The great divide...

[Kenny'sID]

Look you guys can argue doctrine/false doctrine all you want, and till your blue in the face, K...

But, are you gonna help me, and perhaps others also, address the concerns that follow us never being able to be sinlessly perfect...? or not...?

Much thanks if you wish to participate,

God Bless!

That's like addressing whether or not we need to breath in order to stay alive, it's just a given, we all sin. There is no absolute perfection, not at this stage anyway, and maybe never.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Righteous Judgement only judges when it is absolutely necessary, and even then does it begrudgingly, and certainly does not not judge to elevate or separate their own selves from the rest of the herd so as to be above them... Is that righteous Judgement, judging at the wrong or inappropriate and unnecessary times, or out of the wrong heart motives or reasons...? Cause that would actually be sin wouldn't it...?

Did Paul say to have no fellowship with sinners...? Or just those who produce or are producing the "unfruitful works of darkness"...? And just who do you think, or which group of people do you think Paul meant were of this, or were doing this, or were producing this...? Maybe what it says in Ephesians 5:1-10, before verse 11...? But How many fail already in just the word "covet", I find it unusual that it mentions that a lot... And then, "proving what is acceptable to the Lord..." What is acceptable to him...?

Making strenuous effort to always be constantly sinless in your own strength...? Or is that, or could that be "missing the point"...? And if so, what point is that...? or what point is it not...?

God Bless!

I am merely judging a wrong belief. We can do that here. Any expression of opinion about what you feel is right and wrong is a judgment. Your saying that we cannot judge but only in extreme circumstances is still a judgment. So your argument in saying that "we cannot judge" self destructs because you yourself are judging now.

 

[Neogaia777]

David was not saved when he was committing his sins of adultery and murder. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Leviticus 20:10 says that one act of adultery is all it takes to be an adulterer. Proverbs 6:32 says that he that commits adultery destroys his own soul. Jesus says that if one were to look upon a woman in lust, they have committed adultery already in their heart and they are in danger of having their whole body being cast into hell fire. Jesus did not say that they had to keep looking at many women in lust multiple times to be in danger of hell fire. Why do you think David needed to confess of his sins? Read Psalms 51. He was confessing so as to be forgiven of his sins. If a person is saved, they do not need to be forgiven of their sins.

Look almost every single one of those scriptures you are twisting saying they say this or that, when they actually do not, and/or your only taking parts of some of them and leaving out other parts of them, and/or your also taking some things out of context...

And, finally, I'm not here to play games...

God Bless!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Where in scripture does it state Judas was ever saved?

Where does it state he was not. I just get the idea Christ was intelligent enough to know all the disciples hearts were in the right place, and that he would not have kept a heathen around... I mean some of this stuff is just common sense.

 

[Neogaia777]

That's like addressing whether or not we need to breath in order to stay alive, it's just a given, we all sin. There is no absolute perfection, not at this stage anyway, and maybe never.

Maybe, maybe not... all and anything is possible with God... but I've never seen nor heard of anyone ever really doing except Jesus alone though...

I guess if we really want to know what it looks like, then we are to look at him, but problem is, everyone seems to see him differently or in a different way...? How do we resolve that issue...?

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047, What does it mean to you to be "in the world, but not of it"...?

God Bless!

Followers of Jesus Christ are merely in the world (i.e. meaning: They are physically present in the world), but they are not of the world in regards to its values (See John 17:14-15). For we are told to not love the world (i.e. the world system the world's values), and the things in the world, for if any loves the world, the love of the father is not in them (See 1 John 2:15).

16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:16-17).

 

[Neogaia777]

Where does it state he was not. I just get the idea Christ was intelligent enough to know all the disciples hearts were in the right place, and that he would not have kept a heathen around... I mean some of this stuff is just common sense.

Man we gotta be careful, huh...?

I think everything concerning a person's eternal fate, or state of salvation, or any of that, heaven of hell most especially... We just gotta be really careful don't we...?

@Jason0047, can you judge Judas, or "any" of these things, with righteous judgment...? And if you can, tell or show us please...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Followers of Jesus Christ are merely in the world (i.e. meaning: They are physically present in the world), but they are not of the world in regards to its values (See John 17:14-15). For we are told to not love the world (i.e. the world system the world's values), and the things in the world, for if any loves the world, the love of the father is not in them (See 1 John 2:15).

16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:16-17).

Are we to never ever be "involved" with the world or people from, or in the world, or belonging to it's system(s)...?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047 , can you judge Judas, or "any" of these things, with righteous judgment...? And if you can, tell or show us please...

God Bless!

I already gave you a thread to check out.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

 

[Kenny'sID]

Maybe, maybe not... all and anything is possible with God... but I've never seen nor heard of anyone ever really doing except Jesus alone though...

Agree.

I guess if we really want to know what it looks like, then we are to look at him, but problem is, everyone seems to see him differently or in a different way...? How do we resolve that issue...?

You may be repeating yourself, but please clarify for me the two different ways we see him. I see him as the way you mention, sinless, and we should listen to all he says and try to do the same...simply...just like a child might do with his earthly dad.

The other way?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are we to never ever be "involved" with the world or people from, or in the world, or belonging to it's system(s)...?

I am talking about the sinful aspects of the world system.
Most today in the world find it normal to love the people of the world that are not truly Christian and make them idols. One example would be getting involved in politics. But if a Christian were to be a politician, it will force him to make sinful choices that violates the commands of Jesus. He will have to turn a blind eye to sinful things. There are many man made laws he will have to pass that gives rights to sinful institutions or businesses like the inappropriate content industry, gambling, legalized pot, sinful movies, sinful music, sinful comics, sinful books, etc.

Another example would be loving the secular entertainment that comes from the world system. Yet, these movies, and songs are filled with many sinful things.

Another example would be loving the way of the world system of the average joe who drinks excessively and screams in excitement over people who make millions of dollars by throwing a ball around. It's joining in on what everyone else does in the world by getting drunk, and getting excited over things that do not truly effect our own life.

One day, the antichrist will come and he will enforce the mark by the fact that you cannot buy or sell without the mark. He will also be a part of the sinful world system because he is trying to get people to do something sinful.

In other words, any world system that influences you to sin should be avoided at all costs. Love not the world. Neither the things in the world.

Granted, we are to obey the laws of the land (Romans 13) if they do not conflict with God's laws. But we should not openly join in on what sinful things the world does because sin can destroy our souls.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where in scripture does it state Judas was ever saved?

Check out this thread here:

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

 

[Neogaia777]

Agree.



You may be repeating yourself, but please clarify for me the two different ways we see him. I see him as the way you mention, sinless, and we should listen to all he says and try to do the same...simply...just like a child might do with his earthly dad.

The other way?

I mean that some see him as warrior or a conqueror with a strength of will that couldn't be matched and we are to try and match it, to follow him, and then there are some who see him as the always ever loving and patient and always kind and and never ever mean and always forgiving one, or the "fluffy" Jesus as some call it/him, and then there is "everything in between"...

God Bless!

 

[RaymondG]

Except God works through people, and one who has been given Truth has been given a lot and has a responsibility to that Truth... For better or for worse, richer of poorer, ect, till death do you part... And that will involve people, or other people as well... God is all about people, and we must be also... but yet, trying to do it without sinning; that is, out of love alone...

God Bless!

Yes, and I believe that One who God is working through would not be on any of the sides mentioned in your OP, hating the other. They would be totally separate and set apart, not taking personal offense to words God gives them to speak.....as it is God who hardens and softens the heart.

I dont believe those who take offense or are easily offend can be chosen deliver the Word....If one completely dies to themself and has complete control of their heart and mind, there would be no one to offend....How can one lead others, when they aren't in control of their own house?

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, and I believe that One who God is working through would not be on any of the sides mentioned in your OP, hating the other. They would be totally separate and set apart, not taking personal offense to words God gives them to speak.....as it is God who hardens and softens the heart.

I dont believe those who take offense or are easily offend can be chosen deliver the Word....If one completely dies to themself and has complete control of their heart and mind, there would be no one to offend....How can one lead others, when they aren't in control of their own house?

First I do have to ask you if your trying to elude to me or someone like me in any way, cause about the part of not ever offending anybody; and if they do they are not in control of themselves or their own lives, I don't think that's very accurate, or Biblical...?

However, that being said, I do not easily take offense, but for some reason, many people seem to offended by me sometimes, but most of the time I just think that they are way to easily offended...

But we all have to watch out for offense and being offended, but, not NOT being offensive, especially to the world, or those steeped in false doctrines, if and only if it is necessary, for the Kingdom of God...

That's where and when we have to be bold and speak boldly about and in the truth, which is most of the time very offensive to a bunch of very (overly) sensitive people...

And if it is truly for a good and right and just cause or for the Kingdom of God, what man does to us due to being offended, if we know we are right, God will always come through and make it right for us, in whatever way, form, or in whatever world that comes to us from, or in, or with...

Don't go out of your way to be offensive, or be offensive just to be offensive, but lets keep things in their proper perspective here, "all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer (some) persecution" (of some kind), cause the truth is, by it's very nature, offensive to those not truly in Christ Jesus, which is a lot of people right now...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Check out this thread here:

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

I checked that OP and some of that thread... Bull-oney most of it... And not everyone in that thread agrees, and those who disagree make some of their own very good points also... Guess those got overlooked though...

God (and Jesus) knows about people like Judas, and we do not... Nor do I believe any human does or can who is not God, or falls short of being God either...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I am talking about the sinful aspects of the world system.
Most today in the world find it normal to love the people of the world that are not truly Christian and make them idols. One example would be getting involved in politics. But if a Christian were to be a politician, it will force him to make sinful choices that violates the commands of Jesus. He will have to turn a blind eye to sinful things. There are many man made laws he will have to pass that gives rights to sinful institutions or businesses like the inappropriate content industry, gambling, legalized pot, sinful movies, sinful music, sinful comics, sinful books, etc.

Another example would be loving the secular entertainment that comes from the world system. Yet, these movies, and songs are filled with many sinful things.

Another example would be loving the way of the world system of the average joe who drinks excessively and screams in excitement over people who make millions of dollars by throwing a ball around. It's joining in on what everyone else does in the world by getting drunk, and getting excited over things that do not truly effect our own life.

One day, the antichrist will come and he will enforce the mark by the fact that you cannot buy or sell without the mark. He will also be a part of the sinful world system because he is trying to get people to do something sinful.

In other words, any world system that influences you to sin should be avoided at all costs. Love not the world. Neither the things in the world.

Granted, we are to obey the laws of the land (Romans 13) if they do not conflict with God's laws. But we should not openly join in on what sinful things the world does because sin can destroy our souls.

You avoid those things to avoid temptation then...? Maybe we should ask ourselves why it tempts us so, especially if and when it is not seeming to do that with everyone else sometimes, a lot of the time actually...

Your not the only one with problems like that Jason, I have them as well, but is it really a problem with them, or us...?

I read a sign in my city that does some "funny" things sometimes, and one day it read, "Lead me not into temptation... I'm usually am pretty good at finding it on my own..."

I could not help but laugh (inside) (though it kinda hurt too) cause it was just so, "honest" and true and real... And, I'm not gonna lie when I say I could relate quite a bit...

Anyway, who or what is the real problem, them or us, or what...?

God Bless!

 

[RaymondG]

First I do have to ask you if your trying to elude to me or someone like me in any way, cause about the part of not ever offending anybody; and if they do they are not in control of themselves or their own lives, I don't think that's very accurate, or Biblical...?

No, I always only say what I believe for myself. And I was kind of thinking about the people on the two sides in your OP hating the other side. I assumed they had to be offended by the disbelief or disregard to their words.......but it is possible they hate them for a different reason. either way, hate does not seem to be an attribute possessed by one filled with the spirit of Love.

However, that being said, I do not easily take offense, but for some reason, many people seem to offended by me sometimes, but most of the time I just think that they are way to easily offended...

Yes my goal is to not feel offense period....for this, CF is a good testing ground for me..... I get some serious replies here and when I am able to take them without offense, I smile, knowing that the spirit of God in working in me and preparing me for greater....as my old self has to be completely out of the way before I can unbiasedly spread gifts to all man.

Wouldnt want to end up in a fish because I was offended by the group of people God told me to minister to......

But we all have to watch out for offense and being offended, but, NOT being offensive, especially to the world, or those steeped in false doctrines, if and only if it is necessary, for the Kingdom of God...

Yes we should follow peace with all men....holiness without, no man shall see the Lord....

That's where and when we have to be bold and speak boldly about and in the truth, which is most of the time very offensive to a bunch of very (overly) sensitive people...

Yes when speaking truth, one must not worry about the sensitivity of others. I personally still apologize for offenses given, even when I dont understand or see the offense. Them saying they felt it, is enough for me to desire to ease their emotional suffering......

And if it is truly for a good and right and just cause or for the Kingdom of God, what man does to us due to being offended, if we know we are right, God will always come through and make it right for us, in whatever way, form, or in whatever world that comes to us from, or in, or with...

All things work together for the good to them that love the lord......

Don't go out of your way to be offensive, or be offensive just to be offensive, but lets keep things in their proper perspective here, "all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer (some) persecution" (of some kind), cause the truth is, by it's very nature, offensive to those not truly in Christ Jesus, which is a lot of people right now...

Yes and when we find this presecustion.....we count it all joy......hopefully forgiving them, knowing that they dont know what they are doing.......and most are doing what they believe is right.....

 

[Kenny'sID]

I mean that some see him as warrior or a conqueror with a strength of will that couldn't be matched and we are to try and match it, to follow him, and then there are some who see him as the always ever loving and patient and always kind and and never ever mean and always forgiving one, or the "fluffy" Jesus as some call it/him, and then there is "everything in between"...

God Bless!

He definitely tends towards all of those. He's just but fair. He/God, like our earthly dad can often seem kind and unkind...it takes both all depending on who we are/how we act... it's up to us what we get from them.

Sometimes people just want to see a loving side as that gives them the excuse they need to act like they want, and pretend "Jesus is so loving how could he send me to hell for this, no way".

I kid you not, I've seen it before with people, and it's uncanny what they do. Some create their own truth from the bible because it works for them/it's what they choose over the truth so it becomes the truth to them, and they just refuse to believe the "Just" end of the spectrum because that adds requirements that they'd rather not bother with.

And many feel it's a good enough deal in spite of the requirements. And as good deals go, it really is in my view.

 

[Neogaia777]

No, I always only say what I believe for myself. And I was kind of thinking about the people on the two sides in your OP hating the other side. I assumed they had to be offended by the disbelief or disregard to their words.......but it is possible they hate them for a different reason. either way, hate does not seem to be an attribute possessed by one filled with the spirit of Love.


Yes my goal is to not feel offend period....for this, CF is a good testing ground for me..... I get some serious replies hear and when I am able to take them without offense, I smile, knowing that the spirit of God in working in me and preparing me for greater....as my old self has to be completely out of the way before I can unbiasedly spread gifts to all man.

Wouldnt want to end up in a fish because I was offended by the group of people God told me to minister to......


Yes we should follow peace with all men....holiness without, no man shall see the Lord....


Yes when speaking truth, one must not worry about the sensitivity of others. I personally still apologize for offenses given, even whether I dont understand or see the offense. Them saying they felt it, is enough for me to desire to ease their emotional suffering......



All things work together for the good to them that love the lord......


Yes and when we find this presecustion.....we count it all joy......hopefully forgiving them, knowing that they dont know what they are doing.......and most are doing what they believe is right.....

Good words man, good post...

God Bless!