Exactly! In essence making a 3rd Temple with animal sacrifices would be completely without purpose. BUT such an event would be like Aaron's foolish sons in Leviticus 10 which killed two of them.
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The "holy place" Abomination of Desolation
- Thread starter CassiusCritzer
- Start date
Leviticus 10
The Death of Nadab and Abihu
1Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. 2So fire came out from the presence of theLord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. 3Moses then said to Aaron, “This is what the Lord spoke of when he said:
“ ‘Among those who approach me
I will be proved holy;
in the sight of all the people
I will be honored.’ ”
Aaron remained silent.
4Moses summoned Mishael and Elzaphan, sons of Aaron’s uncle Uzziel, and said to them, “Come here; carry your cousins outside the camp, away from the front of the sanctuary.” 5So they came and carried them, still in their tunics, outside the camp, as Moses ordered.
6Then Moses said to Aaron and his sons Eleazar and Ithamar, “Do not let your hair become unkempta and do not tear your clothes, or you will die and the Lord will be angry with the whole community. But your relatives, all the Israelites, may mourn for those the Lord has destroyed by fire. 7Do not leave the entrance to the tent of meeting or you will die, because the Lord’s anointing oil is on you.” So they did as Moses said.
The Death of Nadab and Abihu
1Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. 2So fire came out from the presence of theLord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. 3Moses then said to Aaron, “This is what the Lord spoke of when he said:
“ ‘Among those who approach me
I will be proved holy;
in the sight of all the people
I will be honored.’ ”
Aaron remained silent.
4Moses summoned Mishael and Elzaphan, sons of Aaron’s uncle Uzziel, and said to them, “Come here; carry your cousins outside the camp, away from the front of the sanctuary.” 5So they came and carried them, still in their tunics, outside the camp, as Moses ordered.
6Then Moses said to Aaron and his sons Eleazar and Ithamar, “Do not let your hair become unkempta and do not tear your clothes, or you will die and the Lord will be angry with the whole community. But your relatives, all the Israelites, may mourn for those the Lord has destroyed by fire. 7Do not leave the entrance to the tent of meeting or you will die, because the Lord’s anointing oil is on you.” So they did as Moses said.
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Enlightening historical experience.
Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII
Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and opressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.
Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.
The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.
This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.
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I am totally green as this is my first day here. I really like the forums by the way. How do I like a post? I just now figured how to quote.
As an evangelical Christian, there is such a lack of holiness in our services due to concern about idolatry. So that makes it difficult to honestly fathom the entirety of Leviticus 10, yet I am sure an Eastern Orthodox person would immediately grasp the lesson.
We think of YHWH in very familiar ways in my tradition due to personal relationships, when maybe we should awestruck by the LORD of ALL CREATION. Thus what Aaron's sons did was terrible but understandable as they meant great respect.
But to rebuild the Temple as included above in JGR's Sozomen's reading or in a 3rd Jerusalem Temple might completely ANNIHILATE the workers in flames. We have lost that fear of GOD...invoking sheer terror at incurring GOD's wrath. Maybe we need that back to be better servants?
As an evangelical Christian, there is such a lack of holiness in our services due to concern about idolatry. So that makes it difficult to honestly fathom the entirety of Leviticus 10, yet I am sure an Eastern Orthodox person would immediately grasp the lesson.
We think of YHWH in very familiar ways in my tradition due to personal relationships, when maybe we should awestruck by the LORD of ALL CREATION. Thus what Aaron's sons did was terrible but understandable as they meant great respect.
But to rebuild the Temple as included above in JGR's Sozomen's reading or in a 3rd Jerusalem Temple might completely ANNIHILATE the workers in flames. We have lost that fear of GOD...invoking sheer terror at incurring GOD's wrath. Maybe we need that back to be better servants?
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You should have a row of small icons beneath each post. Just click the "thumb up".
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In the Roman Catholic tradition there are seven kinds of prayer, I think with the first being Adoration. That is when you bask in the GLORY of God, literally struck dumb at GOD's MAJESTY and are silent as you ponder the magnitude of greatness of GOD. That is not common in the evangelical tradition as most prayers are selfish begging or pleading(petitions) and trying to tell God what to do. Then intercession for others can be almost as bad. Adoration most often comes when singing and you feel elevated and in another dimension or realm like the lesson about the Seraphim and woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips. Isaiah 6
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Nope. No thumbs on my Android tablet.
To rebuild the Temple a 3rd time without authorization would be so AUDACIOUS that it is insane. I don't think people realize that as it is like striking the Messiah in the face after all the suffering he went through. In other words it is so IMPUDENT that it is shamelessly disrespectful.
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If you don't already have an account, you need to create one. After that, log in and the additional amenities should be there.
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I have a friend who asked me the same question, once; how is it that the abomination of desolation can defile something which isn't holy. I'll review some things so we can get ourselves into a better position to understand this:
When the temple was destroyed in 70AD, God was cutting the Jews off not only from their land but also their religion. The genealogies were lost so no one knows who is who any longer.
To understand what Matthew is saying we to see what Daniel says, since Jesus is drawing from Daniels prophecy:
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate
In the middle of the tribulation the Antichrist is going to cause the sacrifices to cease. Without a 3rd temple, how would this make any sense? We see from scripture that at this time the Jews are sacrificing and that there is a holy place; isn't that enough information to verify there will be a temple? We have to face the facts about what the text is saying first. We don't understand how the Antichrist could defile a holy place that isn't holy, but we have to admit the text leads us to conclude there will be a 3rd temple with a so-called holy place. How that works I don't know.
I know there is no other way to be saved except through Jesus Christ. I also don't believe the Jews are going to avail anything with God by building another temple because I think they are doing it without His instruction or permission. If anything it will make Him angry. They are just going forward assuming that God is still onboard.
To conclude, I believe that we have to acknowledge there is a third temple before we try to unravel the rest of it. We believe a third temple may logically contradict what we know, but our ignorance can't change what scripture says anyhow.
Here is a very interesting link regarding the Messiah and the destruction of the 2nd temple:
Four Startling Facts About the Identity of the Messiah - Jews for Jesus
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There is one, and only one, specifically identified individual in Daniel 9:24-27.
It is Messiah the Prince.
Daniel 9:27 refers three times to "he".
Grammatically and syntactically, the three "he's" in verse 27 can only have as an antecedent the only specifically identified individual in the passage.
It is Messiah the Prince.
Thus it is Christ, Messiah the Prince, who is the sole and exclusive focus and subject of the passage including Daniel 9:27.
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You missed somebody:
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.
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As there cannot be a holy place in a 3rd Temple no matter what, then the Abomination of Desolation does NOT happen in the 3rd Temple. It is very likely it happens elsewhere. Meanwhile it's possible the Jews build a 3rd Temple and these are the daily sacrifices that get interrupted by the Antichrist.
As a devout Christian, a 3rd Temple is a severe sacrilege as it is an act of defiance against YHWH as it insults what Jesus accomplished.
But Christians are told by Jesus to watch for the holy place being desecrated by an Abomination. That word is analogous to a rotten smelling corruption like a piece of rotten meat in which vermin infest. That is a clear sign whereas every other sign is vague. Therefore if we can puzzle out that sign, then it creates an epiphany, an aha moment, so that we know the Rapture is near.
The sun being darkened and a blood moon stand between the event and the Rapture.
Eagles don't eat carrion. Vultures eat carrion. Eagles has a positive connotation. Vultures has a negative connotation. Until we know which is correct, then the line is cryptic. An eagle would eat a freshly killed creature and could mean the Body of Christ. A vulture eats carrion is rotting meat and hence fits the Abomination better.
It's late and even old people sleep some. 'Night y'all.
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Messiah is identified as a prince, it also mentions another prince, and the people thereof who destroyed the temple.
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Messiah is the only individual specifically identified as a prince. There is no prince mentioned who is said to be someone other than Messiah.
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Your criteria of "specifically identified individuals" does not preclude the prince of the people who destroyed the temple as being a different prince than Messiah. It also fits the context and natural reading of the verse. We can agree to disagree, God bless
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There are two perspectives regarding the identity of the people of the prince Messiah, both scripturally and historically applicable and verifiable:
1. The pagan Roman armies under Titus, which were God's instruments of judgment and destruction. In similar fashion elsewhere, e.g. Jeremiah 43:10-13, God described the pagan Nebuchadnezzar, whom He chose as His instrument of judgment and destruction, as being "My servant." That would of course also include the armies under his control.
If the pagan Nebuchadnezzar and his armies could be characterized as "God's servant", then the pagan Roman armies under Titus could legitimately be characterized as "the people of the prince" Messiah.
2. The Jews themselves, whom Josephus documents as being responsible for an enormity of the suffering that occurred: "I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world." Contemporary Jews concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted.
Thanks, God bless you as well.
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Take a look at this, if you want to walk on the road to Emmaus with the risen Savior.
(Luke 24:25-27)
He said the whole Old Testament is about Him.
It will be a tremendous aid to your study of eschatology and may help you abandon some of the things you have heard, which came from men.
Since first coming here, I have had to change what I once believed in order to get my understanding to match what is written in the Bible.
The New Covenant: Bob George
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