The Healed Head Of The Beast

[Kingdom_Come]

1) No one, not even the antichrist, can do anything without the say so of God. 2) The Day of the LORD will be against all those who do evil, not against the saints of the Most High. Therefore, look at the signs and look up and await the soon coming Lord.

1) Amen and 2) amen. I do not necessarily agree with you on everything however I agree with you on these two points. The church has been persecuted and has been through tribulation since its inception. The historical record affirms this and cannot be refuted. Personally I believe in the future revealing of the son of perdition because all of prophecy concerning the subject makes it plain that his defeat happens at the appearing of Christ. It is not the result of suicide or death from old age. I believe in the literal appearing of Christ and so I believe in a literal confrontation. Since there is no evidence this has happened historically that leaves only the possibility of a future fulfillment. However on these two points we do agree.

 

[Barraco]

1) Amen and 2) amen. I do not necessarily agree with you on everything however I agree with you on these two points. The church has been persecuted and has been through tribulation since its inception. The historical record affirms this and cannot be refuted. Personally I believe in the future revealing of the son of perdition because all of prophecy concerning the subject makes it plain that his defeat happens at the appearing of Christ. It is not the result of suicide or death from old age. I believe in the literal appearing of Christ and so I believe in a literal confrontation. Since there is no evidence this has happened historically that leaves only the possibility of a future fulfillment. However on these two points we do agree.

I have a parallel to defend my interpretation. In the book of Daniel, he calls Belshazzar the son of Nebuchadnezzar, when in actuality, he is the grandson of Nechadnezzar. Technically, the king was the other king's son, no matter how far back they go. It was thought during those times that the seed of all of Israel was in the loins of Abraham, and thus the nation was in him. Here is where I draw my parallel. If the antichrist had come over a thousand years ago and still passed his title, teachings, and authority over to his successor, would this not also mean that the successor and his successors bear the same title, teachings, and authority? And thus the antichrist lives on through tradition and succession until Christ comes to put an end to his lying and blasphemous position. I think you may be able to pinpoint who I'm talking about. God bless

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Barraco quote.
“From what we know from Daniel 7, the beast of Revelation 13 is identified as the Roman Empire. Unquote.
The Roman empire was around for some 622 years. Yet Revelation 13: 5. the verse you quoted says the beast has power for only ‘FORTY TWO MONTHS.’
The figures don’t add up. Charlemagne (c.742-814), Frankish king and Emperor of the West (Holy Roman Empire) (800-14).
He was in power for 14 years, that is far too long to fit the Bible’s time limitations of the fourth beast’s reign.

Rev 13: 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: AND THE DRAGON GAVE HIM HIS POWER, and his seat, and great authority.
3. And I saw ONE OF HIS HEADS as it WERE WOUNDED TO DEATH; and his DEADLY wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4. And THEY WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON WHICH GAVE POWER UNOT THE BEAST: and THEY WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13: 5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; AND POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO CONTINUE FORTY TWO MONTHS.
Roman empire 622 years does not compare with 42 months for the fourth beast power.
Rev 13: 6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7And it was given unto him TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and to overcome them: and power was given him OVER ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS.
Bible students, know that the ‘dragon’ is Satan.
It is the ‘dragon,’ Satan that will give the beast power for 42 months after he and his angels are cast out of Heaven. It is in Heaven that the fallen angel receives his deadly wound,. He was told about that in. Gen 3: 15. “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; IT SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, AND THOU SHALT BRUISE HIS HEEL.”
Since when did Charlemagne (c.742-814), Frankish king and Emperor of the West (Holy Roman Empire) (800-14). Do the above last verse and go after the Saints?

The War in Heaven
Rev 12: 7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the DRAGON; and the DRAGON fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great DRAGON was cast out, that old SERPENT, CALLED THE DEVIL, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and HIS ANGELS were cast out with him.

Rev 12: 10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night
Rev 12: 11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

There is a blessing waiting for those that get to the 1335 days and those that may die for His testimony.
Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
The blessing is given in Rev 19: 9. “And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.”

This next event is within the same time span.
Rev 11: 2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot FORTY TWO MONTHS.

The place of the daily is the outer court of the Temple.
Rev 11: 2. Is linked to Daniel 12: 11. however if you look into your K.J.V. Bible you will see that the word ‘sacrifice’ is in italics indicating it was added. The Aramaic

language in which Daniel, was written reads as follows.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time the PLACE OF THE DAILY SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.
Simply look at the short time spans of these end time events which must fit into the 2300 ereb boqer of Daniel 8: 14. Also look where the abomination of desolation is to be set up in the last quoted verse.

Now if you want to know who the ‘LITTLE HORN’ is and you want the above repeated in a chapter of Daniel 8: I can do that easily, which will confirm the above but without that added word ‘SACRIFICE!’
Which is, as I said in italics and not in the original Aramaic script, I will delete to bring the translation back to the original written by the Prophet Daniel.

Daniel 8: 9. “And out of one of them came forth A LITTLE HORN, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

We know who caused some of the stars/angels to fall from of Heaven to Earth, see Rev 12: 4. It was Satan, and here we have the little horn identified as Satan, by that very same one off act.
So remembering the context in whom this is about, ‘the LITTLE HORN’ in verse 9 and this is what he does in verse 10.
Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; AND IT CAST DOWN some of the host and of the STARS to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Daniel 8: 11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the place of the DAILY WAS TAKEN AWAY, and THE PLACE OF HIS SANCTUASRY WAS.
Daniel 8: 12. And an host was given against the PLACE OF THE DAILY by reason of TRANSGRESSION, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.”

All this stuff going on, but for how long?

Daniel 8: 13. “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG THE VISION the DAILY, and the transgression of desolation, to give BOTH THE SANCTUARY and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
Six and a bit years.

Daniel 8: 15. And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

Daniel, was told by Gabriel, himself about the time of the vision and the answer was not ‘70AD.’
The angel came real close to Daniel, to make the point.
Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: for AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

To make sure Daniel the Prophet and therefore everyone reading Daniel 8: gets that message Gabriel, repeated the intent in even clearer terms.

Dan 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I WILL MAKE THEE KNOW WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END of the indignation: FOR THE TIME APPOINTED THE END.

The LAST END was not 70AD.

Barraco quote.
“We can tell that by counting back in the description of the beast and notice that its the reverse order of the beasts described in Daniel 7, which shows which state it is in.” Unquote

I agree that Rev 13: 2. does show the Lion. Beast one. The Bear, beast two, and the leopard beast three supporting the fourth Beast power. That is managed by the fallen angel with the mortal wound, who is given power for 42 months by Satan Yes I agree the lion, bear, and leopard have fallen away into total apostasy.

Barraco quote.
“But we also know that all the beasts of Daniel 7 are one big beast as described in Daniel 2 by showing the statue with the different metals representing Gentile World Kingdoms.” Unquote.”

The gold, being the Babylonian empire and the silver, being the Medo/Persian empire and the brass, being the Greek empire and finally the iron, being the Roman empire, is correct but the Bible, does not say that those empires have a relationship to the beast powers. Not one verse can be used to do that.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that let alone in Daniel 2: or chapter 7 of Daniel.

The problem with the last suggestion of the beasts in Daniel 7: as being past empires is that the lion, bear, leopard ARE AROUND AT THE SAME TIME, around TOGETHER then ALL THREE are joined into the fourth beast power, run by the fallen angel with the mortal wound for only forty two months, that is when Jesus sets up His everlasting kingdom and yes the fourth beast is killed first in Rev 19: 19 - 20.
He is killed before the 1st lion beast and the 2nd bear beast and 3rd leopard beast’s time has run out . After which all three are left waiting a’ time and season’ in Rev 19: 21. Then after which they are killed with the sword in Rev 19: 21. None of the past empires were around together for the time when Jesus is to set up His kingdom but the lion. Bear and leopard are.
Also you forget that the fourth beast empire only has 42 months to rule.
Yet the historic empires depicted in there correct order of rising and falling,
Is as follows and indicated on the empire metal time statue. Which is nothing like the order of things for the lion. Bear, leopard and the fourth beats power, depicted in Daniel 7: or Revelation.19:
The Babylonian empire rises 608 BC?
Then fades into history. 539 BC?

The Medo/Persian empire rises. 539 BC?
Then fades into history. 331 BC?

The Greek empire rises. 331BC?
Then fades into history. 146 BC?

Then the Roman empire rises. 146 BC?
Then fades into history. 476 AD?
There they are all spread out just like the metals down the time statue.

Yet the BEASTS are around at THE SAME TIME where the fourth beast empire is killed off BEFORE the three preceding beasts and just before the everlasting kingdom is set up.
So how can it be that the Roman empire is killed off before the preceding metal empires of gold. Silver and brass?
For that reason alone I can’t see the beasts as representative of past empires, it does not blend biblically, factually or historically.
The time spans of Daniel 7: and Revelation 13; 5. Won’t let the historic explanation stand biblically and I am going to use a lot more Bible to show more proof of that fact. That suggestion that the beasts are in any way related with past empires is unsound.

Barraco quote.
“The beasts: Leopard, Bear, Lion. Its reversed from Daniel 7.
The heads: Babylon, Persia, the four kingdoms of greece, and Rome.
So, the heads are just the kingdoms that have ruled since God gave power to Babylon to take Jerusalem and exile His people.
It said that one of the head's were wounded, but miraculously healed. If you recall Revelation 17, a head represents a king as well as a kingdom. So the mortal wound would have been the dethronement of the proper king over his kingdom. This happened to the Roman empire in A.D. 476 when Romulus Augustus was dethroned by the Heruli mercenary Odoacer. This stopped the rule of Caesar over the West.
Afterward, many kingdoms began to start forming in the West, which are represented by the ten horns with ten crowns.
The mortal wound was healed in A.D. 800 when Charlamagne was crowned 'imperator Augustus' over the 'Holy Roman Empire' after conquering all of Gaul. Thus was the wound healed and Roman imperialism continued. So the wound was the dethronement of Augustus to the enthronement of Augustus.
That's that in a nut shell! God bless”

Charlemagne (c.742-814), Frankish king and Emperor of the West (Holy Roman Empire) (800-14). That’s 14 years rule, that is far too long.
The beast with the mortal wound is a created being. He is thrown into the burning lake of fire with the False prophet by the KING OF KINGS. See Rev 19: 20.
The fellow you speak of was around in power longer than 42 months of the fourth beast power. See Rev 13: 5.
Also the lion, bear, and leopard, are to be slain at the same time Rev 19: 21.

None of your ideas fit within the specified time span of 2300 ereb/evening, boqer/morning spoken of by the angel Gabriel, to the Prophet Daniel.
If you wish to check out the time span of the 2300 ereb boqer chezev/visions, go to Geneses 1: creation week and the word ereb/evening and boqer/morning are used in that first week which cannot be translated to mean years.

Look I will do it for you. Geneses 1: 5. “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the (6153)ereb/evening and the (1242)boqer/morning were the first day.
This term is used for all the days.
Gen 1: 19. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

One other thing is the beast is a created being. Re 19: 20 says ‘These BOTH WERE CAST ALIVE into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.’ The beast is not the Roman empire he is thrown into the burning lake of fire ‘ALIVE’ with the False prophet by the KING OF KINGS.

Now all I have done is use the Bible, fairly extensively and backed up the same time spans and events linked with the same persons involved with other verses for verification. If you do not agree then use the same verses and give your explanation of them verse by verse.

 

[Athaliamum]

What about the fact that Revelation reveals that no one will be able to buy or sell without the mark and denotes specific locations on the body where the mark is to be implanted (why not the left hand or the neck or something, in fact why even mention a location)?

I also think that it is interesting that the places where the beast will mark are the same place where God tells the Israelites to mark as signs of his commandments.

Deut. 6:8
Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead.

I think that the symbology though here needs to be understood. While these areas could very well be physical, they are metephor. The hand denotes action, the forehead thoughts. There is possibility that mark itself may not be physical.

 

[Zadok7000]

I also think that it is interesting that the places where the beast will mark are the same place where God tells the Israelites to mark as signs of his commandments.

Deut. 6:8
Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead.

I think that the symbology though here needs to be understood. While these areas could very well be physical, they are metephor. The hand denotes action, the forehead thoughts. There is possibility that mark itself may not be physical.

and
(that darn Scripture interpreting Scripture again...)

 

[Barraco]

Barraco quote.
“From what we know from Daniel 7, the beast of Revelation 13 is identified as the Roman Empire. Unquote.
The Roman empire was around for some 622 years. Yet Revelation 13: 5. the verse you quoted says the beast has power for only ‘FORTY TWO MONTHS.’

ACTUALLY, the mouth of the beast is allowed to CONTINUE for 42 months, not the actual beast itself. The mouth of the beast is paralleled with the little horn that replaces three other horns amidst the ten horns.

The figures don’t add up. Charlemagne (c.742-814), Frankish king and Emperor of the West (Holy Roman Empire) (800-14).
He was in power for 14 years, that is far too long to fit the Bible’s time limitations of the fourth beast’s reign.

again, the bible never gave the beast a time frame.

Rev 13: 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: AND THE DRAGON GAVE HIM HIS POWER, and his seat, and great authority.
3. And I saw ONE OF HIS HEADS as it WERE WOUNDED TO DEATH; and his DEADLY wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4. And THEY WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON WHICH GAVE POWER UNOT THE BEAST: and THEY WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13: 5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; AND POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO CONTINUE FORTY TWO MONTHS.
Roman empire 622 years does not compare with 42 months for the fourth beast power.
Rev 13: 6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7And it was given unto him TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and to overcome them: and power was given him OVER ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS.
Bible students, know that the ‘dragon’ is Satan.
It is the ‘dragon,’ Satan that will give the beast power for 42 months after he and his angels are cast out of Heaven. It is in Heaven that the fallen angel receives his deadly wound,. He was told about that in. Gen 3: 15. “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; IT SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, AND THOU SHALT BRUISE HIS HEEL.”
Since when did Charlemagne (c.742-814), Frankish king and Emperor of the West (Holy Roman Empire) (800-14). Do the above last verse and go after the Saints?

Just for reassurance, I'm going to break down the verse for you: "And he [beast] was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he [mouth] was allowed to continue [other manuscripts say 'make war'] for forty-two months. And it was granted him [mouth] to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him [mouth] over every tribe, people, tongue, and nation." -Revelation 13:5-7 [NKJV]

And also, it doesn't specify when he was given the time frame, even if the subject in question isn't the mouth. For example: We don't know that of all the years the Roman Empire existed, whether God limited its reign before or after the healing of the head, which could have been any time. What I get from it is that the time frame starts from when the beast recieves its MOUTH.

let me go to Daniel 7 to clarify this. Keep in mind that the little horn is the mouth of the beast. Look for similarities: "I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." -Daniel 7:8

"I watched then because of the sound of the great things which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame." Daniel 7:11

"The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; he shall be different from the first ones; and shall dubdue three kings. He shall spaeak great things against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall inted to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time." -Daniel 7:24-25

Here is where I make my point. If you notice the way Daniel describes it, the beast wasn't given a time limit until the litte horn arrived. Not only does this horn stand for a king, but a kingdom. And this one was to be different. This king would be permitted to equal himself with God in his eyes and the eyes of the people.

So, no, just because the Roman Empire was given 1260 days or years or whatever to continue, it doesn't mean thats how long it had to live.

The War in Heaven
Rev 12: 7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the DRAGON; and the DRAGON fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great DRAGON was cast out, that old SERPENT, CALLED THE DEVIL, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and HIS ANGELS were cast out with him.

Rev 12: 10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night
Rev 12: 11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

There is a blessing waiting for those that get to the 1335 days and those that may die for His testimony.
Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
The blessing is given in Rev 19: 9. “And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.”

Well.......I think you missed the point of Daniel 10-12. What those chapters were for were to list the events that were to take place from the exile of the Jewish people until the first coming of the Messiah. Then with all vagueness, the end result is given.

This next event is within the same time span.
Rev 11: 2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot FORTY TWO MONTHS.

The place of the daily is the outer court of the Temple.
Rev 11: 2. Is linked to Daniel 12: 11. however if you look into your K.J.V. Bible you will see that the word ‘sacrifice’ is in italics indicating it was added. The Aramaic

language in which Daniel, was written reads as follows.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time the PLACE OF THE DAILY SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS.
Simply look at the short time spans of these end time events which must fit into the 2300 ereb boqer of Daniel 8: 14. Also look where the abomination of desolation is to be set up in the last quoted verse.

Here is where I will say something. Beware of forcing similarities in Scripture. For instance. If the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away is related to the time frame that the place of sacrifice is given to the Gentiles and the two witnesses start, then there are still 26.5 days still left unaccounted for. We do know that when the two witnesses are resurrected and raptured, then that must be the same time that Christ comes, meaning that there is no more time left for the time frame and thus 26.5 days left unaccounted for.

Now if you want to know who the ‘LITTLE HORN’ is and you want the above repeated in a chapter of Daniel 8: I can do that easily, which will confirm the above but without that added word ‘SACRIFICE!’
Which is, as I said in italics and not in the original Aramaic script, I will delete to bring the translation back to the original written by the Prophet Daniel.

Again, forcing similarities. The horn of chapter 8 was to represent Antiochus Epiphanes of the Greek Kingdom which was the third beast mentioned in Daniel 7, not the fourth. Notice that the Mohammedans took over both the Greek and Eastern Roman dominions.

Daniel 8: 9. “And out of one of them came forth A LITTLE HORN, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

We know who caused some of the stars/angels to fall from of Heaven to Earth, see Rev 12: 4. It was Satan, and here we have the little horn identified as Satan, by that very same one off act.
So remembering the context in whom this is about, ‘the LITTLE HORN’ in verse 9 and this is what he does in verse 10.
Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; AND IT CAST DOWN some of the host and of the STARS to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Daniel 8: 11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the place of the DAILY WAS TAKEN AWAY, and THE PLACE OF HIS SANCTUASRY WAS.
Daniel 8: 12. And an host was given against the PLACE OF THE DAILY by reason of TRANSGRESSION, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.”

All this stuff going on, but for how long?

Daniel 8: 13. “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG THE VISION the DAILY, and the transgression of desolation, to give BOTH THE SANCTUARY and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
Six and a bit years.

Okay lets look at this more thorougly: What is that transgression they are talking about that allowe Antiochus Epiphanes to prosper in his deeds against God's people? It wasn't his transgression, but the transgression of the people. When Antiochus Epiphanes became king, there was a man named Jesus [not the Christ] that payed Antiochus a great sum of money to become High Priest while the other Onias was still High Priest. So Antiochus took the simony and made Jesus High Priest. When Jesus became high priest, he changed his name to Jason to fit the Greek culture and gave the temple away to idolatry. He also convinced many of the Jewish people to forsake their Jewish traditions and partake in Grecian traditions. For THIS EVENT was Antiochus allowed to prosper in turning against the Jewish people and set up the abomination which causes desolation. So the actual event starts when Jason became High Priest, not when Antiochus slew a swine on the altar of God. "Then I heard a holy one speakin; and another holy one said to the certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concernin the daily sacrifices and thetransgression of desolation, the giving of both the sacntuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?" And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleanesed" -Daniel 8:13-14

So here, it shows that the time doesn't start from when Antiochus came in and slew a swine on the altar, it starts from when the transgression of desolation began; meaning from when the people forsook their God to worship Greek gods. Josephus describes that around the time that Antiochus Epiphanes came into power, the High Priest Onias [father of Onias] had died and Jason took over.
Antiochus Epiphanes began his reign in 175 B.C. and took Jerusalem in 168 B.C. which would six years and some days, right? Not only that, you would have to take some time from the frame to make up for the time it took Jason time to get into office of High Priest and mislead the Jewish people. Yep, I think that sounds about right.

 

[Barraco]

Daniel 8: 15. And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

Daniel, was told by Gabriel, himself about the time of the vision and the answer was not ‘70AD.’
The angel came real close to Daniel, to make the point.
Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: for AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

The TIME OF THE END is such a vague point actually. The time of the end could be the end of anything really. Do you really think Daniel was concerned about the antichirst? No, he wanted to know what was going to happen to his people, the JEWISH PEOPLE. What the END is was the end old covenant, old kingship, and old preisthood. Read Hebrews for more detail. Let me explain more though: After this event, the line of Zerubabel was cut off. After this event, there were no more sacrifices in the temple. As a result, the old priesthood was no longer useful. Thus was the end of the old covenant and the intermission to the new covenant.

To make sure Daniel the Prophet and therefore everyone reading Daniel 8: gets that message Gabriel, repeated the intent in even clearer terms.

Dan 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I WILL MAKE THEE KNOW WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END of the indignation: FOR THE TIME APPOINTED THE END.

The LAST END was not 70AD.

I agree. But you already know my stand point. But notice that Gabriel didn't say the end of the world, or the end of Gentile Kingdoms, or the end of days; he just said the Time Appointed The End.

Barraco quote.
“We can tell that by counting back in the description of the beast and notice that its the reverse order of the beasts described in Daniel 7, which shows which state it is in.” Unquote

I agree that Rev 13: 2. does show the Lion. Beast one. The Bear, beast two, and the leopard beast three supporting the fourth Beast power. That is managed by the fallen angel with the mortal wound, who is given power for 42 months by Satan Yes I agree the lion, bear, and leopard have fallen away into total apostasy.

I was saying nothing near to that. No where in the Bible does it say that the mouth of the beast is a fallen angel. Daniel 7 makes it quite clear that he is a man. The beasts are kingdoms. The lion was Babylon. The bear was Persia. The leopard was Greece. And the fourth one was Rome. The reason the animal are described in Revelation 13 is to identify the beast as not only Rome, but the entire history of Gentile World Rule since Babylon.

Barraco quote.
“But we also know that all the beasts of Daniel 7 are one big beast as described in Daniel 2 by showing the statue with the different metals representing Gentile World Kingdoms.” Unquote.”

The gold, being the Babylonian empire and the silver, being the Medo/Persian empire and the brass, being the Greek empire and finally the iron, being the Roman empire, is correct but the Bible, does not say that those empires have a relationship to the beast powers. Not one verse can be used to do that.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that let alone in Daniel 2: or chapter 7 of Daniel.

You are correct. I wasn't saying that they have a relationship to each other, I was trying to emply that they stand for one unique purpose in common; that is to rule over God's dominion and people until Christ comes back, which represents the rock carved with out hands striking the image and it falls and breaks to pieces. Then the rock grows into a huge mountain; representing the kingdom of Christ.

The problem with the last suggestion of the beasts in Daniel 7: as being past empires is that the lion, bear, leopard ARE AROUND AT THE SAME TIME, around TOGETHER then ALL THREE are joined into the fourth beast power, run by the fallen angel with the mortal wound for only forty two months, that is when Jesus sets up His everlasting kingdom and yes the fourth beast is killed first in Rev 19: 19 - 20.

Again, the fallen angel part is off topic. At the time Daniel recieved his vision, There were Babylonians, Persians, and Greeks. So they were around at the sime time. What kingdom came later was unseen, and that was the Romans. The seven heads to the beast represent the seven kingdoms: Babylon, Perisa, the four kingdoms of Greece, and Rome. The kingdom of Rome recieved its deadly wound when it fell in A.D. 476, and did not become recognized as a Roman Empire again until 324 years later when the Eastern Emperor recognized Charlamagne as an Augustus of the Holy Roman Empire a while after his coronation as imperator Augustus by the Pope.

He is killed before the 1st lion beast and the 2nd bear beast and 3rd leopard beast’s time has run out . After which all three are left waiting a’ time and season’ in Rev 19: 21. Then after which they are killed with the sword in Rev 19: 21. None of the past empires were around together for the time when Jesus is to set up His kingdom but the lion. Bear and leopard are.

The lion, bear, and leopard represent the nations of Gog and Magog that turn against Christ after his 1,000 year rule. Observe Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 14, and Revelation 20.

Also you forget that the fourth beast empire only has 42 months to rule.

I remember that ON TOP of what it has ruled already, it is give 42 months to CONTINUE.

Yet the historic empires depicted in there correct order of rising and falling,
Is as follows and indicated on the empire metal time statue. Which is nothing like the order of things for the lion. Bear, leopard and the fourth beats power, depicted in Daniel 7: or Revelation.19:
The Babylonian empire rises 608 BC?
Then fades into history. 539 BC?

The Medo/Persian empire rises. 539 BC?
Then fades into history. 331 BC?

The Greek empire rises. 331BC?
Then fades into history. 146 BC?

Then the Roman empire rises. 146 BC?
Then fades into history. 476 AD?
There they are all spread out just like the metals down the time statue.

Yet the BEASTS are around at THE SAME TIME where the fourth beast empire is killed off BEFORE the three preceding beasts and just before the everlasting kingdom is set up.
So how can it be that the Roman empire is killed off before the preceding metal empires of gold. Silver and brass?
For that reason alone I can’t see the beasts as representative of past empires, it does not blend biblically, factually or historically.

Actually it does. The other beast kept their lives. How is that? If you notice the great battle in Revelation 19, the beast as of current, Rome, is completely eradicated and the land desolated. However, the other kingdoms [territories] keep their prosperity but their power is taken away from them to govern themselves. That means Iraq, Iran, and Greece will no longer rule themselves as they do today. Also notice that Rome did not conquer all of the other kingdoms. It didn't conquer Babylon or Persia, and it also split between Greek and Latin before it fell, leaving the Greek kingdom still standing. Thus all the previous kingdoms did keep their lives. These kingdom were later shaped and changed through wars to become what they are today. Nothing says that they have to still be world kingdoms.

The time spans of Daniel 7: and Revelation 13; 5. Won’t let the historic explanation stand biblically and I am going to use a lot more Bible to show more proof of that fact. That suggestion that the beasts are in any way related with past empires is unsound.

"Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever and ever." -Daniel 7:17-18
Notice HERE, it says that those four kings make up ONE kingdom. Lets go over those verses again. Those four great beasts are four kingdoms which come from the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall recieve the KINGDOM [not kingdoms] and possess the KINGDOM [not kingdoms] forever and ever. Thus these four kingdoms make up one kingdom. Take that idea and compare it to the image of Daniel 2 and you will see that the lion is the head of Gold, Babylon. But Daniel doesn't call the head of Gold Babylon, he calls it Nebuchadnezzar; who ruled Babylon and formed its empire. Thus the four kings are those which founded their empires.

Barraco quote.
“The beasts: Leopard, Bear, Lion. Its reversed from Daniel 7.
The heads: Babylon, Persia, the four kingdoms of greece, and Rome.
So, the heads are just the kingdoms that have ruled since God gave power to Babylon to take Jerusalem and exile His people.
It said that one of the head's were wounded, but miraculously healed. If you recall Revelation 17, a head represents a king as well as a kingdom. So the mortal wound would have been the dethronement of the proper king over his kingdom. This happened to the Roman empire in A.D. 476 when Romulus Augustus was dethroned by the Heruli mercenary Odoacer. This stopped the rule of Caesar over the West.
Afterward, many kingdoms began to start forming in the West, which are represented by the ten horns with ten crowns.
The mortal wound was healed in A.D. 800 when Charlamagne was crowned 'imperator Augustus' over the 'Holy Roman Empire' after conquering all of Gaul. Thus was the wound healed and Roman imperialism continued. So the wound was the dethronement of Augustus to the enthronement of Augustus.
That's that in a nut shell! God bless”

Charlemagne (c.742-814), Frankish king and Emperor of the West (Holy Roman Empire) (800-14). That’s 14 years rule, that is far too long.

far too long for what?

The beast with the mortal wound is a created being. He is thrown into the burning lake of fire with the False prophet by the KING OF KINGS. See Rev 19: 20.

Yeah, no. The beast is a kingdom first, then a set of kingdoms, then a kingdom again. Also there is another beast described in Revelations; the beast from the Abyss, which isn't the same beast as the beast from the earth. Thus, the beast from the Abyss is the beast destroyed by Christ. The mouth of the beast becomes the false prophet after the fall of the beast.

The fellow you speak of was around in power longer than 42 months of the fourth beast power. See Rev 13: 5.

actually he wasn't. The forty-two months are 1260 years. Its symbolic.

Also the lion, bear, and leopard, are to be slain at the same time Rev 19: 21.

Thats not what Daniel 7 says: "I watched then because of the great things which teh horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had thier dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time."
-Daniel 7:11-12

None of your ideas fit within the specified time span of 2300 ereb/evening, boqer/morning spoken of by the angel Gabriel, to the Prophet Daniel.

You mean none of my ideas fit your preconceptions...am I correct?

If you wish to check out the time span of the 2300 ereb boqer chezev/visions, go to Geneses 1: creation week and the word ereb/evening and boqer/morning are used in that first week which cannot be translated to mean years.

You are correct. The fact that evenings and mornings are mentioned is to stop one from interpreting them as years. But as you see, I have already described what time span was covered by the 2300 evenings and mornings.

Look I will do it for you. Geneses 1: 5. “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the (6153)ereb/evening and the (1242)boqer/morning were the first day.
This term is used for all the days.
Gen 1: 19. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Thanks, that is actually useful information.

One other thing is the beast is a created being. Re 19: 20 says ‘These BOTH WERE CAST ALIVE into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.’ The beast is not the Roman empire he is thrown into the burning lake of fire ‘ALIVE’ with the False prophet by the KING OF KINGS.

Alive. Ever seen Frankenstein? Where the doctor makes a dead guy animate and calls him alive? The thing wasn't alive, but was animate. Things that move can appear to be alive. Things that function, such as a battery or a computer can be thought of as alive. Why should it be any different for a kingdom that is actively warring against Christ?

Now all I have done is use the Bible, fairly extensively and backed up the same time spans and events linked with the same persons involved with other verses for verification. If you do not agree then use the same verses and give your explanation of them verse by verse.

Thankyou for your time and I look forward to reaching an agreement, apart from my own bias. You have the energy and want to know the truth and thus I want to put in the energy and want to find it with you. God bless

~Matthew

 

[Barraco]

I also think that it is interesting that the places where the beast will mark are the same place where God tells the Israelites to mark as signs of his commandments.

Deut. 6:8
Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead.

I think that the symbology though here needs to be understood. While these areas could very well be physical, they are metephor. The hand denotes action, the forehead thoughts. There is possibility that mark itself may not be physical.

 

[Barraco]

and
(that darn Scripture interpreting Scripture again...)

right on

 

[NumberOneSon]

The views are merely just guidelines set up by man.

Exactly - same with historicism. None of us are apostles, so all we can do is come up with views based on how we interpret scriptures. Historcism, preterism, futurism - all eschatological views are guidelines set up by men because we aren't inspired.

I think we should let things be instead of forcing them.

Which is exactly the main complaint I've had against historicism, like with the "10 Kingdoms" interpretation we discussed a couple months ago. You can't get any more forced than that, in my opinion.

Has Christ come yet? No, so the preterist view is skewed.

You're talking full preterism. I'm an Orthodox preterist.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[brother daniel]

Exactly - same with historicism. None of us are apostles, so all we can do is come up with views based on how we interpret scriptures. Historcism, preterism, futurism - all eschatological views are guidelines set up by men because we aren't inspired.

I can agree that you are not inspired, but you cannot truthfully speak for the rest of us.

The Holy Ghost is a promised gift to those who obey Christ.

I study prophesy and eschatology for one purpose and that is the edification of the brethren concerning what is happening today and what is to come.

As I have mentioned before it is my understanding, that the wounded head of the beast and the little horn is Zionist state of Israel.

Eze 21:25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity [shall have] an end,

What I am expecting is a, Christian Israelite with a genealogy traced to the house of David to become enforcing head the worlds nuclear powered armies with his headquarters in Jerusalem.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[NumberOneSon]

I can agree that you are not inspired, but you cannot truthfully speak for the rest of us.

I believe I can. You are not an Apostle, nor have you penned scripture, nor has anyone else who has lived over the past 1900 years. There have not been any Apostles or scripture writers since the 1st Century, so yes, I do believe I can safely speak for the rest of us.

The Holy Ghost is a promised gift to those who obey Christ.

Having the Holy Ghost or manifesting the Gifts of the Spirit does not make you inspired. I'm not saying God hasn't spoken or worked through people since the 1st Century, I'm simply saying that no one has had the authority or the office of the Apostles since the death of the last Apostle.

In Christ,

Act6:5

 

[Barraco]

Exactly - same with historicism. None of us are apostles, so all we can do is come up with views based on how we interpret scriptures. Historcism, preterism, futurism - all eschatological views are guidelines set up by men because we aren't inspired.


Which is exactly the main complaint I've had against historicism, like with the "10 Kingdoms" interpretation we discussed a couple months ago. You can't get any more forced than that, in my opinion.


You're talking full preterism. I'm an Orthodox preterist.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Not neccessarily. Daniel 7 shows that 10 kingdoms would come out of the Roman Empire after it fell when it says, "The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom and another shall rise afterm; he shall be different from the first ones, and shall subdue three kings." We understand these kings to be kingdoms, for kings head kingdoms. Daniel 2 shows that the kingdom of Iron Legs would transition into the feet with ten toes, and the Christ would set up his kingdom in the days of those ten toes. This shows that the Roman Empire would divide into ten kingdoms. How would this be though? Wouldn't that be the end of the Roman Empire? Revelation fills us in and shows that the wound would be healed and the Roman Empire restored, and it was my the reunification of those remaining kingdoms into one kingdom that made the wound healed the Western Roman Empire once more. This is not forced, it consequential. Of ten of those kingdoms, three fell before the West was reunited: The Vandals, who sacked Rome in 410; the kingdom of Odoacer, who took Rome in 476, and the Ostrogoths who took Rome from Odoacer. This is all proven fact.

It shows quite clearly that when the Roman Empire was to fall, it would divide into ten kingdoms. The Roman Empire fell in A.D. 476 and hasn't been the same since. Even the Holy Roman Empire was slightly different in policy and belief. Prophecy was fulfilled. Historicism isn't about looking in the past and forcing fulfillments, its about observing the obvious fulfillments of such prophecies. That is why historicists take both views that much has happened, and much is still to happen. God bless

 

[brother daniel]

I believe I can. You are not an Apostle, nor have you penned scripture, nor has anyone else who has lived over the past 1900 years. There have not been any Apostles or scripture writers since the 1st Century, so yes, I do believe I can safely speak for the rest of us.

Having the Holy Ghost or manifesting the Gifts of the Spirit does not make you inspired. I'm not saying God hasn't spoken or worked through people since the 1st Century, I'm simply saying that no one has had the authority or the office of the Apostles since the death of the last Apostle.

In Christ,

Act6:5

The issue on this thread is not apostles.
Its "the healed head of the Beast.

It is my prayerful assertion that the Healed head of the Beast, is the Socialist Zionist state of Israel, backed by the Rothschild family for their personal financial and political gain.

The Rothschild family is the largest holder of private capitol in the world. They make money from every war, supplying all sides and being payed by the winner.

Its important to see the beast of Daniel and Revelation as a chain of intermarried merchant stretching from Egypt, to the present through the marriage of king Solomon to the Pharaohs daughter.

Its this corporate merchant system that in-slaves all the people of earth who fear death.

Time line of Rothschilds
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...disraeli+Rothschild&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=15

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Barraco]

The issue on this thread is not apostles.
Its "the healed head of the Beast.

It is my prayerful assertion that the Healed head of the Beast, is the Socialist Zionist state of Israel, backed by the Rothschild family for their personal financial and political gain.

The Rothschild family is the largest holder of private capitol in the world. They make money from every war, supplying all sides and being payed by the winner.

Its important to see the beast of Daniel and Revelation as a chain of intermarried merchant stretching from Egypt, to the present through the marriage of king Solomon to the Pharaohs daughter.

Its this corporate merchant system that in-slaves all the people of earth who fear death.

Time line of Rothschilds
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...disraeli+Rothschild&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=15

With love in Christ
brother daniel

but how far into it should one go? Wouldn't it had been obvious to the second century readers or hearers?

 

[brother daniel]

but how far into it should one go? Wouldn't it had been obvious to the second century readers or hearers?

Here is what was obvious to the early church fathers.

http://biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

I think we today underestimate what is expected of a disciple/Christian.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Barraco]

Here is what was obvious to the early church fathers.

http://biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

I think we today underestimate what is expected of a disciple/Christian.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Very interesting. It appears that many of the earlier Church fathers agreed that the Roman Empire was he that held down the lawless one from being revealed. I would take a different course, having looked over all the information.

I observed the Greek translation, and found that St. Augustine translated the word that we use as 'restraining' to mean 'holding' or 'holding down; or holding firmly.'

The Greek word is "katecho" which means to hold down; hold fast; hold firmly. It would appear that lawlessness was what was being held down if you put this in context, which couldn't have been the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was the epidemy of what was lawless; for though it had order, it had no morals. That would be lawlessness in Paul's context.

The falling away was to happen first so that people would give up on Christ and seek the lawless one. For in Christ is the law fulfilled, and outside of Him is insufficiency and lawlessness.

Then the restrainer was to be taken out of the way. The manner in which Paul used in present tense, 'RESTRAINING,' shows that the restrainer was present. Now, I read over some of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians and found that Paul had sent Timothy to them to tend to them and keep them in the doctrine of truth, which holds us to Christ; the fulfillment of the law.

Observe the pattern:

Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, and that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know. For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain. 1 Thessalonians 3:1-5

If you notice the above passages, Paul had sent Timothy to be sure that the Thessalonians had not been shaken out of faith by the persecutions that were coming upon them. He said that they had known that the apostles were appointed for persecution. When that happened, it became difficult for the apostles to tend to the Church in Thessalonica. For that reason, Timothy was sent to encourage the Thessalonians. Now what was it that Timothy was instructed to do? Observe:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith (apostasy,) giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.
- 1 Timothy 4:1-6

Here Paul shows that people will fall from faith, being decieved by convincing but false doctrines and forsake things that are sacred to God. Paul encourages Timothy to teach the doctrine of truth. On many occasions in the two letters written to Timothy, Paul stresses that Timothy not give in to profane and vain babblings, but to rightly divide the word of truth.

So what appears to be taken out of the way by the apostasy is the teacher of true doctrine.

This encourages us to look deeper into the matter; not in an eschatological way, but in regards to the Gospel. So I encourage everyone to put aside their eschatological preconceptions before I go on, for that would benefit their eschatological interpretations in the long run.

God bless

 

[Barraco]

If you notice, Paul doesn't make open attacks against the Roman Empire, Caesar, or any politician; perhaps lest in any case the readers or listeners might be stirred to rebellion and bring unneeded suffering upon themselves.

Paul isn't concerned with the order of the kingdom of Rome as it appears from his writings. What it seems that Paul is concerned about is the faith and salvation of the Churches amidst persecution and attacks from false teachers.

But the false teachers were restrained from spreading their lawlessness like cancer by the word of truth. He who taught the word of truth restrained that work of iniquity from becoming a common practice in the Church.

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as if is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds towards each others, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure.

-2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

What it appears that is a problem is that persecution is causing hardship on the Thessalonian Church, during which they have held fast through. Also, false teachers came among them with vain babblings and false teachings. One of the false teachings was that the day of the Lord had come, and encouraged them to quit their jobs and await their gathering unto the immediately coming Lord as it was supposed.

If you notice the key point that Paul is writing to the Thessalonians is to maintain the faith and good works until the Lord comes. For those that practice falsehood and iniquity would be destroyed at Christ's coming.

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10

We can plainly see that what Paul is concerned about is the faith of the Thessalonian Church amidst the persecution and false teachings. The truth was the key. If the Thessalonians had someone who had the truth from a bishop such as Timothy, then the persecution would not cause them to fall for false teachings or lose faith.

What is restraining the lawlessness is he who teaches the truth, and that lawlessness was to be restrained until those who taught the truth were taken out of the way by the persecution. I would like to touch on the Greek interpretation, seeing that it would help. Where it says that he is taken out of the way, the Greek translation reads "until from the middle he might become." Which seems to imply that he be taken from the midst of the people. Thus is the interpretation of these words, "Until he is taken out of the way."

Through persecution, those holding fast to the faith and truth would be killed and those that didn't die either hid or denied their faith. Those that denied their faith happened to take the place of those who didn't within the Church after the persecution and thus the way for the lawlessness one was opened up. This has happened, and Paul was right on the money about what would happen. Those that hid during the persecution of A.D. 250 fled the Church after the persecution due to the corruption of teachings that happened to get the apostates back to the priesthood. Again this happened after the Diocletian persecution of 303-313, and thus were left some Churches, including Rome, that had corrupted their teachings.

However, the early Church fathers were right on the money about the ten kingdoms coming after the fall of Rome and how an insignificant man would take the kingdom through craftiness, even forging letters from previous letters that would secure the kingdom in obedience and alliance to him. This has happened as well.

God bless