The great divide...

[Kenny'sID]

I trust you realize that was a non-answer.

Just as yours was.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31,

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts of the Apostles 16:31).

This is talking about Initial Salvation. It says, "You shall be saved." They were not saved already and living out the faith. They were asking how to be saved. They told them to believe on Jesus. But believing on Jesus includes not only believing in the person of Jesus but in His teachings, too. We have to obey what Jesus commanded us. If not, then we are not truly believing in Him but we are believing in a Jesus of our own imagining. For Jesus also said that we have to abide in Him and His words to have life.

Here is the full version:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

Jesus warned us of many sins that can destroy our souls like looking upon a woman in lust (Matthew 5:28-30), un-forgiveness (Matthew 6:15), our words (Matthew 12:37), not helping the poor (Matthew 25:31-46), etc.

Acts of the Apostles 15:8-11,

The yoke of bondage is "Circumcision Salvationism" and in going back to the Law of Moses as if that was the whole contract we follow (When in reality it is the New Testament contract that we follow).

Here is the Context that talks about that:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”...........................................................................................................................................................
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Romans 10:9,

In Romans 10:9, the context of confessing Jesus with your mouth and believing with your heart that God has raised him from the dead and you shall be saved is in reference to Paul's desire for Israel to be saved.

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1).

This is not talking about continued salvation or the Sanctification process which is a part of the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation through two things.

#1. Belief of the truth, and
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit.

Besides, Romans 11:21-22 says,
21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

So we have to continue in his goodness (righteousness), otherwise we can be cut off like the Jews.

Ephesians 2:8,

Ephesians 2 is talking about "Initial Salvation."
Verse 1 talks about how Christ quickened us.
This quickening is a one time event.
Paul talks about our old life of sin in Ephesians 2:2-3.
Paul was trying to refute “Works Alone Salvationism” by saying that we are not saved by works.
For Paul says in another place that if you live after the flesh you will die, and if you put to death the deeds of the body (sin) you shall live in Romans 8:13. Paul says that we can deny God by a lack of works in Titus 1:16. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12).

"by faith" throughout the book of Hebrews, how much else do you want...?

God Bless!

In Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.
Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What am I supposed to say, "Sorry God" to you, not going to happen, and even if that was an error or typo, I still wonder why you made it in the first place if it was a mistake or typo or error...

Is something in you trying to speak to me, without your knowledge apparently, and, if so, what is that something...?

God Bless!

Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Please try to address what I actually say please. Thank you.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Just as yours was.

I asked for scripture. You gave me your personal opinion. And since your opinion is not scripture, your reply was a non-answer.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Narrow is the way to life and broad is the way to destruction.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How so...?

Do you mean the idea that one can be sinlessly perfect...? or sinless, or perfect...? Or what...?

Or only declared perfect somehow in the Lord in spite of sin or sinning sometimes...? or what...? And if that, how does that work, or what does that look like...?

God Bless!

The evidence of a genuine and sound conversion to Christ is to commit your whole life, activities, possessions, relationships, dreams and ambitions to Him, to do His will and not your own. It is to see yourself as a lost sinner, deserving condemnation, your own righteousness being as filthy rags before God, therefore we give up trusting in our own righteousnessness, our own prayers, going to church, living a moral life, listening to our favourite preachers. These will not save us, although they should not be neglected. We need to take Christ as our Patron and Portion, our Saviour and our Lord. Jesus saves us from our sins, not in them. If we say we are receiving Christ and yet hold on to our favourite sins, we don't have Christ at all. We cannot hold on to our sins and have Christ at the same time. And it is the sins we love and enjoy the most that are the ones to repent of. We need to receive the Holy Spirit into our lives to give us the ability to destroy sin of its power over us. The flesh will always war against the Spirit, and we must always resist temptation at all times. We must hate sin, and hate the sin in ourselves. The Scripture says that we have the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead. Therefore, we hate ourselves for the sin that is in us, and we put our love upon Christ. We mourn because we find it so difficult to win sometimes in our fight against the flesh, but we never give up the battle and surrender to sin. We will always be in a battle with sin until we get to glory, but we have the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus to fight for us as we put our full trust and hopes in Him.

If we accept and retain just one little sin, it could be the undoing of us, and might expose our conversion as false and unsound. If we are to enter fully into the grace of God and receive His mercy, we must adopt His attitude to sin, especially sin in ourselves. If we are to embrace Christ, we must embrace holiness as well, because without holiness we will never see God. It is not sufficient just to do enough to keep us out of hell and into heaven. If that is the motive, then the conversion is not complete. We must chose Christ for Himself and love Him for what He has done for us on the cross, and we must choose holiness for its own sake, because it is the best way to live for Christ.

A true convert has Christ as his whole desire, Christ as His Lord above all others, Christ as his righteousness. He grieves and mourns over his shortcomings and faults, that he cannot be as holy in his flesh as he wants to be. He has given Christ his whole heart, and there is nothing sinful hidden from Christ, even the smallest bit of pride, envy, resentment or lust. In his fight against sin, he is bloodied but unbowed; he is wounded but not fallen and bears the scars of his conflicts with sin and Satan. His life is not his own, and he puts Christ above everything in the world. If he tries to have Christ and the world, then he misses out on Christ, because he can serve only one master.

Therefore the answer to the question about grace and sin is for every professing Christian to make their calling and election sure, that their conversion is real and genuine. There will be many who are trusting that they are okay and they will get to heaven, but they may get right to the doors and find the door shut against them, because they were not diligent enough in searching their hearts to see if they are truly in the faith.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I asked for scripture. You gave me your personal opinion. And since your opinion is not scripture, your reply was a non-answer.

Ditto, ditto, and ditto.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is not sin that separates us from God, it is the ignorance of not knowing that sin keeps us from "the walk". When you are truly saved, your sin will be like a milestone. This is what the Holy Spirit shows us as we are sanctified during our very difficult walk with our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).


“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).


5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God's children are born into sin just as fish are born wet.
None are dry, no not one.

It's no one person's fault they are born into sin.
The trick is to look forward to being dry some day.

When you read Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 as applying to the present life of the believer, does that mean the believer is also without any understanding and they do not seek after God according to Romans 3:11?

As for your false assumption that we look forward to obeying God (being dry) one day (implying that we can only obey in God's Kingdom after we are dead):

The Bible says,

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved,
let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; " (Titus 2:11-12).

 

[Kenny'sID]

I trust you realize that was a non-answer.

"Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." (John 9:31).

Does God hear you? Meaning of course, you are not a sinner if he does...correct?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where in scripture does it state Judas was ever saved?

Jesus called Judas (who is one of the twelve He sent forth) as one of his sheep.

Matthew 10:5 says,
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ..."

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16).​

Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus whereby Jesus once trusted him.

“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” (Psalms 41:9).
​

Jesus told us that Psalms 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ (John 13:8).​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does God hear you? Meaning of course, you are not a sinner if he does...correct?

Well, John 9:31 is talking about unrepentant sinners. Jesus says he calls sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32). It is the will of God for men to repent because He commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To repent is to seek forgiveness of one's sins with God which is naturally followed by the fruits of repentance (obedience to His commands). Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Also see 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Matthew 12:41 cf. with Jonah 3:6-10).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The evidence of a genuine and sound conversion to Christ is to commit your whole life, activities, possessions, relationships, dreams and ambitions to Him, to do His will and not your own. It is to see yourself as a lost sinner, deserving condemnation, your own righteousness being as filthy rags before God, therefore we give up trusting in our own righteousnessness, our own prayers, going to church, living a moral life, listening to our favourite preachers. These will not save us, although they should not be neglected. We need to take Christ as our Patron and Portion, our Saviour and our Lord. Jesus saves us from our sins, not in them. If we say we are receiving Christ and yet hold on to our favourite sins, we don't have Christ at all. We cannot hold on to our sins and have Christ at the same time. And it is the sins we love and enjoy the most that are the ones to repent of. We need to receive the Holy Spirit into our lives to give us the ability to destroy sin of its power over us. The flesh will always war against the Spirit, and we must always resist temptation at all times. We must hate sin, and hate the sin in ourselves. The Scripture says that we have the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead. Therefore, we hate ourselves for the sin that is in us, and we put our love upon Christ. We mourn because we find it so difficult to win sometimes in our fight against the flesh, but we never give up the battle and surrender to sin. We will always be in a battle with sin until we get to glory, but we have the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus to fight for us as we put our full trust and hopes in Him.

If we accept and retain just one little sin, it could be the undoing of us, and might expose our conversion as false and unsound. If we are to enter fully into the grace of God and receive His mercy, we must adopt His attitude to sin, especially sin in ourselves. If we are to embrace Christ, we must embrace holiness as well, because without holiness we will never see God. It is not sufficient just to do enough to keep us out of hell and into heaven. If that is the motive, then the conversion is not complete. We must chose Christ for Himself and love Him for what He has done for us on the cross, and we must choose holiness for its own sake, because it is the best way to live for Christ.

A true convert has Christ as his whole desire, Christ as His Lord above all others, Christ as his righteousness. He grieves and mourns over his shortcomings and faults, that he cannot be as holy in his flesh as he wants to be. He has given Christ his whole heart, and there is nothing sinful hidden from Christ, even the smallest bit of pride, envy, resentment or lust. In his fight against sin, he is bloodied but unbowed; he is wounded but not fallen and bears the scars of his conflicts with sin and Satan. His life is not his own, and he puts Christ above everything in the world. If he tries to have Christ and the world, then he misses out on Christ, because he can serve only one master.

Therefore the answer to the question about grace and sin is for every professing Christian to make their calling and election sure, that their conversion is real and genuine. There will be many who are trusting that they are okay and they will get to heaven, but they may get right to the doors and find the door shut against them, because they were not diligent enough in searching their hearts to see if they are truly in the faith.

We can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). That person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).

If we are justifying sin (on some level) and thinking we are saved, we are not going to make it (For Jesus warned us about how certain sins can destroy our soul: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46). Obedience to God's commands is a part of eternal life (Matthew 19:17-19, Luke 10:25-28).

Even believing on Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23).

1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ. Seeing Christ never justified sin, we cannot justify sin, either.

Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. 1 John 1:7 says a similar thing but it uses different words.

Obedience to the faith is proof that our faith in Christ is genuine.
For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

 

[Oldmantook]

What if one feels their sin that they are currently in and or are struggling with, is not willful or deliberate...?

I'm unsure how someone can be cognizant of his sin which he struggles with and yet not be willful or deliberate if they commit it. For example, if I realize that I have a problem with inappropriate contentography, I have the choice whether to yield to my flesh or yield to the Spirit. I can willfully choose to sin or not sin. Perhaps I don't understand your question.

And does repentance mean "all of it" in this world without ever messing up after that ever...? Is that possible...?

We can only repent of our present sins. We cannot repent of future sins that we have not yet committed. And we will "mess up" again because no one is without sin. However the goal is still sanctification.

And if one is not aware of the sin they do or are doing, then have they "even started" their walk or journey with God yet, since they still need to be led to repentance...?

I think your question exposes a critical weakness in the way that the gospel message is preached today. The emphasis is on belief only and saying a "sinner's prayer" which buys a person a one-way ticket to heaven. When one comes to faith in Christ, he/she should be made aware that the blood of Jesus is the propitiation for his/her PAST sins. Thus one needs to confess whatever sins he/she is aware of when he/she comes to Christ. I don't mean to say that one has to confess all known sins committed in the past but at least acknowledge that God's grace via the blood of Jesus now results in forgiveness of one's past sins. Rom 3:24-25 states:
24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
In leading someone to Christ emphasis should be given to repenting of one's sins up to the point that one is born again. If this is done, the new convert understands that confession is a way of life upon becoming a believer and his Christian walk thereafter should reflect that. A repentant lifestyle in obedience to God is the mark of a genuine Christian. I don't know about anyone else, but I see little emphasis on that in today's Western church.

 

[SkyWriting]

When you read Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 as applying to the present life of the believer, does that mean the believer is also without any understanding and they do not seek after God according to Romans 3:11?

As for your false assumption that we look forward to obeying God (being dry) one day (implying that we can only obey in God's Kingdom after we are dead):

The Bible says,

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved,
let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; " (Titus 2:11-12).

We look forward to being in God's Kingdom after this life.
Here: none are righteous, no not one.

When you are in the Kingdom, you won't have any errors to correct
with what others say. You can look forward to that life of leisure.

 

[Vicomte13]

Dupe

 

[Vicomte13]

Duplicate post.

 

[Vicomte13]

How do we do that...? With so many differences of opinion, isn't it important for us to be wholly unified and in agreement on some basics at least...? and if so, what are those basics...?

So that we can break bread together, share a cup together, ect...?

This "divide" (and other divides) is/are not helping with that, that much I know...

God Bless!

We do it by doing it. It is not important for us to be wholly unified and in agreement on some basics. Nature forces us into unity on basics: we've all gotta eat, sleep, pee and poo, and fulfilling those needs alone occupies about 85% of all human activity on earth. Everybody knows everybody else at the most important and fundamental levels. What people think inside of their minds is so personal and malleable that if unity has to be based on that, you will have no unity.

You can break bread and share a cup with your fiercest enemies, if they're willing to do it.

The "divide" of which you speak is based on the earnest desire of people to be affirmed that THEIR religious belief is TRUE. God doesn't reach down and tell them "Yup!", so they look for affirmation from their fellow men. They don't get it, because everybody's mind is different.

There's a great example of this right from this board. A disgruntled anti-Catholic bigot got disgusted with the Catholics on Christian Forums, a place where he has had to encounter us and face the fact that our practical approach to God is totally different from his own. So he launched a whole website that he called REALChristianforums, and he populated the website with a whole set of folders on a great series of topics. He made access to and membership in the board dependent on the individual's belief in exactly the same things that he believes - that they be REAL Christians, as he defined it (and his definition would exclude the 90% of Christians worldwide who are Catholic or Orthodox, and other Christians as well - REAL Christians are those who believe like him). His writing is very earnest and passionate. I went over there a couple of times and looked. He had two or three people sniff around, but there it sat, open for business, a veritable electronic cathedral offering unity on a wide variety of very specific ideas.

The lights are on, the doors are open: nobody's interested. I tried to go look at it this morning, but the filters in this computer blocked it, so apparently the degree of insistence on his doctrines has triggered some "hate detector".

My point is not to beat up on him. I truth, I feel a great deal of sorrow and compassion for that man. Blazing with his belief in God, he set out to offer like-minded people a safe haven where they could do what we're talking about: talk and break bread and share drink (figuratively) in peace, secure in the knowledge that they all believe the same thing. He went to the trouble of earnestly preparing a website and opening its doors. And nobody came.

That's what will happen if you insist on unity about ANYTHING as a PREREQUISITE to sitting down at the table with you. Some people might come - and you will find them uninteresting and dull. They agree with you on everything, why bother to talk? The interesting people who could challenge you and expand your knowledge won't come, which means you lose.

Truth is, people who are interested enough in religion to be on this website reading and writing have ALREADY cleared the bar of "necessary commonality" to break bread and share a drink with. Anybody who insists on MORE, on GREATER unity on various issues, in order to sit down to talk and share a meal, is invariably himself a rather dull, stubborn, narrow-minded thinker who is too boring for me to want to share a meal with him.

Basically, if you want to talk to people, if you put up a big barrier that says "I don't want to talk to people who don't think THIS..." then even people who think just exactly THAT will stay away, because there are seven and a half billion people in the world, and you're neither interesting enough nor important enough for people to jump through hoops for the "privilege" of talking to you. You're not rich or powerful, and you don't have any special knowledge or treat you can give them that they can't get somewhere else. To insist that people have to conform to a certain belief set to have the privilege of sitting down at table with you is to assert that you want to eat alone.

That's the truth of it. Our basic humanity is all of the "unity" we need to be able to talk to each other. And the more universalist an organization or group or structure is, the more interesting, advanced and larger it is.

Put another way, any pre-condition somebody puts on talking to me will cause me to not want to talk to him, and that's his loss, not mine. Now multiply that by 7.5 billion, and you have a true assessment of the human condition.

But...But... No, really, just drop that "but" line. It doesn't work.​

 

[aiki]

Jesus called Judas (who is one of the twelve He sent forth) as one of his sheep.

Matthew 10:5 says,
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ..."

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16).
Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus whereby Jesus once trusted him.

“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” (Psalms 41:9).
Jesus told us that Psalms 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ (John 13:8).

Judas was never saved very obviously because he killed himself before Christ's atonement for sin was accomplished. He died pre-Calvary as the wicked betrayer of Jesus, as we all know. The idea that Judas was a true, born-again believer is just, well, nonsense.

Did Jesus call Judas one of his sheep? No. The verse offered above in support of such an assertion misreads (purposely, I think) the verse from Matthew 10:16. Jesus never says to Judas, or any of the twelve, in the instance of Matthew 10, "You are my sheep." He likens them to sheep in emphasis of their being harmless and in contrast to wolves that are not. And then Jesus reinforces the idea of the disciples being harmless by saying they ought to be "harmless as doves." At no time, though, does Jesus identify Judas in this passage as one of his sheep.

Judas was the "treasurer" for Jesus and the Twelve and so held a position of trust among them. Does this mean he was saved, a born-again child of God? Of course not. As I already pointed out, salvation, being spiritually regenerated by baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4; Titus 3:5-6), was only possible after Christ had died on the cross. Judas died the betrayer of Christ before Christ, through his own blood shed at Calvary, had made a way for the World to be reconciled to God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

It teaches that all sin is separation from God. If you continue sin knowingly, then your walk with Him is quenched, thus causing separation. Those who truly believe repent. Then there are those who sin unwillingly, who do not realize they are sinning for example, the Seventh-day Adventists teach that near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. Those who are not SDA probably believe they are sinning by teaching this however, to them it is not a sin. So you see it can be as simple as this which is why God reads all our hearts.
Blessings