The great divide...

[NW82]

Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 changes the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

You're over thinking it, and you're assuming a lot. The verse clearly states that if we believe we are without sin we deceive ourselves. Whether past, present, or future, we have/had sin in our lives.

 

[RaymondG]

You're over thinking it, and you're assuming a lot. The verse clearly states that if we believe we are without sin we deceive ourselves. Whether past, present, or future, we have/had sin in our lives.

The bible also cleary states this: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;"

And it seems to clearly talk unfavorably about those who cannot cease from sin here:
Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

The bible also clearly talks about those who use christ to be justified in their sin:
"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

How do you view these verses?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Jesus called Judas (who is one of the twelve He sent forth) as one of his sheep.

Matthew 10:5 says,
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ..."

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16).
Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus whereby Jesus once trusted him.

You're adding to scripture (and taking it out of context, but the adding to it part is enough to disqualify your assertion).

“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” (Psalms 41:9).
Jesus told us that Psalms 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ (John 13:8).

Neither of which state that Judas was ever saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're adding to scripture (and taking it out of context, but the adding to it part is enough to disqualify your assertion).

No. It's called you are not wanting to see what Scripture plainly says. Judas was one of the twelve and he was sent as a sheep among wolves. Also, these wolves were also refer to as lost sheep.

"But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:6).​

Lost sheep cannot be sent out to save lost sheep. That would not make any sense.
Scripture says what fellowship does light have with darkness? You also cannot betray someone unless you were once loyal to them.

"Then Judas, which betrayed him," (Matthew 26:25).

Judas was not already fallen when he met Jesus, Judas fell by his transgression.

"Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." (Acts of the Apostles 1:25).

Judas was called one of the children of the bride chamber.

14 "Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? " (Matthew 9:14-15).

Neither of which state that Judas was ever saved.

Sorry. You are simply refusing to not see it. Psalms 41:9 says he was a familiar friend to Jesus and that Jesus once trusted him. If Jesus trusted him, that means he was not once a devil and he was saved. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Luke 5:22).

 

[NW82]

The bible also cleary states this: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;"

And it seems to clearly talk unfavorably about those who cannot cease from sin here:
Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

The bible also clearly talks about those who use christ to be justified in their sin:
"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

How do you view these verses?

That we cannot go on living in sin. But presuming that we are so perfect that we cannot sin or stumble is, I think, a very dangerous paradigm. Christ is the only sinless man. While we should strive to be like Christ, we are not. Thinking you are equal to God is what Lucifer's problem was.

 

[Phil 1:21]

No. It's called you are not wanting to see what Scripture plainly says.

No, you literally added words to scripture (which I underlined for your convenience). I'm curious to see if you can make your case without changing scripture or engaging in eisegesis. So far, I'm not holding out much hope.

Sorry. You are simply refusing to not see it. Psalms 41:9 says he was a familiar friend to Jesus and that Jesus once trusted him. If Jesus trusted him, that means he was not once a devil and he was saved. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Luke 5:22).

Eigegesis in bold.

Perhaps you're forgetting (or choosing to ignore) that God knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Jesus knew of Judas' betrayal before he was even born.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're over thinking it, and you're assuming a lot. The verse clearly states that if we believe we are without sin we deceive ourselves. Whether past, present, or future, we have/had sin in our lives.

There is nothing here about future sin being forgiven you. It's why 1 John 1:9 says we are to confess our sins to be forgiven of sin. This means that only past sin can be forgiven you. Again, we both agree with 1 John 1:10 in what it says because we both agree that we have sinned in our old life before coming to Christ. So we both would not violate 1 John 1:10 that says "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."; For we both agree that we have sinned in the past. So this is a denial sins existence in the past.

In 1 John 2:26, we learn that John is writing to the brethren concerning certain individuals that are trying to seduce them. 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 are false beliefs from these individuals who are trying to seduce the brethren because they denied the existence of sin.

Again, you cannot believe 1 John 2:4 and yet also believe your interpretation on 1 John 1:8. If you are always in sin (by breaking God's commandments) as per 1 John 1:8 then you would be in violation of 1 John 2:4 that says that a person who says they know the Lord and does not keep his commandments (i.e. they sin), they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, you literally added words to scripture. I'm curious if you can make your case without changing scripture or engaging in eisegesis. So far, nope.

Well, just expressing your opinion without actually addressing the actual words in the verses in what they say does not make what you say true. Sorry, friend. You are just not wanting to see it because you don't want to see it. Besides, there are plenty of other verses in the Bible that show how others have fallen away. So you really cannot escape what the Bible plainly says.

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God by committing grievous sin and not seeking forgiveness over such a sin with the Lord). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)​

If that is not enough, here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

 

[Phil 1:21]

You are just not wanting to see it because you don't want to see it.

Or because it's not there, despite your eigegesis.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We look forward to being in God's Kingdom after this life.
Here: none are righteous, no not one.

When you are in the Kingdom, you won't have any errors to correct
with what others say. You can look forward to that life of leisure.

I don't think you are getting it. If you believe Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 are talking about the believer's present walk with God in how they are also always in sin like everyone else, then you MUST ALSO BELIEVE the attached verse of Romans 3:11 applies to the believer's present walk with God, too. Romans 3:11 says that one has no understanding and they do not seek after God. Are you saying believers do not have no understanding and they do not seek after God?

In other words, you cannot pluck verses (like Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23) out of their context to make your belief work here. You either believe all of it, or you don't.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It teaches that all sin is separation from God. If you continue sin knowingly, then your walk with Him is quenched, thus causing separation. Those who truly believe repent. Then there are those who sin unwillingly, who do not realize they are sinning for example, the Seventh-day Adventists teach that near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. Those who are not SDA probably believe they are sinning by teaching this however, to them it is not a sin. So you see it can be as simple as this which is why God reads all our hearts.
Blessings

How many acts of murder does it take to be a murderer according to Scripture?
It only takes one act of murder (See Numbers 35:16-18). 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So if a believer murders and they do not confess of that sin, they are not saved at the point they plan the murder and kill that person. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). Meaning: No confession of sin, and there is no forgiveness. David needed to confess of his sins in Psalms 51 to be forgiven. It's why he was crying out for forgiveness!

Ananais and Sapphira lied to the Holy Ghost (God) and they were instantly killed when they each made this transgression. A great fear came upon the church. It does not make any sense for the church to be in fear of God over believers who died saved and are in the comfort of Jesus and His Kingdom. This life is not our reward. Jesus is our reward. Jesus is our pearl of great price. To live is Christ and to die is gain. So if they were saved, the church would either feel sadness in the fact that they would miss them or they would feel comfort knowing they are with Jesus. But that didn't happen. They felt fear because they were condemned by their one time sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perhaps you're forgetting (or choosing to ignore) that God knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Jesus knew of Judas' betrayal before he was even born.

Sorry, that verse does not help you. I am 100% aware that God knows all future willed choices by all people. But God deals with people in real time, too (Which we can see in the story of Jonah). If a person at one time repents of their sins, they can have forgiveness. But if they later decide to not follow God, that is on them and they will not have forgiveness anymore. The Lord does not take away our free will after we accept Him.

In the story of Jonah, God pronounced Judgment that Nineveh was going to be destroyed soon by the prophet named Jonah. If they didn't repent, God was going to destroy them. But because the Ninevites repented (cried out to God) and they forsaken their evil ways (the fruits of repentance), God then acted in real time and changed His original plan of judgment that was to come upon them. God turned back His wrath that was coming to them. See Jonah 3:6-10.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Or because it's not there, despite your eigegesis.

I provided a smorgasbord of verses for you to check out that completely demolishes your belief. Please feel free to address any of those verses.

Note: Oh, and just throwing around the word eisgesis, etc. does not mean anything. You actually have to take the words in Scripture that I have presented and deal with them by explaining them in how they fit your belief.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That we cannot go on living in sin. But presuming that we are so perfect that we cannot sin or stumble is, I think, a very dangerous paradigm. Christ is the only sinless man. While we should strive to be like Christ, we are not. Thinking you are equal to God is what Lucifer's problem was.

Well, there is a huge difference in trying to take over God's position, and in being holy as God is holy as He commands of us.

The Bible says be ye holy, as I am holy (1 Peter 1:16).

Paul also says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
To justify sin is not to have the mind of Christ.

The Bible also teaches that you can overcome grievous sin (like: Lusting, lying, coveting, hating, etc.):

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John 5:19).​

Believe these verses and memorize them, and put them on the inside of your heart.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I provided a smorgasbord of verses for you to check out that completely demolishes your belief. Please feel free to address any of those verses.

I asked for verses supporting your contention that Judas was once saved. Your only attempt at addressing the actual question was to add words to one verse and eisegete a psalm. Your subsequent "smorgasboard" never mentioned Judas, and therefore was irrelevant.

Note: Oh, and just throwing around the word eisgesis, etc. does not mean anything.

When you add to scripture and interject your beliefs into verses instead of drawing the meaning out of them, it's a fitting description.

You actually have to take the words in Scripture that I have presented and deal with them by explaining them in how they fit your belief.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, which would be you.

 

[Neogaia777]

I provided a smorgasbord of verses for you to check out that completely demolishes your belief.

No, you only think you are doing that by your use of many words, when the truth is people are getting tired of trying to tell you and expose you to the real truth, which you don't want to hear anyway...

But, if you want to think by lengthy posts and by just throwing scripture out there (that you twist and misuse) that you are right or have proven or demolished anything, then be my guest... (God ahead and knock down that false doctrine of Christ's love, mercy and forgiveness and compassion, and his paying for it all for us, so we don't have to, ect)

Guess you'll have to talk to yourself and build and puff your own self up in your own mind then...

We have conflicting scripture on the issue of sin, and there are so very many, very many "factors" to be considered in someones sins or sinning that only a God, the God, can do it right and truly justly...

And this trying to say some sin is "less worse or more worse" than others, just so you can say your sin isn't that bad, if you even claim to have any sin at all (which you still have not answered yet) but this less and worse sin issue, so you can justify your own sin, come from nothing but a wicked, evil, sinful heart, with wicked, sinful, evil intentions and I'm not going to participate in it...

If a person is a less or worse sinner than another only God alone could really know or tell or be able to judge that and we can't, so...

Look, we all still sin and are all (including you) are all still sinners and still sin sometimes, and instead of admitting it, you want to "classify" sins, so that you can that your sin, if you claim to have any, is not nearly as bad as everyone else's, and that's bad, evil, and wicked... You do not know all the "factors" that it takes to judge rightfully, or justly, or accurately at all... (and neither do I) (No one but God does)...

Then if you can't say some sin is less or worse in order to make yourself look better to your own self in your own eyes, so you can feel better putting yourself above other people, then you try to say, well, it's willful or deliberate or habitual sinning that is really bad, and since "I" Jason do not do that, "I" am better than other people who do that...

Again very wicked and evil intentions, motives, agenda's ect... Sinful ones, in the "worst" kind of sin to God that he really hates the most, the sin that you are always right now committing Jason, and refuse to see and/or acknowledge at all...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Then we tend to focus on outer, outward sins of others, instead of the more important (IMO) inner or inward sins that poison the heart and soul of our own selves, that can be so slick and deceptive that many do not or refuse to (not) see them... They are the most important to God, and are the most dangerous to us... But who cares about that right, we gotta paint ourselves a less of a sinner than others in order to be saved, right...? Cause that's the true path to salvation and true righteousness, correct...? (I am speaking like some others think) (as a man does IOW's)...

And this/that is due to pride and is a thing God hates intensely...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@Jason0047 Look, I don't hate you Jason or your kind, But my job is to get people to first, if they have not already, embrace the "true Gospel message" of Grace and Faith and Love... But in doing that, also not giving anyone the false impression that it's OK to sin, cause it's not...

But in doing that, we have to face the truth that all sin, and all will continue to sin, and that is where I'd like to start out from, both in this thread with people, (like you) and in my own life and out in the world with other people here, still in this world where all sin and all will still continue to sin while they are here in this world and in this place...

I believe you and your kind Jason, are promoting a false Gospel by what you are doing, and that, I am against (and I believe, so is God)...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I asked for verses supporting your contention that Judas was once saved. Your only attempt at addressing the actual question was to add words to one verse and eisegete a psalm. Your subsequent "smorgasboard" never mentioned Judas, and therefore was irrelevant.

I did give you verses suggesting Judas was saved.
Logic even demands that Judas was once saved (and then lost it) because God does not select evil people to be His disciples to save other evil people. God does not call the lost to save the lost. The lost saving the lost is an oxymoron. Judas had to have been saved at one time in order to help save the lost. But you are free to believe that disciples can be lost and still save lost souls if you like.

Also, the other verses are there to show you that it is not just about Judas alone that proves the case that a believer can fall away. Truth does not revolve around how you dictate things. God's Word needs to examined as a whole. You appear to not care about looking at those other verses. You want to make your case just about Judas. Stay safe in that topic because it is not so clear that he was not saved by looking at Judas, right? I got news for you. There are tons of other verses in the Bible that talks about falling away. Please look at the ones I provided for you.

When you add to scripture and interject your beliefs into verses instead of drawing the meaning out of them, it's a fitting description.

Sorry. Just because you state that as so, does not mean it is true. Again, you have to prove your case by pointing to the actual words in Scripture that I brought forth to prove what you say is true here.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, which would be you.

I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink. I presented the evidence. The choice is yours to actually look at it instead of just dismissing it out of hand because of a preconceived belief that you hold to. It's like you are not even looking at the verse and you are hitting the disagree button with no real thought, rhyme or reason. I know why. It's because OSAS is comforting. It's not true. But it is comforting. It's like a security blanket. It's warm and comforting. For me (after looking at Scripture and basic morality): OSAS is like playing with sin and or making light of sin when the Bible says that certain sins can destroy your soul (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46). If you want to take chances with being more carefree about sin by believing in OSAS, then by all means, have at it. For me: My soul, and the souls of others are to precious to safeguard and protect against the dangers of sin and how those sins can destroy our souls.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I did give you verses suggesting Judas was saved.

You added words to one verse and eisegeted one psalm. Hardly compelling.

Again, you have to prove your case by pointing to the actual words in Scripture that I brought forth to prove what you say is true here.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, which would be you.