The "holy place" Abomination of Desolation

[Douggg]

There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. I don't care what John Hagee says.

I couldn't agree with you more.

He says that Jews have a special covenant and therefore he doesn't witness to Jews.

The Jews have never had a covenant for eternal life. The gospel message of salvation applies for everyone.

He says the Messiah was not for Christians which I find shocking.

I have not listen to John Hagee explain himself on this, but I think he might mean "the" messiah in biblical context refers to the promised great King of Israel, descended from David.

Christ, and thus messiah, in Christianity, we key in on that Jesus is the Savior from our sins. But to Jews in Judaism, "the" messiah does not mean Savior. God being their Savior, to them means from physical destruction.

You should research how horrible vile malevolent things are in the Talmud where they admit they killed Yeshua, that his mother was a prostitute, his true father was a Roman soldier, he was a pagan magician, was a servant of the devil, and not boils in human waste eternally. It is sickening.

That is so ungodly that it is the words of Lucifer.

Acts 9:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

 

[David Kent]

2. the confirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is not a peace treaty, but is found in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 as a requirement Moses made of all future leaders of Israel to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on the 7 year shmita cycle.

It was Jesus who confirmed the covenant with the Jews. There is nothing about Antichrist in Daniel 9

1. the Antichrist has to be a Jew.

No he doesn't. He is the little horn that came out of the 10 nations that overthrew the Roman Empire, therefore he has to be a Roman King, ie the Pope.

 

[Douggg]

2 Corinthians 5:17 is this.
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:a The old has gone, the new is here!
Is that what you meant because it has nothing to do with what I wrote about being a child of Abraham? Spiritually we are Israelites even more than most members of Judaism. Technically speaking they are nothing like Biblical Jews.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I have no desire to become an Israelite.

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[David Kent]

Christ, and thus messiah, in Christianity, we key in on that Jesus is the Savior from our sins. But to Jews in Judaism, "the" messiah does not mean Savior. God being their Savior, to them means from physical destruction.

Jesus or Joshua means Saviour. "You shall call him Jesus because he will save his people from their sins."

 

[CassiusCritzer]

I realize there are mainstream Protestants ie Episcopalian, ELCA, Methodist, Roman Catholics who think the Abomination of Desolation already happened in 70 AD. That is impossible as when the Presence of YHWH left when Jesus died on the cross, you cannot profane what is no longer holy.

That means it is yet to come. The only way that could happen in a 3rd Jewish Temple would violate the Atonement of Jesus Christ as stated by Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 and in innumerable places in the New Testament.

This is quite a quandry, isn't it? And it is tied to a holy place and a place where there is or was a carcass such that vultures gather.

By all means prove me wrong. I wish someone would. I cannot believe would allow new animal sacrifices for even an hour.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

David Kent, since the fifties, people have blamed the Papacy for the source of the Antichrist with a capital A and since Martin Luther blamed the Papacy with a little a. I hope this is not so.

Obviously as an evangelical I vehemently disagree with RC beliefs on many issues but we should keep the conversation as civil as possible.

Chick tracts in the seventies whipped that all back up. And since 2000, the Petrus Romanus prophecy by Malachi again got it stirred up.

 

[Douggg]

No he doesn't. He is the little horn that came out of the 10 nations that overthrew the Roman Empire, therefore he has to be a Roman King, ie the Pope.

David, the person who is the arch villain of the end times has to fit two tracks.


One track is that he is descended from the Romans. The Roman Empire track, as the beast.

And becomes the little horn (the 7th king of the Roman Empire of the Julio-Claudians) before the 7 years begin, and the beast (the 8th king of the Roman Empire) for the last 42 months of the 7 years.
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The other track is the King of Israel track (the Antichrist). He must be a Jew (which is by virtue of his mother being a Jew) so that he can be anointed the King of Israel, which is what makes him the Antichrist. As the Antichrist, about 3 years a little more into his reign, he betrays his own people - earning him the title son of perdition (like Judas the betrayer) - and the covenant that God promised to be the God of the Jews - when he goes into the temple sits, claiming to be God. That ends his time as the Antichrist.

When God has him killed and brought back to life, he becomes the beast reverting back to his Roman Empire track as the ten Euro kings support him.

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In transition from Jew (the Antichrist) to the beast (the Roman Empire king).....

The person has to be a Jew because in Isaiah 14:19-20, he is likened to an abominable branch (descended from Jesse, David's father) contrasted to Jesus the righteous branch. God has disdain for the person because he destroys his land and his people - he is a Jew.

When he is cast out of the grave - he become the beast.

As such, on top of being a Jew, he is also a descendant from the Julio-Claudian line of Caesars.

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Little horn 7th Julio Claudian King of the Roman Empire----> becomes the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog-----> is perceived to be the Messsiah, anointed the King of Israel - the Antichrist------> betrays Israel, ending his Antichrist reign King of Israel, revealed as the man of sin---------> is killed and brought back to life-------> as the beast, 8th Julio Claudian King of the Roman Empire.

Most of Revelation is in regards to being the King of the Roman Empire - not as for the time of being the Antichrist King of Israel.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

You do realize lots of people have relatives that are formerly from members of Judaism and Western Europe. Heck that certainly could be true of the Mahdi or practically anyone outside of China and Korea or Japan. Better DNA tests will tell you where your ancestors are from and what you mentioned is very common.

 

[Douggg]

It was Jesus who confirmed the covenant with the Jews. There is nothing about Antichrist in Daniel 9

The prince who shall come from the people who destroyed the temple - that person will become the Antichrist, King of Israel (illegitimate). He will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year shmita cycle as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The speech he gives has to be from the place of God's choosing - which I have talked to Jews about - and they consider the temple mount the place of God's choosing.

Which it can't be done until the muslims are gone from the temple mount. Which conincides with the 7 years in Ezekiel 39 following Gog/Magog. Which btw, is a 100% concrete chapter on when the 7 years take place because of the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

No he doesn't. He is the little horn that came out of the 10 nations that overthrew the Roman Empire, therefore he has to be a Roman King, ie the Pope.

That theory is a no go on several fronts. One is the Pope is not qualified to be the Antichrist. And the other is to make that theory work, all the timeframes given in the end times prophecies have to be changed to years - when the text says days. And the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11 is impossible to mean years.

It is not ten nations in Daniel 7, but ten kings of ONE kingdom, the fourth empire. The kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23, in the latter time of it. The EU has evolved through several stages, since it being founded by the treaties of Rome.

The EU has one more stage to go and that is to reform with ten leaders, with one leader over them.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

There is very little support for a 3rd Temple from the members of Judaism. Only the rabid members of the Temple Mount group push for it.

On the other hand there is tremendous support to competely seize Jerusalem among Shia Muslims. And destroy anything that is Christian or Jewish for good. Moshe Dayan gave back the Temple Mount.
The Israeli Relinquishment of the Temple Mount

 

[Douggg]

By all means prove me wrong. I wish someone would. I cannot believe would allow new animal sacrifices for even an hour.

For some reason, you are thinking that the animal sacrifices have to be something that God approves of. It is just talking about what the Jews (Israel) will do. Their actions. The beast will do things that God doesn't approve of. The little horn will do things that God doesn't approve of. And on down the line.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

No my brother in Christ. For animal sacrifices to even be legitimate, God's Presence would have to sanctify a new holy of holies. That is what I doubt. I have no doubt they will occur but never with God's Presence. Therefore the 3rd Temple is not an Abomination as it is not holy. A 3rd temple made of tents an mock ups of the furnishing could be made fast...it. wouldn't be an Abomination of Desolation. It would just be a sacrilege. Big difference. Pig's blood can be a sacrilege in a temple or mosque.

 

[CassiusCritzer]

According to 1 John 2, Jews antichrists who have neither Jesus nor YHWH. They are not beloved of God. Quite the opposite. As such, how can they even petition God to reenter the Holy of Holies? Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Douggg]

No my brother in Christ. For animal sacrifices to even be legitimate, God's Presence would have to sanctify a new holy of holies. That is what I doubt. I have no doubt they will occur but never with God's Presence. Therefore the 3rd Temple is not an Abomination as it is not holy. A 3rd temple made of tents an mock ups of the furnishing could be made fast...it. wouldn't be an Abomination of Desolation. It would just be a sacrilege. Big difference. Pig's blood can be a sacrilege in a temple or mosque.

After Jesus was crucified and resurrected - did the Jews still continue to do animal sacrifices in the temple ? Was there a Holy of Holies room in the temple ? Was there a Holy room in the temple? Yes, to all of the questions.

It was not because God approved, but because of what the Jews did because they did not believe in Jesus. The Jews, Israel, does not believe in Jesus and are going to build another temple and do the animal sacrifices - no different than up to 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.

Jesus was cutoff, crucified, after 69 weeks, a Caesar was ruling the Roman Empire at the time.

Counting of the weeks put on hold for 2000 years to the end times....and picks up where it left off. A Caesar, of the Julio Claudian family line will be ruling the Roman Empire (of the end times, the EU) when the last week, 70th week begins.

The Jews stated at Jesus's crucifixion - we have no king but Caesar, a Julio Claudian. Fast forward to the end times. The Julio Claudian king of the EU will become their perceived messiah King of Israel.

Said person after he is killed and brought back to life will be the eighth Julio Claudian Caesar to rule the Roman Empire - but as the beast.

 

[BABerean2]

Was there a Holy of Holies room in the temple ? Was there a Holy room in the temple?

There was nothing "Holy" in the second temple after God's Son offered the final sacrifice for sin, and the temple veil was ripped in half. (See Hebrews 7:12, and Hebrews 10:16-18.)

It was just a building, made of stone.

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[shilohsfoal]

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[Douggg]

There was nothing "Holy" in the second temple after God's Son offered the final sacrifice for sin, and the temple veil was ripped in half. (See Hebrews 7:12, and Hebrews 10:16-18.)

It was just a building, made of stone.

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The Jews did not take that position. The prophecies are about what the Jews will do.

 

[jgr]

The Jews did not take that position. The prophecies are about what the Jews will do.

The Jews have no position because their covenant is decayed and vanished (Hebrews 8:13). The prophecies are about what Christ has done.

 

[Douggg]

The Jews have no position because their covenant is decayed and vanished (Hebrews 8:13). The prophecies are about what Christ has done.

The Jews position regarding Jesus is wrong, but it is their position nonetheless. And they will act upon what they believe.

jgr, don't you see that you are arguing theology and not eschatology?

 

[jgr]

The Jews position regarding Jesus is wrong, but it is their position nonetheless. And they will act upon what they believe.

jgr, don't you see that you are arguing theology and not eschatology?

Not arguing anything, Douggg. Just relaying Scripture.