Discussion The great Contradiction of the apostate church .

[Gregory Thompson]

@Alithis -

1) The apostate church according to whom?
2) Apostle Paul wasn't talking like that near the end of Romans 7, so I doubt it's that simple.

 

[Alithis]

You failed to complete the sentence. It is "I'm only a sinner SAVED BY GRACE". To be saved by grace means to be declared a saint, and to be set free from the power of sin, Hell, Hades, death, and Satan.

one - what is he speaking to leading up to that sentence ? it is not a stand alone sentence as it is so often used .
two- we are indeed set free . thus the use of the sentence just a sinner saved cannot be used to excuse continuing to practice sin . because one saved from drowning is no longer drowning . thus one saved from sin is no longer sinning .
so those that are are either .. doing so willfully OR are not yet saved from it .

 

[Alithis]

@Alithis -

1) The apostate church according to whom?
2) Apostle Paul wasn't talking like that near the end of Romans 7, so I doubt it's that simple.

1 ..the title is "a catch phrase" a headline to provoke into reading the thread .. it worked

2 .. Paul did not continue in the practice of sin . promise you .

 

[Job8]

one - what is he speaking to leading up to that sentence ? it is not a stand alone sentence as it is so often used .

It does not matter. All saints are sinners saved by grace and all are justified by grace through faith.

 

[jiminpa]

so you see .. you needed to' realize' the victory .. you had no intent to refuse to forgive .. you were not willfully in sin .

"Realize," make it real, yes. "Realize," become aware of, no. There was a battle, and sometimes I still have to fight it, over a decade later, but it is a great example of how grace works. At first I didn't even want to forgive him, but I wanted to want to. That was enough. Every time I recognize unforgiveness I have to take it to God, admit it as sin, and sincerely pray for the guy's blessing.

 

[Alithis]

"Realize," make it real, yes. "Realize," become aware of, no. There was a battle, and sometimes I still have to fight it, over a decade later, but it is a great example of how grace works. At first I didn't even want to forgive him, but I wanted to want to. That was enough. Every time I recognize unforgiveness I have to take it to God, admit it as sin, and sincerely pray for the guy's blessing.

Sure..the process continues in your obedience. (Refer earler posts in thread )

 

[Alithis]

It does not matter. All saints are sinners saved by grace and all are justified by grace through faith.

If they are saved then are they still drowning?
If they are saved from servitude to sin are they still knowingly serving it.
The scriptures say if they are..they are "of the devil"
So we see it matters very much.

 

[Job8]

If they are saved then are they still drowning?
If they are saved from servitude to sin are they still knowingly serving it.
The scriptures say if they are..they are "of the devil"
So we see it matters very much.

Your arguments have no merit whatsoever. Unless you can establish that a saint was never a sinner, you are simply trying to confuse people. Three things should be crystal clear:

1. Saints are former sinners.

2. Saints do not have to keep sinning.

3. Saints will not be sinless, and must not fool themselves.

 

[amariselle]

1 ..the title is "a catch phrase" a headline to provoke into reading the thread .. it worked

2 .. Paul did not continue in the practice of sin . promise you .

"So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it."

"I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin." (Romans 7:14-25)

Paul was well aware of how he continued to fall short, and the ongoing struggle he faced in regard to his sinful nature. He clearly understood that without Jesus he was lost. We also must understand this.

As Christians we should be aware, as Paul was, of the sinful nature we have in us. Paul continued to struggle with this, even after his dramatic and life changing encounter with Jesus. Paul rightly recognized that there was another "power" that was at "war" with his mind, making him a "slave" to the sin that was still in him. It's an ongoing spiritual battle that we all face.

And because we will still mess up, even as Christians, we need to continually come to God and repent, seeking Him in all areas of our lives.

Being a Christian and following Christ is a lifelong commitment. It's not a one time conversion experience and then we just go on our way, with no more need to repent and turn to God. It's a journey, and it's not exactly the same for any two people.

 

[Alithis]

"So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it."

"I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin." (Romans 7:14-25)

Paul was well aware of how he continued to fall short, and the ongoing struggle he faced in regard to his sinful nature. He clearly understood that without Jesus he was lost. We also must understand this.

As Christians we should be aware, as Paul was, of the sinful nature we have in us. Paul continued to struggle with this, even after his dramatic and life changing encounter with Jesus. Paul rightly recognized that there was another "power" that was at "war" with his mind, making him a "slave" to the sin that was still in him. It's an ongoing spiritual battle that we all face.

And because we will still mess up, even as Christians, we need to continually come to God and repent, seeking Him in all areas of our lives.

Being a Christian and following Christ is a lifelong commitment. It's not a one time conversion experience and then we just go on our way, with no more need to repent and turn to God. It's a journey, and it's not exactly the same for any two people.

i almost laugh at the way you STOP at that statement (if it were not so deviated from the truth and serious )and do not go on to read that he is speaking of a time BEFORE .
'you" might be a slave to sin. I am not . If you are a slave to sin now that Christ has redeemed you then you are not yet serving Christ .. but serving sin and if you are serving sin you are a servant of sin . and not yet saved from it .
if it has dominion over you then you have not yet been born again of the spirit God .

the truth of the matter -is somewhat uncomfortable for those who continue to DO what they know is sin .

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. "

 

[Alithis]

Your arguments have no merit whatsoever. Unless you can establish that a saint was never a sinner, you are simply trying to confuse people. Three things should be crystal clear:

1. Saints are former sinners.

2. Saints do not have to keep sinning.

3. Saints will not be sinless, and must not fool themselves.

actually your agreeing with me ..you just jumped to quick .. i never stated the last one ..you assumed it .

 

[amariselle]

i almost laugh at the way you STOP at that statement (if it were not so deviated from the truth and serious )and do not go on to read that he is speaking of a time BEFORE .
'you" might be a slave to sin. I am not . If you are a slave to sin now that Christ has redeemed you then you are not yet serving Christ .. but serving sin and if you are serving sin you are a servant of sin . and not yet saved from it .
if it has dominion over you then you have not yet been born again of the spirit God .

the truth of the matter -is somewhat uncomfortable for those who continue to DO what they know is sin .

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. "

I think you have missed Paul's point entirely. He was clearly speaking in the present tense, of his ongoing struggle with his still present sinful nature. Yes, he was aware that he was no longer under sin's curse, or condemned by his sin, thanks to Jesus Christ, but he recognized and was aware of the battle with sin nonetheless.

For me, being a follower of Christ is a journey. I am always learning to trust in and rely on Jesus more and more. We always have more to learn in this life, and we can always do better, at least, I know I can.

Blessings

~Amariselle

 

[Alithis]

I think you have missed Paul's point entirely. He was clearly speaking in the present tense, of his ongoing struggle with his still present sinful nature. Yes, he was aware that he was no longer under sin's curse, or condemned by his sin, thanks to Jesus Christ, but he recognized and was aware of the battle with sin nonetheless.

For me, being a follower of Christ is a journey. I am always learning to trust in and rely on Jesus more and more. We always have more to learn in this life, and we can always do better, at least, I know I can.

Blessings

~Amariselle

well you do like to talk about the sins of others ..
so what sin does Paul continue to practice since you refuse thus far to mention your own ones .? what sin does Paul carry on doing ? does he continue to persecute beat and murder believers ..umm nope , does he commit adultery ? nope , does he rob congregation (steal ) .. nope does he walk in disobedience to god .. nope .. what sin it your accusing Paul of continuing to practice ...? and upon what do you base it ? since he speaks of his state BEFORE he knew Christ and preaches that sin is not to be allowed dominion in our lives and preached that if we choose to do it(not forced beyond will) , we make it our master again .. your accusation of hi means -according to you , he absolutely contradicted every thing he preached -which he did not .but your accusing him of it by implication and based upon what ? nothing but a desire to justify ones own continuance in sin.
you haven't addressed anything in my reply really . you've just jumped topic . don't want to deal with it i guess .

if Jesus has set you free , what power id greater then HIM to make you go back and serve that which you are set free from ? what are you saying is greater then GOD that can FORCE you to disobey ..? i will tell you - NOTHING is !.. if you disobey him knowingly it is because you want to .. you love sin more the you love the lord Jesus . and he will say ,if you don't stop it .. depart fro me you worker of iniquity ,i do not know you .. -his words not mine .

repent

 

[Freedom Now]

Good old Romans 7, the justification chapter for holding on to the old man.....

When read correctly, then you will notice who it is addressing, man under the law,
walking in carnality.

According to Romans 6, the old man, the carnal man, the flesh was crucified, dead and buried
with Christ, then we are raised with Him to newness of life, a new creation, born anew.
When dead, we are freed from sin.

Let me ask you a simple question.....

According to Romans 6, is one raised to newness of life before one is crucified, dead and buried?


Or as Jesus taught...

If one does not lose his life (old man dead and buried), he will not have life (raised to newness of life,
a new creation, a new man).


2 Corinthians 5
Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation, THE OLD HAS PASSED AWAY.
Behold the NEW has come.


Let us take old of TRUTH, instead of listening corrupt doctrines from preacher and teachers who
speak from their own understanding.


May God open our eyes and ears to understand.

 

[amariselle]

well you do like to talk about the sins of others ..
so what sin does Paul continue to practice since you refuse thus far to mention your own ones .? what sin does Paul carry on doing ? does he continue to persecute beat and murder believers ..umm nope , does he commit adultery ? nope , does he rob congregation (steal ) .. nope does he walk in disobedience to god .. nope .. what sin it your accusing Paul of continuing to practice ...? and upon what do you base it ? since he speaks of his state BEFORE he knew Christ and preaches that sin is not to be allowed dominion in our lives and preached that if we choose to do it(not forced beyond will) , we make it our master again .. your accusation of hi means -according to you , he absolutely contradicted every thing he preached -which he did not .but your accusing him of it by implication and based upon what ? nothing but a desire to justify ones own continuance in sin.
you haven't addressed anything in my reply really . you've just jumped topic . don't want to deal with it i guess .

if Jesus has set you free , what power id greater then HIM to make you go back and serve that which you are set free from ? what are you saying is greater then GOD that can FORCE you to disobey ..? i will tell you - NOTHING is !.. if you disobey him knowingly it is because you want to .. you love sin more the you love the lord Jesus . and he will say ,if you don't stop it .. depart fro me you worker of iniquity ,i do not know you .. -his words not mine .

repent

You are shamelessly arrogant, condescending and condemning in your words, I wonder how it is that you think it is right for you to condemn someone you know NOTHING about?

Sin is NOT my master, and I never ONCE said it was, so your bold accusations are entirely false and completely unfounded. I have been saved, set free and redeemed by Christ, thankfully you do not get to judge me, or I guess I'd likely be eternally lost.

I quoted Paul's own words, and I "accused" him of nothing.

It must be nice up there on your high horse of judgement and derision. And it must be nice to never once make any mistakes. Good for you.

And now I will not reply further. I am not interested in conversing with someone who is not interested in discussion, but would instead prefer to look down their nose in judgement of a fellow Christian.

Have a nice night.

~Amariselle

 

[Alithis]

You are shamelessly arrogant, condescending and condemning in your words, I wonder how it is that you think it is right for you to condemn someone you know NOTHING about?

Sin is NOT my master, and I never ONCE said it was, so your bold accusations are entirely false and completely unfounded. I have been saved, set free and redeemed by Christ, thankfully you do not get to judge me, or I guess I'd likely be eternally lost.

I quoted Paul's own words, and I "accused" him of nothing.

It must be nice up there on your high horse of judgement and derision. And it must be nice to never once make any mistakes. Good for you.

And now I will not reply further. I am not interested in conversing with someone who is not interested in discussion, but would instead prefer to look down their nose in judgement of a fellow Christian.

Have a nice night.

~Amariselle

interesting response..
you implied paul continued to sin.then you could not show that from scripture.then you stated directly that you cant stop sinning because your a slave to sin..your words.but then refuse to state what sin.
then when i point out the scripture on both topics you go into an angry little rant.but still do not adress the contradiction. If you are redeemed and as such free from the power of sin, then why do you continue to do that which you know to be sin ?what compells you beyond your own will?
Nothing. You choose it.
go read 1 john...as a whole.
No one has passed any judgmdnt on you save your own conscience.

 

[Alithis]

Good old Romans 7, the justification chapter for holding on to the old man.....

When read correctly, then you will notice who it is addressing, man under the law,
walking in carnality.

According to Romans 6, the old man, the carnal man, the flesh was crucified, dead and buried
with Christ, then we are raised with Him to newness of life, a new creation, born anew.
When dead, we are freed from sin.

Let me ask you a simple question.....

According to Romans 6, is one raised to newness of life before one is crucified, dead and buried?


Or as Jesus taught...

If one does not lose his life (old man dead and buried), he will not have life (raised to newness of life,
a new creation, a new man).


2 Corinthians 5
Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation, THE OLD HAS PASSED AWAY.
Behold the NEW has come.


Let us take old of TRUTH, instead of listening corrupt doctrines from preacher and teachers who
speak from their own understanding.


May God open our eyes and ears to understand.

Whom are you adressing?

 

[Freedom Now]

Whom are you adressing?

Not sure who all God had in mind to read that post. That is HIS business.

I am just the messenger.

 

[amariselle]

interesting response..
you implied paul continued to sin.then you could not show that from scripture.then you stated directly that you cant stop sinning because your a slave to sin..your words. but then refuse to state what sin.
then when i point out the scripture on both topics you go into an angry little rant.but still do not adress the contradiction. If you are redeemed and as such free from the power of sin, then why do you continue to do that which you know to be sin ?what compells you beyond your own will?
Nothing. You choose it.
go read 1 john...as a whole.
No one has passed any judgmdnt on you save your own conscience.

You are putting words in my mouth and making completely unfounded judgements and inferences. THIS is what I ACTUALLY wrote:

"So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it."

"I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin." (Romans 7:14-25)

Paul was well aware of how he continued to fall short, and the ongoing struggle he faced in regard to his sinful nature. He clearly understood that without Jesus he was lost. We also must understand this.

As Christians we should be aware, as Paul was, of the sinful nature we have in us. Paul continued to struggle with this, even after his dramatic and life changing encounter with Jesus. Paul rightly recognized that there was another "power" that was at "war" with his mind, making him a "slave" to the sin that was still in him. It's an ongoing spiritual battle that we all face.

And because we will still mess up, even as Christians, we need to continually come to God and repent, seeking Him in all areas of our lives.

Being a Christian and following Christ is a lifelong commitment. It's not a one time conversion experience and then we just go on our way, with no more need to repent and turn to God. It's a journey, and it's not exactly the same for any two people.

Where did I "state directly" that I'm a "slave to sin" because I can't stop sinning? You said those were my words, but they are YOUR words. YOU have told me I am a "slave to sin", I never once said that.

What I did say was that repentance is not a one time deal, when we mess up, we must ask the Lord for forgiveness. That does NOT mean we are helpless and under the control of our sin, it means we are aware that there is a very real spiritual battle going on, and we need our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

And why are you so insistent that I tell you what sins I have committed? I have no idea who you are, and I am not about to indulge your apparent desire to know all the ways I have fallen short in my life. (Especially not after you so arrogantly condemned me already) I have fallen short, that is all I will say. But praise and glory be to Jesus Christ my Saviour, I am not a slave to sin, I have been redeemed and reconciled to God.

 

[Alithis]

You are putting words in my mouth and making completely unfounded judgements and inferences. THIS is what I ACTUALLY wrote:



Where did I "state directly" that I'm a "slave to sin" because I can't stop sinning? You said those were my words, but they are YOUR words. YOU have told me I am a "slave to sin", I never once said that.

What I did say was that repentance is not a one time deal, when we mess up, we must ask the Lord for forgiveness. That does NOT mean we are helpless and under the control of our sin, it means we are aware that there is a very real spiritual battle going on, and we need our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

And why are you so insistent that I tell you what sins I have committed? I have no idea who you are, and I am not about to indulge your apparent desire to know all the ways I have fallen short in my life. (Especially not after you so arrogantly condemned me already) I have fallen short, that is all I will say. But praise and glory be to Jesus Christ my Saviour, I am not a slave to sin, I have been redeemed and reconciled to God.

You implied it
And avoided the question.
what sin are you talking about which you cant stop doing because..in your own words you are "only human"
?i dont care what it is..but i do care that you try to self justify its continued practice.

Why are you still only human.?
Those born again are no longer only human.they died and are made a new creation in christ.
lets be honest ..blaming ones chosen action of sin upon ones humanism is huminism ..itd a copout.an excuse ..a lie.
Scripture states God does not allow you to be tempted beyond resistance
and thats the point. We cant blame sin on something else.we do an unrightous act by accident..we choose to do it when we love it more then we love the lord Jesus.if we love him more then we choose to obey him.not disobey him.
thats the point.
its not about he said you said i said..
if Jesus has set you free.. nothing can force you to do an action you know to be sin.you must rebel against god and choose to do that action.
so stop blaming your body.take sond responsibility and cut it out.
repentance is not doing the same thing and asking forgivness each time.thats rebellion.