The great divide...

Oldmantook

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Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
Or did he lose his salvation and needed to have it restored?
The answer is that he lost his salvation upon committing those sins. We also know that David didn't repent of those sins right away. How do we know that? Because God had to send the prophet Nathan to confront him. During that confrontation, in 2 Sam 12:13-14 we read:
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”
Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin; you will not die. 14 But since you have shown total contempt for the Lord by this affair, the son that is born to you must die.”

David first had to confess and repent of his sin. Only after that did Nathan state that the Lord took away his sin. So to answer your question - yes he lost his salvation after sinning only one-time as a murderer and as an adulterer. Only when he repented in front of Nathan was he then forgiven and restored to a right relationship with God. Moreover, he was forgiven because we both know that although David had his share of faults/sins, he was not a habitual sinner. He did not practice adultery or practice murder. He never sinned in those areas again and persevered. That is why he is referred to as a "man after God's own heart." God doesn't demand sinless perfection. He demands repentance when we occasionally sin.

BTW, you didn't answer my question. Since I'm assuming that you consider yourself to be abiding in Christ, do you still sin? Yes or No?
 
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Neogaia777

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You avoid those things to avoid temptation then...? Maybe we should ask ourselves why it tempts us so, especially if and when it is not seeming to do that with everyone else sometimes, a lot of the time actually...

Your not the only one with problems like that Jason, I have them as well, but is it really a problem with them, or us...?

I read a sign in my city that does some "funny" things sometimes, and one day it read, "Lead me not into temptation... I'm usually am pretty good at finding it on my own..."

I could not help but laugh (inside) (though it kinda hurt too) cause it was just so, "honest" and true and real... And, I'm not gonna lie when I say I could relate quite a bit...

Anyway, who or what is the real problem, them or us, or what...?

God Bless!
I mean I don't give into any or all temptations, but there are a few pet peeve things that I do struggle with, and I don't have any problem and certainly don't need any help from the world to find those few pet peeve temptations and give into them sometimes...

God Bless!
 
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Oldmantook

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If you truly knew how truly narrow the road is, you'd realize that all "practice" sin intentionally all the time, some are just not aware of it or that sometimes...

Do sins done habitually in ignorance, count as any kind of sin...? Is ignorance of the Law, or the true strictness of the Law ("full" knowledge of "all" sin) (and "then", not sinning at all), a defense...? or not...?
Heb. 10:26 - If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,
This verse indicates to me that we must be deliberately aware that we are sinning. The fact that we willfully and deliberately continue to choose sinning demonstrates that we have not repented. Our sinful continuing actions demonstrate no repentance = no forgiveness = no salvation. One can hopefully, eventually cease from sinning and repent as did the prodigal son in which case the father forgives but that is a possibility and by no means a certainty that all who keep sinning will repent.
If one is not aware that he/she is sinning, the Holy Spirit will reveal that to the individual in order that repentance can occur.
 
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Neogaia777

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Heb. 10:26 - If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,
This verse indicates to me that we must be deliberately aware that we are sinning. The fact that we willfully and deliberately continue to choose sinning demonstrates that we have not repented. Our sinful continuing actions demonstrate no repentance = no forgiveness = no salvation. One can hopefully, eventually cease from sinning and repent as did the prodigal son in which case the father forgives but that is a possibility and by no means a certainty that all who keep sinning will repent.
If one is not aware that he/she is sinning, the Holy Spirit will reveal that to the individual in order that repentance can occur.
What if one feels their sin that they are currently in and or are struggling with, is not willful or deliberate...?

And does repentance mean "all of it" in this world without ever messing up after that ever...? Is that possible...?

And if one is not aware of the sin they do or are doing, then have they "even started" their walk or journey with God yet, since they still need to be led to repentance...?

God Bless!
 
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Look almost every single one of those scriptures you are twisting saying they say this or that, when they actually do not, and/or your only taking parts of some of them and leaving out other parts of them, and/or your also taking some things out of context...

And, finally, I'm not here to play games...

God Bless!

You have to actually prove why you think I am twisting those verses. Just saying so does not really prove that you are right. Give me a word by word commentary. Show me the context. Show me cross references. Prove your case with the Bible.

As for your statement about playing games:

What do you mean by that?
FIY - I take the Bible very seriously.
 
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I checked that OP and some of that thread... Bull-oney most of it... And not everyone in that thread agrees, and those who disagree make some of their own very good points also... Guess those got overlooked though...

I don't think it is baloney. But you are entitled to your own opinion.
Judas had to have been saved because God does not choose unsaved people to be His disciples. Jesus says, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31). Judas started off as a disciple but he did not continue in the words of Jesus and remain as a disciple.

Jesus defines a disciple by those who continue in his word.
Judas would have had to have been obeying Jesus's words at some point in order to be a disciple in the first place.

You said:
God (and Jesus) knows about people like Judas, and we do not... Nor do I believe any human does or can who is not God, or falls short of being God either...

He is called the son of perdition. Jesus kept all of the disciples except the son of perdition in whom he lost (See John 17:12). You cannot lose something unless you once possess that thing. You cannot lose a book I own, unless I let you borrow it.
 
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Neogaia777

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You have to actually prove why you think I am twisting those verses. Just saying so does not really prove that you are right. Give me a word by word commentary. Show me the context. Show me cross references. Prove your case with the Bible.

As for your statement about playing games:

What do you mean by that?
FIY - I take the Bible very seriously.
For about half of the verses you mention and then you follow up with "says this or that" when even just looking at just the single entire line of scripture quoted, I could say to at least half of them, that it just "simply doesn't say that", what you are quoting then you are saying it says, but in your own words, "it says this or that" when it just "doesn't sorry and I'm no fool, and/or your doing this by only by quoting a "part" of the/a line, then twisting that to fit your views, and, after I found several right off the bat like this, and then how much else you posted and quoted, Look, I'm just not going to address them all specifically, and in detail like you want, K...?

That's what I mean by "games"...

And I'm not even gonna bother to take them one at a time with you at this point... Unless you want "one example" I'll give you just one OK, but after that I'm done, K...?

God Bless!
 
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For about half of the verses you mention and then you follow up with "says this or that" when even just looking at just the single entire line of scripture quoted, I could say to at least half of them, that it just "simply doesn't say that", what you are quoting then you are saying it says, but in your own words, "it says this or that" when it just "doesn't sorry and I'm no fool, and/or your doing this by only by quoting a "part" of the/a line, then twisting that to fit your views, and, after I found several right off the bat like this, and then how much else you posted and quoted, Look, I'm just not going to address them all specifically, and in detail like you want, K...?

That's what I mean by "games"...

And I'm not even gonna bother to take them one at a time with you at this point... Unless you want "one example" I'll give you just one OK, but after that I'm done, K...?

God Bless!

I see no verses in your post; So what you wrote here is not in any way worth my time to read. I will respond if you bring forth Scripture. If not, then from my perspective you are just hitting the disagree button without giving me any good reason why you are correct in your interpretation on those verses.

Oh, and yes; BTW ~ I can say "I am no fool," too.
But a person just saying these words does not mean they are automatically right on their interpretation of Scripture. Again, prove your case that your interpretation is correct by posting the verses and providing commentary, and context, and cross references, etc.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Where does it state he was not. I just get the idea Christ was intelligent enough to know all the disciples hearts were in the right place, and that he would not have kept a heathen around... I mean some of this stuff is just common sense.
I trust you realize that was a non-answer.
 
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Phil 1:21

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I checked that OP and some of that thread... Bull-oney most of it... And not everyone in that thread agrees, and those who disagree make some of their own very good points also... Guess those got overlooked though...

God (and Jesus) knows about people like Judas, and we do not... Nor do I believe any human does or can who is not God, or falls short of being God either...

God Bless!
Much agreed.
 
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Excellent point!

The danger of judigng and trying to say, "always in this case always this, and always in that case that, ect, and it's all black and white and there are never any exceptions to anything, ever...

These are the ideas of closed minds that apparently want to stay closed, and do not want to broaden the horizon's of their own perspective(s)...

God Bless!

There is good, of course, in recognizing one does not know everything. But acknowledging this doesn't necessitate thinking that everything you already know is in some way in error or incomplete. Many times what we know to be true is, in fact, true and needs no significant adjustment or addition of further information to be held as such. In the matter of righteousness and how it impacts our walk with God, I don't think there is any need for me to move closer to the sinless perfection view than I am at present. Certainly, I have heard nothing from those who hold this view (and I have heard a lot from them recently), that gives me any good reason to adjust to their legalistic, works-salvation, sinless perfection perspective.

Scripture makes very clear that I am justified, or made righteous, before God, not by my efforts to be righteous (which is works-salvation that Ephesians 2:9-10, Romans 3:20 and Titus 3:5 flatly deny) but by placing my trust in Christ as my Saviour and Lord.

Acts 13:37-39
37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Romans 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe...


Romans 3:24
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,


Romans 3:27-28
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


And so on. Good works, whether they are provoked by a moral command of the OT Mosaic law or not, are impotent in justifying anyone before God. The Israelites had been trying to obey God and sustain a relationship with Him through that obedience for many centuries and had found they were utterly incapable of doing so. The law of God ended up condemning them, exposing their moral weakness over and over again. The record of the OT, then, makes amply clear that Man cannot, by obedience to God's commands, work his way to God. And so, through Christ, God made a way for Man to be reconciled to Himself that didn't depend upon Man's success in obeying Him. As the verses above explain, Man's righteousness, his justification before God, would now come by faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord.

Now, some would contend that this means of justification only secures one's "initial" salvation (a phrase that never appears in Scripture) and that thereafter one must be sinlessly perfect in order to remain saved. But this is just works-salvation one-step removed that the Bible denies is possible (see above). Salvation is not a work of Man but of God (John 6:44; 2 Timothy 2:25-26) and what God accomplishes in bringing us into His family cannot be undone by the will or effort of Man (John 10:28-29).

One of the serious problems with the sinless perfection view is that it exposes a very low view of God's holy perfection and far too weak a view of human sin. God has never ever had the slightest tinge of wickedness in Him. "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all," the apostle John wrote. (1 John 1:5) But we are entirely comfortable in sin. We are born cursed by Adam's sin, inheritors of a nature bent always toward evil. We make a friend of sin; we sin reflexively and habitually; we glory in sin, even. When we look at God, then, and try to understand His holiness properly, we will always tend to diminish it, make it weaker than it is and thus more palatable to our sin-saturated hearts, and in so doing subtly accommodate our own wickedness.

The truth is that no one this side of the grave will ever be sinlessly perfect. We all have sin buried so deep in us, sin that has become so much a part of the fiber of who we are, sin that is so subtle and deceptive that but for God we will not ever see it for what it is (Jeremiah 17:9). And it is precisely because this is so that we all must have the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us. Only His righteousness, perfect and unchanging, will satisfy God.

It is because Christ's righteousness is perfect and unchanging, and God accepts us on the basis of our being clothed in his righteousness (Ephesians 1:6-7; Ephesians 4:24; Galatians 3:27), that we never lose our acceptance with God no matter what we do. So it is that the apostle Paul wrote,

Romans 5:19-21
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds in and through our Saviour, Jesus Christ. And so we are always acceptable to God. Our sin cannot exceed the super-abundant grace of God in Christ.

So, what, then, of all the verses in Scripture that seems to suggest that our righteous living is integral to our salvation? Well, I have gone back and forth with the sinless perfection advocates in many threads on this site about this subject. Feel free to look them up! I'd be writing all night trying to account for all of the verses (many used illegitimately) that get thrown up as support for the sinless perfection, works-salvation doctrine.
 
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You avoid those things to avoid temptation then...? Maybe we should ask ourselves why it tempts us so, especially if and when it is not seeming to do that with everyone else sometimes, a lot of the time actually...

Your not the only one with problems like that Jason, I have them as well, but is it really a problem with them, or us...?

I read a sign in my city that does some "funny" things sometimes, and one day it read, "Lead me not into temptation... I'm usually am pretty good at finding it on my own..."

I could not help but laugh (inside) (though it kinda hurt too) cause it was just so, "honest" and true and real... And, I'm not gonna lie when I say I could relate quite a bit...

Anyway, who or what is the real problem, them or us, or what...?

God Bless!

What you said here is not clear to me. I have no idea what you are actually talking about. Please try to keep your thoughts focused on Scripture please instead offering your own thoughts.

Luke 10:25-28 says that you have to love God and love your neighbor to inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:17-19 says that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments and Jesus lists such commands as: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc. Do you disagree with these portions of Scripture in what they plainly say? If so, then how do you explain them?
 
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Neogaia777

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I don't think it is baloney. But you are entitled to your own opinion.
Judas had to have been saved because God does not choose unsaved people to be His disciples. Jesus says, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31). Jesus started off as a disciple but he did not continue in the words of Jesus and remain as a disciple.

Jesus defines a disciple by those who continue in his word.



He is called the son of perdition. Jesus kept all of the disciples except the son of perdition in whom he lost (See John 17:12). You cannot lose something unless you once possess that thing. You cannot lose a book I own, unless I let you borrow it.
Does God know who will become saved say, later on in life, from their birth, and not to mention "everything in between"...? I mean he does know that right, and he's not being deceptive or false or fake in any way, IOW's he has no reason to pretend or put on any kind of show for us, or be false with his emotions, but God knows from a person's being born if they will be saved before they die, from the time all and everyone, and each one of us are born, right...?

So What Does God think about this that we are discussing, about salvation, having it, never having it, getting it, losing it, ect, getting it back, ect... How does any of that really even apply (to him)...?

God knows hearts Jason he knows thoughts, intentions, motives, purposes, agenda's, feelings and emotions, of the heart, mind, soul, and the entire equation or program of the combination of all those things, the "human equation", all of the factors, IOW's, the stuff needed for good judging of us humans (or other living beings)... How in the "what" are we supposed to know all of that and all about that...?

"How is it that the Q are able to handle time and space so well, and us so badly...?" Answer: "We might find out one day that the equation for space and time, is far simpler than the human equation", or equation of all beings that live that are considered truly conscious and truly among the living, and yes, I mean beings that feel... "Human" equation is not a broad enough term... How we are alike...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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What you said here is not clear to me. I have no idea what you are actually talking about. Please try to keep your thoughts focused on Scripture please instead offering your own thoughts.

Luke 10:25-28 says that you have to love God and love your neighbor to inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:17-19 says that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments and Jesus lists such commands as: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc. Do you disagree with these verses in what they plainly say? If so, then how do you explain them?
Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31, Acts of the Apostles 15:8-11, Romans 10:9, Ephesians 2:8, "by faith" throughout the book of Hebrews, how much else do you want...?

God Bless!
 
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Does God know who will become saved say, later on in life, from their birth, and not to mention "everything in between"...? I mean he does know that right, and he's not being deceptive or false or fake in any way, IOW's he has no reason to pretend or put on any kind of show for us, or be false with his emotions, but God knows from a person's being born if they will be saved before they die, from the time all and everyone, and each one of us are born, right...?

So What Does God think about this that we are discussing, about salvation, having it, never having it, getting it, losing it, ect, getting it back, ect... How does any of that really even apply (to him)...?

God knows hearts Jason he knows thoughts, intentions, motives, purposes, agenda's, feelings and emotions, of the heart, mind, soul, and the entire equation or program of the combination of all those things, the "human equation", all of the factors, IOW's, the stuff needed for good judging of us humans (or other living beings)... How in the "what" are we supposed to know all of that and all about that...?

"How is it that the Q are able to handle time and space so well, and us so badly...?" Answer: "We might find out one day that the equation for space and time, is far simpler than the human equation", or equation of all beings that live that are considered truly conscious and truly among the living, and yes, I mean beings that feel... "Human" equation is not a broad enough term... How we are alike...

God Bless!

Well, there are no entities known as the Q. Star Trek is just a fictional TV show.
Please stop quoting it like it some kind of factual or godly thing.
Gene (the creator of Star Trek was an atheist).
In fact, to make matters worse, Star Trek is a sin filled TV show. Why do you think a Christian should watch something that promotes sexual immorality, atheism, Evolution, new age things, etc.?

Anyways, unless you post Scripture instead of Star Trek, I will leave you be.

May God's goodness be upon you this fine evening (even I disagree with your beliefs strongly).
 
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Neogaia777

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May God's goodness be upon you this fine evening (even I disagree with your beliefs strongly).

What am I supposed to say, "Sorry God" to you, not going to happen, and even if that was an error or typo, I still wonder why you made it in the first place if it was a mistake or typo or error...

Is something in you trying to speak to me, without your knowledge apparently, and, if so, what is that something...?

God Bless!
 
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Maria Billingsley

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There is a rift, a divide among Christians, one party says it is impossible to be sinlessly perfect and not ever sin at all, ect, ect, and seriously doubt anyone else who thinks otherwise, especially those who say or may claim to have achieved it themselves, these ones this party hates...

The other party worries about this making, even people like them, "give up" on a battle and struggle against sins and wonder what the point or even trying is, why not just give into every single impulse to sin and completely give up on the struggle against sin... They hate others that they perceive as sinners who sin way more than they do, and they hate them because they can seem to get away with more, ect, and accuse them of using Grace as a license to sin, but are really upset with them because they don't think they put up any kind of fight or struggle against sin...

The former party (above) are known as Grace, and faith people, I guess you could say, while the latter party is considered like Law, and works people...

I think this is a great divide, so, can we solve or at least resolve it...?

About the latter's concerns, In a favorite Star Trek TNG episode of mine, called "The Offspring" Data creates a child android, her name is Lal... She is upset about something and ask her Father, Data, why do you still try to be human or like humans if it's impossible...?" Cause for a mechanical man, or android, to become like a, especially flesh and blood human, is considered impossible even in the age of Star Trek... So, she says/asks, "why"...? Data says that, "It does not matter if we ever fully meet our eventual goal (100% sinless perfection), (or to be like God) the "effort" (trying, struggling, fighting) (against sin) (trying to be like God) yields it own rewards (from God, or the way God has designed it) (to work)...

"The effort always yields it's own rewards"

Then he said, "We must strive (or struggle) to more (or better) than what we are" (or were yesterday)...

And we should not let that go...

Just because it is nigh impossible, does not mean we should not try or fight or struggle or put up a fight, or whatever (for it) (the goal) (of 100% sinless perfection) (and not even fight or struggle with sin anymore)...

God Bless!

It is not sin that separates us from God, it is the ignorance of not knowing that sin keeps us from "the walk". When you are truly saved, your sin will be like a milestone. This is what the Holy Spirit shows us as we are sanctified during our very difficult walk with our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
 
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There is a rift, a divide among Christians, one party says it is impossible to be sinlessly perfect and not ever sin at all, ect, ect, and seriously doubt anyone else who thinks otherwise, especially those who say or may claim to have achieved it themselves, these ones this party hates.

God's children are born into sin just as fish are born wet.
None are dry, no not one.

It's no one person's fault they are born into sin.
The trick is to look forward to being dry some day.
 
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Neogaia777

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God's children are born into sin just as fish are born wet.
None are dry, no not one.

It's no one person's fault they are born into sin.
The trick is to look forward to being dry some day.
I like that, thanks...

God Bless!
 
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