The "holy place" Abomination of Desolation

[CassiusCritzer]

Something has been on my thoughts for the last few years. I am a devout evangelical Christian and I have known Jesus practically my whole life. My earliest memories are praying to Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I have never ever turned away like others. I felt and feel an overwhelming love for Jesus and never doubted. Because of this I greatly enjoy studying the Bible.

Matthew 24 discusses a timeline of what must happen before the Abomination of Desolation. I do not want to argue because people have very firm ideas. What I pray is we can have an enlightened discussion can take place where led by the Holy Spirit, new ideas that are Biblicaly correct and supported by Scriptures will lead us into Truth.

I'm just an old man. I make no claims about being smarter than anyone else nor being more faithful. I have no pride about such things. And I want to discuss this amiably and with other devout Christians not with scoffers and atheists.

What did Jesus mean by the hagia? He did not specifically say Temple. It is presumed that the desecration will occur when the Antichrist ( Beast) initiates Beast worship in the holy place and or worshiping an animated graven image of the Beast. Then he institutes the mark of the Beast.

Now if we look at the Temple of Solomon, within it was a Veiled off area, and in the 1st Temple, the Ark of the Covenant was within and within that was the Tablets of the Ten Commandements. Animal sacrifices were made since the Presence of YHWH was within. At Yom Kippur, the high priest would go inside with blood to atone for the 12 Tribes of Israel and speak aloud the Name of God (YHWH) and offer up incense as a prayer.

When Jesus died on the cross, and said "It is finished" then the Veil was torn and by theology the Presence of YHWH left. According to tradition, this veil was four inches thick so it is not an accident.

In Hebrews 9 -10, Jesus has created a new covenant and is the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God while simultaneously the great high priest. And his body is the passage through the veil of the Most Holy Place.

Now after the Babylonian captivity and upon returning to Jerusalem, they rebuilt a 2nd Temple but had lost the Ark of the Covenant. Today the Ethiopian Orthodox Patriarch claim to have it. Regardless, the 2nd Temple did not have it, only a raised area.

Even if the Jews rebuilt a 3rd Temple, they do not have the Ark of the Covenant. And even IF they acquired it, the Presence of YHWH is not within. Leviticus 10 has a warning to even kindle unauthorized fire in a censer ie an incense burner specifically for YHWH. Two of Aaron's sons died trying that.

Note that some Jews claim that the Ark might be below ground where the Temple Mount is said to be. That is why some Orthodox Jews will not go there as they fear stepping upon,where the Ark might be.

If God's Presence is not within a new Holy of Holies, it cannot be profaned as it is not sanctified. And reinstituting animal sacrifice is unnecessary according to Hebrew 9 and 10. Therefore I doubt that the Abomination of Desolation means the 3rd Temple. I even doubt the 3rd Temple could be made holy. It could only be declared sacred by men.

In Matthew 24 Jesus says where the body (carcass) the eagles or some versions say vultures will gather.

What holy place today had a body? The Church of the Holy Sepulchre for within is the Tomb from which Jesus was resurrected. What if the Antichrist profanes the Tomb of Christ? You should know that after Saladin seized Jerusalem, a later caliph ruined a part of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and for over seven hundred years the damage existed and was not repaired until 2017.

Each year an annual event occurs where fire appears inside the Tomb of Jesus and the Patriarch ignites the Paschal Candle which represents the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And when this happens, some believers candles also ignite. I make no claims as to the authenticity. Strange bursts of lights have been captured on video as well.

What if the Tomb of Jesus is actually within the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and that is the holy place where the Abomination of Desolation takes place?

Revelation points to a Temple that is measured by the two witnesses, but it doesn't say what that is.

Thank you for critiquing what I wrote. I am not making any claims. Just pointing out my thoughts.

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 24 discusses a timeline of what must happen before the Abomination of Desolation. I do not want to argue because people have very firm ideas. What I pray is we can have an enlightened discussion can take place where led by the Holy Spirit, new ideas that are Biblicaly correct and supported by Scriptures will lead us into Truth.

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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[Douggg]

Something has been on my thoughts for the last few years. I am a devout evangelical Christian and I have known Jesus practically my whole life. My earliest memories are praying to Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I have never ever turned away like others. I felt and feel an overwhelming love for Jesus and never doubted. Because of this I greatly enjoy studying the Bible.

Matthew 24 discusses a timeline of what must happen before the Abomination of Desolation. I do not want to argue because people have very firm ideas. What I pray is we can have an enlightened discussion can take place where led by the Holy Spirit, new ideas that are Biblicaly correct and supported by Scriptures will lead us into Truth.

I'm just an old man. I make no claims about being smarter than anyone else nor being more faithful. I have no pride about such things. And I want to discuss this amiably and with other devout Christians not with scoffers and atheists.

What did Jesus mean by the hagia? He did not specifically say Temple. It is presumed that the desecration will occur when the Antichrist ( Beast) initiates Beast worship in the holy place and or worshiping an animated graven image of the Beast. Then he institutes the mark of the Beast.

Now if we look at the Temple of Solomon, within it was a Veiled off area, and in the 1st Temple, the Ark of the Covenant was within and within that was the Tablets of the Ten Commandements. Animal sacrifices were made since the Presence of YHWH was within. At Yom Kippur, the high priest would go inside with blood to atone for the 12 Tribes of Israel and speak aloud the Name of God (YHWH) and offer up incense as a prayer.

When Jesus died on the cross, and said "It is finished" then the Veil was torn and by theology the Presence of YHWH left. According to tradition, this veil was four inches thick so it is not an accident.

In Hebrews 9 -10, Jesus has created a new covenant and is the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God while simultaneously the great high priest. And his body is the passage through the veil of the Most Holy Place.

Now after the Babylonian captivity and upon returning to Jerusalem, they rebuilt a 2nd Temple but had lost the Ark of the Covenant. Today the Ethiopian Orthodox Patriarch claim to have it. Regardless, the 2nd Temple did not have it, only a raised area.

Even if the Jews rebuilt a 3rd Temple, they do not have the Ark of the Covenant. And even IF they acquired it, the Presence of YHWH is not within. Leviticus 10 has a warning to even kindle unauthorized fire in a censer ie an incense burner specifically for YHWH. Two of Aaron's sons died trying that.

Note that some Jews claim that the Ark might be below ground where the Temple Mount is said to be. That is why some Orthodox Jews will not go there as they fear stepping upon,where the Ark might be.

If God's Presence is not within a new Holy of Holies, it cannot be profaned as it is not sanctified. And reinstituting animal sacrifice is unnecessary according to Hebrew 9 and 10. Therefore I doubt that the Abomination of Desolation means the 3rd Temple. I even doubt the 3rd Temple could be made holy. It could only be declared sacred by men.

In Matthew 24 Jesus says where the body (carcass) the eagles or some versions say vultures will gather.

What holy place today had a body? The Church of the Holy Sepulchre for within is the Tomb from which Jesus was resurrected. What if the Antichrist profanes the Tomb of Christ? You should know that after Saladin seized Jerusalem, a later caliph ruined a part of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and for over seven hundred years the damage existed and was not repaired until 2017.

Each year an annual event occurs where fire appears inside the Tomb of Jesus and the Patriarch ignites the Paschal Candle which represents the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And when this happens, some believers candles also ignite. I make no claims as to the authenticity. Strange bursts of lights have been captured on video as well.

What if the Tomb of Jesus is actually within the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and that is the holy place where the Abomination of Desolation takes place?

Revelation points to a Temple that is measured by the two witnesses, but it doesn't say what that is.

Thank you for critiquing what I wrote. I am not making any claims. Just pointing out my thoughts.

Hi CassiusCritizer, welcome to the forum. The tent tabernacle and the temples (the sanctuary building) was divided into two rooms. One was the Holy of Holies which is where the Ark was placed in the tent tabernacle and the first temple. No-one could enter but the high priest - once a year, on the Day of Atonement.

The other room, separated from the Holy of Holies by large heavy curtain, veil, was the called the "Holy" place.

"abomination of desolation" - the "desolation" in this particular case is that there will be no worship and praise of the One True God during the time the abomination is there - in the Holy place.

Separately, although related, a little before the abomination of desolation which will be an idol, an image, a statue of the beast in the standing position is placed in the Holy Place - the Antichrist (the King of Israel perceived messiah at the time) commits an act referred to as the "transgression" of desolation. The person becomes magnified in heart that he has achieved God-hood. Magnified in his heart is in Daniel 8:25.

That act is in 2Thessalonians2:4. Whereby he goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. Where in the temple he will sit is in the Holy of Holies - where the Ark would normally be - with the presence of God between the two angel figures on the Ark - called the mercy "seat".

God has the person killed for the act, which is in Ezekiel 28:1-10, the prince of Tyrus being a code name for the person.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Then in Isaiah 14, in disdain for the person, God does not let him rest in the place of the dead, and brings him back alive.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

The person comes back to life as the beast in Revelation 13, and the false prophet has an image made of him. That image is the abomination of desolation - which will be placed in the Holy room. And the beast will sit in the Holy of Holies room.

The transgression of desolation "act" (in the Holy of Holies room) triggers the Day of the Lord, shattering the Jews and the world saying peace and safety because they will have thought the Antichrist person is their messiah and they had entered the messianic era of peace and safety.

The abomination of desolation "idol" placed in the Holy room triggers the Great Tribulation.

_________________________________________________________

The presence of God will not be in the next temple built, which is likely to be downsized to get the temple sacrifices going again. The minimum size if built according to the tent tabernacle would be about the same size as two average bedrooms.

It will be called the Temple of God because the "intent" of the Jews building it will be for the praise and worship of the One True God. It is not a Christian undertaking and is important for us only in its prophecy significance.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

Let me make a brief comment first my brother or sister in Christ. If you write out the whole name of the book, then it will hyperlink. That is a far better way that I have noticed.

Jesus died on the cross and accomplished it all. The second he did, the veil was torn and the Presence of YHWH left. That means the 2nd Temple was no longer holy. Otherwise what Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 state is a lie. That would mean that Jesus did not accomplish it all.

That means that the destruction of the 2nd Temple is NOT the Abomination of Desolation.

First Josepheus is a Jew by the Biblical definition ie from the Southern Kingdom of Judea and hence of the Tribe of Judah. According to 1 John 2 he is an antichrist because whoever denies that Jesus is the Messiah is an antichrist. And whoever denies Jesus has neither Jesus nor YHWH.

When Jesus accomplished it all, every animal sacrifce after was not recognized by YHWH. If the Presence is gone due to Jesus accomplishing it all according to Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 , then even if every procedure was perfectly done, the Presence of YHWH would not be there. Thus the 3rd Temple might be constructed but never be holy.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

The book of Matthew might be geared to the Jews by Biblical definition of the Jews ie the ones who practices the Israelite religion of the Torah and Prophets. Jesus condemns the scribes who had started in 200 BC using a written interpretation that came to be called the Talmud and Zohar. Jesus strongly condemns those as sons of the Devil.

Regardless, Matthew is not excised out the New Testament and solely speaking to Biblical Jews as it says " what I say to you I say until ALL."

 

[CassiusCritzer]

Do you really think that rebuilding 3rd Temple can then be made holy? Explain how that could happen that doesn't violate the Atonement on the Cross.

 

[Douggg]

Do you really think that rebuilding 3rd Temple can then be made holy? Explain how that could happen that doesn't violate the Atonement on the Cross.

"Holy" means separated for God. That will be the intent of the temple to be built, forthcoming.

 

[shilohsfoal]

The abomination that causes desolation is not the worship of beast or anything else that is worshiped by man.
The abomination that causes desolation is exactly as the name describes it to be.An abomination that causes desolation.Do you not know anything a military can do to cause a place to be desolate?

 

[Douggg]

The abomination that causes desolation is not the worship of beast or anything else that is worshiped by man.
The abomination that causes desolation is exactly as the name describes it to be.An abomination that causes desolation.Do you not know anything a military can do to cause a place to be desolate?

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

So the thing and/or person who causes the desolation is removed.

Can you think of what happens to the beast and the statue image that speaks and demands everyone to worship it - when Jesus returns?

What cause the image to come alive and speak? Who is worshiped besides the beast in Revelation 13:4?

They worship (1) the beast (2) and the dragon. Satan will incarnate the image and make it appear to come alive.

Go to Ezekiel 28, the prophecy against the King of Tyrus, a code name for Satan.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground [Revelation 12:12], I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Jesus at His Return, the brightness of His coming is going to melt away the outer facade of the image - bringing it to ashes and there will be Satan for everyone gathered, surrounding Jerusalem and the temple mount - to see.

The beast cast into the lake of fire and the Satan bound in chains is the cleansing of the temple - spoken of in Daniel 8:14. Transgression of desolation (the Antichrist in the temple) and Abomination of desolation (the image of the beast in the temple incarnated by Satan) - both to be removed from the temple that will be built with the intention of praise and worship of the One True God, when Jesus returns.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

No. In Daniel the Abomination which causes Desolation is profaning the truly holy spot in which YHWH's Presence dwelt to accept animal sacrifices.

Those ended with Jesus on the cross. There is no way YHWH is going to invalidate Yeshua's sacrifice and allow new animal sacrifices. To do so would only confirm the doubts of modern day believers in Judaism. Then why would they believe in Yeshua ha Mashiach????

 

[CassiusCritzer]

Consider this. Christianity is the valid religion that was only realized by the Messiah coming as a result of the religion of the 12 Tribes which relied upon the Torah and the Prophets.

Judaism is not in any way like the religion of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah. They are markedly different.

It is clear in both Matthew 24 and in Luke 21 that Jerusalem is surrounded and captured and made desolate. This is also in Hadith in Islam and they say their Mahdi will do it. And everything about the Antichrist is strangely similar to the Mahdi.

Yes, The 3rd Temple could be made as simply as erecting tents with the inner portion having a recreation of the holy of holies akin to a museum. That would NEVER be holy.

This is why what is already holy in the Tomb of Jesus could in fact be profaned and be an Abomination and if converted to a mosque then made Desolate.

 

[Douggg]

No. In Daniel the Abomination which causes Desolation is profaning the truly holy spot in which YHWH's Presence dwelt to accept animal sacrifices.

Those ended with Jesus on the cross. There is no way YHWH is going to invalidate Yeshua's sacrifice and allow new animal sacrifices. To do so would only confirm the doubts of modern day believers in Judaism. Then why would they believe in Yeshua ha Mashiach????

Did Jesus in Daniel 8 - stop the daily sacrifice and commit the Transgression of Desolation ?

 

[Douggg]

Consider this. Christianity is the valid religion that was only realized by the Messiah coming as a result of the religion of the 12 Tribes which relied upon the Torah and the Prophets.

Judaism is not in any way like the religion of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah. They are markedly different.

It is clear in both Matthew 24 and in Luke 21 that Jerusalem is surrounded and captured and made desolate. This is also in Hadith in Islam and they say their Mahdi will do it. And everything about the Antichrist is strangely similar to the Mahdi.

Yes, The 3rd Temple could be made as simply as erecting tents with the inner portion having a recreation of the holy of holies akin to a museum. That would NEVER be holy.

This is why what is already holy in the Tomb of Jesus could in fact be profaned and be an Abomination and if converted to a mosque then made Desolate.

Can the Mahdi become the King of Israel messiah - instead of and against Jesus, the rightful King of Israel?

See my short post #1 in this thread...

Three Key Verses to understand the role of the Antichrist

The person has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism. Judaism, a rabbi once told me, is simply the religion of the Jews.

The only perceivable role of a Mahdi figure is "maybe" in conjunction with Gog/Magog which just precedes the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

You are confusing "sacred" and "holy". The 1st Temple was sacred as it was a place for devout Jews to perform an animal sacrifice for their sins and do so and be accepted by the sanctified holy place of God's Presence. The only holy spot was were God's Presence was. That is the Holy of Holies.

A church is not holy, only sacred. Since Jesus accomplished it all, a 3rd Temple could never be made holy ie sanctified.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

First, the Mahdi of Islam is a very good candidate for the Antichrist. We can talk about that step by step.

Secondly, let's look at Hebrews 9.

8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ

11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,a he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtainingb eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,c so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

Hebrews 9

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.26Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

[Douggg]

You are confusing "sacred" and "holy". The 1st Temple was sacred as it was a place for devout Jews to perform an animal sacrifice for their sins and do so and be accepted by the sanctified holy place of God's Presence. The only holy spot was were God's Presence was. That is the Holy of Holies.

A church is not holy, only sacred. Since Jesus accomplished it all, a 3rd Temple could never be made holy ie sanctified.

"sacred" is not one of the terms in the prophecies. And it is not an issue of whether animal sacrifices are a valid means to removal of sins for eternal life - they never were.

The Holy Place was outside of the Holy of Holies. The prophecies are focused on the architecture of the structure of the temple. What is designated as the Holy Place room and the Holy of Holies room.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

Hebrews 10

19Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Jesus accomplished it all. This is why animal sacrifices are no longer needed. God will NOT recognize new animal sacrifices. God will not send his Presence to a new reconstructed holy of holies. If God did, it would negate the Atonement on the cross of Yeshua ha Mashiach!

 

[Douggg]

First, the Mahdi of Islam is a very good candidate for the Antichrist. We can talk about that step by step.

We can talk about it, but I have studied the matter for over 46 years, I am 69, and looked into the Mahdi muslim possibility 12 -14 years ago and dismissed it for several reasons.

1. the Mahdi is not qualified to be the Antichrist.
2. there is no corresponding figure in the bible to be the dajjal that the Mahdi is supposed to fight against, who is supposed to ride across the middle east on a big white mule at incredible speeds - and Isa the muslim Jesus comes to defeat the dajjal. No dajjal figure in the bible.

The muslim Antichrist theory is based upon...

1. the Mahdi = the Antichrist, beast
2. the muslim Isa = the false prophet
3. the dajjal = that's what's missing, no corresponding figure in bible prophecies to match the dajjal. And before you say Jesus, the Mahdi is supposed to encounter in battle the dajjal before Isa returns. So it can't be the real Jesus as the dajjal.

The whole thing is big non match.

Islamic end times prophecies are one upsmanship of the real bible prophecies and are full of exaggeration. They will just never materialize because they are not valid to begin with. Only in a self fulfilling sense that there may be someone claim to be the mahdi when the muslim attack Israel in Gog/Magog.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

Let's clear up some confusion, shall we?

Let's compare the religion of the 12 Tribes of the Northern Kingdom ten tribes of Israel and the Tribe of Judah that made up Judea.

They believed in a literal interpretation of the Torah and the Prophets.
The Ten Commandments are the highest moral absolutes.

They sacrificed animals on altars when they had no Temple and sacrificed animals within the Temple of Solomon.

Adult male converts got circumcized by fully removing the foreskin.

The only true religion was the Israelite religion. Everything else was heresy.

Converts from outside the tribes were ill thought of but recognized.


Modern day Judaism
The Torah is a collection of myths not literal.
The Talmud is treated higher in authority to the Torah.
The Ten Commandments are suggestions and not moral absolutes.
There are many ways to Heaven.
The 12 Tribes died out.
Only the Cohen can sort of trace their ancestry.
Most are Khazars and Ashkenazi.
Adult male converts only receive a pinprick instead of circumcision.
Most are atheistss ie only ethnically connected.
Since the 2nd Temple was destroyed, there are no animal sacrifices.

In 1948, the UN created the state of Israel deeply upseting the Hassidic Jews and many Orthodox Jews.

How are the two groups the same????