible. I had tried every other book I could find to read, so it was no big deal to me to give it a try.

For me the Bible works and God is real. He has answers to every question and the solution to every problem. Now after 25 years I just trust God that whatever happens to me in my life He will work it all out for the best. The Bible is FILLED with promises and with God those Promises are true.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

There are many, many, many promises in the word of God for us. They are like hidden treasure that are there for whoever wants to look for them.
 
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JGG

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JohnR7 said:
I came to God and I got "saved" about 25 years ago when I was going though a divorce and I found myself a single parent. I was in a lot of pain. Nothing I did would cause that pain to go away. Nothing that the doctors or science had to offer me, would cause that pain to go away. Then someone suggested that I try the God of the Bible. I had tried every other book I could find to read, so it was no big deal to me to give it a try.

For me the Bible works and God is real. He has answers to every question and the solution to every problem. Now after 25 years I just trust God that whatever happens to me in my life He will work it all out for the best. The Bible is FILLED with promises and with God those Promises are true.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

There are many, many, many promises in the word of God for us. They are like hidden treasure that are there for whoever wants to look for them.

Yeah but this is hardly how scientists test something.

JohnR7 said:
I have tested God the way any scientist would test something.

Where was the empirical evidence? The hypothesis? The controlled conditions?
 
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JohnR7

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JGG said:
How is something which is 100% reliable open to interpretation?

It is not open to private interpretation. The Holy Spirit of God leads us into all truth. When people try to understand the Bible without God's help, then they run into various interpretations.

2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
 
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JGG

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JohnR7 said:
It is not open to private interpretation. The Holy Spirit of God leads us into all truth. When people try to understand the Bible without God's help, then they run into various interpretations.

But don't you interpret the bible differently than YEC's, and other Hovindites?
 
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JohnR7

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JGG said:
Yeah but this is hardly how scientists test something.

I already told you, science had nothing to offer me. No one had any help for me, no one had anything to offer me. Except for the Christians, they said to try God. I had nothing to lose and everything to gain.
 
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JohnR7

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JGG said:
But don't you interpret the bible differently than YEC's, and other Hovindites?

No man interprets the Bible for me. I am lead by God in my understanding of the Bible. I am interested in how God is working in the lives of others. I enjoy to hear first hand testimony. But I do not have much use for doctrine that is passed from person to person in a round robin sort of fashion. Irwin allows me to stay here, but I have been thrown out of a lot of churchs because I will not accept their brand of dogma. Some of them if they do not throw you out, then they will put a gag order on you.
 
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JGG

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JohnR7 said:
I already told you, science had nothing to offer me. No one had any help for me, no one had anything to offer me. Except for the Christians, they said to try God. I had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Fair enough. But say we had a Christian in the same situation who felt he was not getting results from Christianity, and turns to Hinduism for help. If he gets "results" does it not hold that Hinduism must be true? How can they both be true?
 
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JGG

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JohnR7 said:
No man interprets the Bible for me. I am lead by God in my understanding of the Bible. I am interested in how God is working in the lives of others. I enjoy to hear first hand testimony. But I do not have much use for doctrine that is passed from person to person in a round robin sort of fashion. Irwin allows me to stay here, but I have been thrown out of a lot of churchs because I will not accept their brand of dogma. Some of them if they do not throw you out, then they will put a gag order on you.

Again, fair enough. But are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit is interpreting the bible for you, but not for these other Christians?
 
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JohnR7

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JGG said:
Again, fair enough. But are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit is interpreting the bible for you, but not for these other Christians?

I believe in a two fold attonement. God is reconciling us with Himself and He is reconciling us with each other. Faith and love work together. You can not have love without faith and you can not have faith without love.

Christians are united by the love of God, it is not always their doctrine that will cause them to be united.

John 13:35
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
 
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JohnR7

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JGG said:
Fair enough. But say we had a Christian in the same situation who felt he was not getting results from Christianity, and turns to Hinduism for help.

If it works for them, only they can make that determination. I tried it and it did not work for me.
Our job as Christians is to help others to receive the results they are looking for.
 
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